Question about DX9 +9.1 & R300/350

[BoomAM]

hi,
As most people know, the R300 is now called the radeon9700 and the R350 is a Radeon 9700 updated to the DX9.1 spec and with faster clock speeds.

Will the DX9.1 standard be similar to the DX8.1? ie; not absolutely needed, just a small GFX upgrade to DX, that`ll never get propely used by developers.

all comments welcome.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Well I haven't heard anything about DX9.1, heck DX9.0 isn't even out of beta yet. There certainly isn't anything I can find on M$ site about it. In any case both DX9 and DX9.1 (?) are pretty pointless until there is something to take advantage of them, and I'm talking more than the odd demo or synthetic benchmark.

Don't get me wrong Rad9700 and the DX9 specification are great, but so was DX8 and that's only just begun to be taken advantage of, DX8 certainly wasn't the best reason to buy the original GF3 when it was first released. $400ish and by the time DX8 really began to be beneficial you can get the same card for under $100, a better card for $130 and a hugely better card for $400!

There are a lot of good reasons to purchase a Rad9700 if you don't mind the lack of DX9 applications/games and the huge devaluation which will come by the time DX9 actually proves useful. If your pockets are deep enough then great, if not you won't be missing much by going for a GF3, Rad8500 or GF4TI for between a quarter and a third of the price! Just MHO

 

[BoomAM]

thanx for the reply.

on several websites, cant rememeber which ones, there was a "thing" from both nVidia and MS that the nv30 would be a DX9.1 card.

the reason i ask is because my last 4 video cards are what was considered at the time, budget cards, or low range. (savage4, GF2MX, GF2GTS, GF3 Ti200), admitedly once overclocked they performed better than the next model up, ie, Ti200 @230/510 faster than Ti500.

But they have all been cards that, while capible, start to date in games quickly. i am planning on getting the 9700PRO as a card that will last me much longer than any of my other cards have. Plus a card that can run doom3 smoothly will give me at alot of future proofing.

My mainreason however is that my OC`d Ti200(230/510) cant run the latest and upcoming games at 1280x1024 Max detail smoothly(i consider smooth to be over 60fps). Unreal Tournament 2003 for example. all of the games that im planning on getting use the same engine as UT2003 or a derivitive of that engine. (DeusEx2, Duke Nukem Forever, Theif2 ect. and from the preview that ive seen on anandtech of the 9700PRO, it seems that in can provide me with fluid frame rates at high res.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Firstly I take it you are planning to upgrade your CPU. Athlon 1ghz is good for a GF3TI200 but any gfx card faster will really be hit hard and you will severely limit its true potential. With AthlonXP1800+ etc being so cheap it makes a LOT of sense to get this sorted before you upgrade the gfx card. Your SDR (PC133) will be costing you about 10% in perf too. What chipset does your mobo use? I would certainly upgrade the CPU first, if your mobo can't handle an AthlonXP then I'd suggest you might as well get DDR while you're shopping for a new mobo. After you've done this you will not only enjoy enhanced perf even with your current GF3TI200 but should find nVidia's DX9 card will be out too. Prices will be lower, there will be more info and there may even be budget versions of Rad9700 and NV30 too.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Well I don't think even Rad9700 coupled with a P4 2.53ghz and RIMM-PC1066 will give you what you are looking for. Here's what this combination can achieve:

GAME/BENCHMARK: 1280x1024=9700FPS/4600FPS 1600x1200=9700FPS/4600FPS
UT2003 dm-antalus: 108/66 78/45
UT2003 dm-asbestos: 166/128 128/92
UT2003 dm-inferno: 88/55 63/39

With 4xAA and high level Aniso on Rad9700 you get these FPS:

GAME/BENCHMARK: 1024x768 1280x1024 1600x1200
UT2003 dm-antalus: 66 44 31
UT2003 dm-asbestos: 106 72 52
UT2003 dm-inferno: 62, 41, 30

 

[AnAndAustin]

So even with a top-end CPU and Rad9700 ($800 just for these 2 components!) you're looking at either 1600x1200 without AA/Ani or 1024x768 with AA & Ani to stay close to 60FPS. With a GF4TI (half the price of Rad9700) you are looking at 60FPS in 1280x1024 without and 800x600 with some AA & Aniso.

IMHO Get keep your GF3 and sort out your CPU, mobo and RAM and then look around to see how the prices and products compare. XP2000+, KT333 and 512MB PC2700 should knock you about $300. Buying top-end anything is never a good idea, they devalue too quickly and are soon knocked from the top anyway, just look at all of the people who bought a 4600 6 months ago for $400 expecting that would give them 1600x1200 with AA & Aniso even on the new games.

 

[AnAndAustin]

From AnAnd's CPU Scaling in UT2003 let's see what FPS we get at 800x600 with HIGH detail in UT2003 DM-Asbestos:

Athlon1ghz & GF3TI200@TI500 = 150

AthlonXP2000+ & GF3TI200@TI500 = 170

Athlon1ghz & GF4TI4200@4400 = 160

AthlonXP2000+ & GF4TI4200@4400 = 210

Link

 

[BoomAM]

thanx for the many replys.
i am actually upgrading before the radeon9700 comes out to an XP1800.

my MoBo is a KT7A-RAID. its revision 1.02 and i know about the problem between the XP and my Mobo.

i am looking at the radeon9700 because it`ll allow me to keep my video card when the MoBo gets upgraded.

also, im not looking for the highest FPS from the card at the moment. as long as it remains over 60FPS in most res`s then im happy. plus im pig sick of nVidia cards. every one ive had has had a problem with it.

i wanted a card that wont date quickly, is fast in todays games, & tomorrows, plus, one that i can still use after MoBo upgrade in 6months that wont be the bottle neck in the system when the new upgrade comes around.

The ATI Radeon9700 fits all of this criteria.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Well considering the GF4TI4200 is a third the cost of Rad9700 and o/c's to within 10% of 4600 speed it should be worth considering. Generally GF4TI cards improve with every increase in CPU speed so you'll still gain a nice benefit when you upgrade the CPU and mobo. GF4TI cards offer very good 2xAA and QxAA and although the Aniso hits them quite hard it is very high quality.

Rad9700 is fantastic, but will devalue quickly. If you want the high resolutions and to play with 4xAA and mid/high Aniso then Rad9700 is the clear choice. IMHO you'd be better off going for a GF4TI4200, or simply keep your GF3 as it will still improve a lot with the boosted CPU power offered by XP1800+ over your current Duron1ghz. Sort out your CPU and mobo first and then in 3-6 months time you'll get much better gfx cards for your money. By then NV30 will be out, and there should be budget (well $200ish) DX9 cards out too which will enable you to play 4xAA and ANiso in high res without breaking the bank. Just MHO.

 

[BoomAM]

from the recent reviews that ive read of the 9700PRO, it shows that on a 1.5GHZ processor(XP1800 speed) that the radeon9700 does quite well, and as the clock speed increases futher, so does the FPS.

im am going to upgrade my MoBo and RAM next year, as by then all of the new mobo standards will be out. such as AGP 8x, Serial ATA ect; & when i can get 1GB of DDR cheaply. no point in downgrading anything is there. why go to 512mb Ram at the moment when i have 768mb. by then, 512mb dimms should be cheaper also.

if i was to buy a new mobo now, then i run the risk of not being able to use the new and upcoming standards needed by next gen hardware. plus by then the drivers & implementation of the AGP8 should have matured. and the nForce2 should be out.

I know some nForce2`s and the AGP8x and Serial ATA standards are on some Mobos and/or on some upcoming mobos, but next year there should be a wider selection available, so i can get the "right" mobo for me.

i have seen some benchmarks of the NV30 on some chinese site. should i get the NV30 instead or the 9700PRO?
Benchmarks comparing NV30 to 9700PRO

By november, i will have enough saved up to buy either the 9700PRO or the NV30 when its released in December(dont quote me on the date).

You give some very valid points about getting a 4200 instead, but the fact of the matter is that i AM going to get either NV30 or 9700PRO. Both of these cards will last far longer than either the 4200 or my ti200.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Do bear in mind that AGP8x, ATA133, Serial ATA, DDR400 (on SktA) and 333FSB are all to do with marketing than valid perf boosting. USB2 is a big improvement over USB1.1 but there's still next to nothing to take advantage of it, except for the odd external HD or CDRW which are way more expensive and slower than the internal options. What consumers need from the new mobos is speed, stability, unquirkiness and o/c'ability rather than having to compromise on these things as with current SktA chipsets. It remains to be seen if SiS746, KT400 or nForce2 will actually bring these things to the table or if they are more interested in the more marketable aspects of mobo chipset design.

Of course XP1800+ is certainly powerful enough to get the most out of these new gfx cards while quite obviously a Duron 1ghz isn't. As for the rest of your spec PC133 is fine, DDR266/PC2100 'only' gives about 10% speed boost, although 512MB of PC2100 is wiser than 768MB of PC133 although cost is of course an important factor.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Anyway it is certainly wise to see what NV30 has to offer, even if it is too expensive or underpowered Rad9700 prices should be lower and there may even be budget ($200) versions of Rad9700 or NV30 out by then. I never rec buying any top-of-the-range kit, it devalues too quickly and by the time the speed and features truly prove beneficial there are better, faster and cheaper alternatives anyway. Buying a couple of notches down is always wise.

EG buying a GF3TI200 about a year ago and then buying a 4200 now would be better and cheaper than just buying a GF3/GF3TI500 in the first place. The same can be said for buying an Athlon1.4ghz about a year ago and then buying an AthlonXP2000+ now rather than buying an AthlonXP1600+ back then.

So basicly IMHO you'd be better off either buying a 4200 now and then a mid-range card in 6-12 months, or stick with your GF3 maybe sorting out other components and then buy a mid-range card in 6 months.

 

[BoomAM]

when does nv30 get released? if its not out by early december then im getting 9700PRO. which has the better 2d quality and overalll image quality would you say. Cos apart from Matrox, ATI are renouned for having great 2D/3D/DVD image quality.

 

[AnAndAustin]

How many times? IT ISN'T THE 90's ANY MORE. Yes, Matrox has always been king of IQ, ATI caught them up with their excellent Radeon series of cards while nVidia were still suffering in this dept with GF3. But then GF4 came out, sporting IQ easily just as good as Rad8500, confirmed by independent testing conducted by Matrox themselves. Now the Parhelia has come out Matrox have took a step ahead again in IQ, but we are now talking very small diffs.

Matrox PDF File (Adobe Acrobat Reader)

 

[AnAndAustin]

Back in the days of GF2 it was clear in pretty much any res that IQ was below that of 3dfx and Matrox. GF3 improved things a little more, esp Leadtek and Gainward brands which made IQ a priority with their cards. But now when we compare GF4, Radeons and Matrox cards things are incredibly close, ALL are excellent for IQ, it shouldn't be a concern to get the underperforming Parhelia for the tiny increase in IQ, you'd be talking res above 1600x1200x32 @75Hz+ on a 19" monitor to notice any significant diffs at all.

NV30 should be out by Dec, but it's going to be close. NV30 is DX9 so it should have all the extra features and attributes that Rad9700 has. Image quality as mentioned matters very little as even GF4 and Rad8500 have excellent IQ and more than ample for the market these cards are aimed at. NV30 should be faster, how much is anyones guess, but 0.13mu should bring higher clocks and less heat than Rad9700's 0.15mu ... but we'll have to wait and see. In any case Rad9700 are awesome and dropping in price all the time!

 

[BoomAM]

i recently read, from both local UK mags and the shacknews website, that John Carmakc is very impressed with the current and future capibilites of the 9700PRO. so it must be a good card if he likes it.

does anyone know what res the E3 demo was running at? i know that it was in medium detail but thats it.