Question about ATI 4870 GPU purchase

[feakbeak]

I don't often post here, actually I think I only post on these boards when I need advice of those more knowledgeable than myself on hardware. I follow hardware updates fairly well and research more in depth when I plan to purchase something but I'm not a hobbyist.

I built my current PC almost three years ago and I'm in the process of doing my computer's mid-life upgrades. I want to upgrade my GPU and have been watching the 4800 and 200 lines in particular. I've decided to go with the ATI 4870 1GB.

My mobo is the DFI LanParty UT nF4-D 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD. It has PCIe 1.0 or 1.1, I'm not certain, definitely not 2.0. From what I've read this shouldn't matter because none of the GPUs are maxing the bandwidth of PCIe 1.x yet. So, afaik, there doesn't seem to be any reason to upgrade my mobo for this card.

One obvious concern I have is the size of the card. Currently, I have a mid-tower case, the Antec SLK3000-B to be specific. My current 7800 GT is almost right up against the HDD cage and this card looks a fair bit longer. I'm guessing I'm going to need to upgrade to a full-size case to accommodate the 4870, right? Also, from what I hear about heat output of the 4870 should I consider an additional case fan in addition to the one 120mm? Perhaps one on the side of the case or in the front, to get some more air flow through the case?

My primary concern is with my PSU. I have the Antec Neo Power 500 500W ATX12V SLI. It has two PCIe 6-pin connectors that the 4870 needs, so that seems fine I just want to be sure I don't need more power for my system with the addition of this card. Here is what the rest of my system looks like.

AMD X2 3800+ Manchester (run at stock, 2 GHz)
2 GB high performance DDR2 RAM, soon to be 4 GB (all 1 GB sticks)
2x SATA (1.5 GB), 7200 RPM 250 GB Seagate drives
1x CD-RW drive
1x DVD+/-RW drive
1x Floppy
PCI Audigy soundcard

I'm just using the stock heatsink/fan that came with my CPU and just have one 120mm case fan. Do you think my 500W PSU will be fine with the addition of the 4870? I used this calculator (http://www.thermaltake.outervision.com/Power) which told me I'd need 456W of "continuously available" power but that's not considering peak power. So I'm not sure if I should upgrade to a higher power PSU or not for the new card.

Any input on these questions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

edit: removed Newegg links because they don't work for deactivated products.

 

[DaveSimmons]

One obvious concern I have is the size of the card. Currently, I have a mid-tower case, the Antec SLK3000-B to be specific

That's what I'm using for my Gigabyte P43 + E8400 + ati 4870 system.

The card fits without problems except that you lose the use of a HD bay where the slot is. I can use 2 HDs but not a third, same as with my old 7900GTX card.

You may need to create a Catalyst profile to increase the fan speed since airflow in this classic case isn't as good as newer designs. At the stock (23%?) speed on my 4870 it was silent but heating up the rest of the case by 5-10 degrees.

What is the brand and 12v amps for your PSU? I'm using a Seasonic S12 500 watt and haven't had any problems.

 

[XBoxLPU]

The only problem I see is the limit your CPU is going to impose.

An upgrade to AM2 setup would be advisable

 

[feakbeak]

Thanks for the responses so far.

The PSU I have is the Antec Neo Power 500W. It's got 3 12V rails rated for 1A - 17A.

Obviously after a big GPU upgrade like this the rest of my system will be behind, but I'd rather not upgrade the CPU/mobo at this point because I'm not sure I need it. New CPU will mean a new socket, a new mobo, which in turn means new RAM... Generally I build a new system every 5-6 years and upgrade the GPU/RAM somewhere in the middle of that. The 4870 is probably a little overkill for what I do but I want to future proof a bit. I do game but it's mostly WoW, sometimes some other FPS/RTS but I obviously don't need a top-of-the-line card. I was strongly considering the 4850 but for another $100 I'd rather get the 4870 and have it last a bit longer, maybe even into my next system a bit. My 7800 GT is starting to show it's age, my FPS in WoW dropped a lot with the last expansion and in the Wrath beta it is even worse. My fiancee's top of the line iMac is showing my system up, rofl, I need a GPU upgrade but I am not going to do a rebuild yet.

 

[XBoxLPU]

If you have DDR2, you only need a new motherboard/CPU. But obviously that must be a mis-print.

 

[feakbeak]

Yeah, my RAM is DDR2 but it's DDR2 400 - I could use it in a newer system with faster DDR support but if I'm upgrading the CPU/mobo I'd want to get new RAM too. At any rate, I'm not rebuilding, so it's a moot point.

 

[JaBro999]

Hi Feakbeak,

If you really have a Socket 939 DFI LanParty UT nF4-D, then your RAM is DDR, not DDR2 (I have same MB):
http://www.dfi.com.tw/Product/...RODUCT_ID=3529&SITE=US

Also, if you do invest in two more 1 GB sticks of RAM for your nF4-D, you may need to loosen some of your memory timings (i.e. if you currently have a 1T command rate, you'll need to go to 2T to use all four memory banks).

As for the graphics card, I think that a Radeon 4870 1GB would be overkill with your current setup.

You need to ask yourself these questions:
Do you have a high resolution monitor (1920 x 1200 or higher) that would demand a relatively high-end card like the 4870?
Do you see yourself upgrading the rest of your system and/or your monitor in the next year or so to take full advantage of the 4870?
Do you currently play games (or intend to start playing games) that are very demanding graphics wise w/ high details, AA, etc.?

While I've been seriously considering my own system & monitor upgrade lately, my current system runs TF2 just fine until I save up a little more $$$. If I make any purchase before the upgrade (CPU/MB/RAM/Monitor), I might spring for a Radeon 4850.

-jb

 

[JaBro999]

One more thing,

AT has a nice article on PSU requirements that you may want to look at:

Debunking Power Supply Myths
http://www.anandtech.com/casec...us/showdoc.aspx?i=3413

-jb

 

[feakbeak]

Yeah, I'm retarded... it's DDR not DDR2. My bad.

The 4870 may be overkill. I do game and sometimes indulge in some graphic intensive FPS, but that is not my usual gaming. My gaming bread and butter is WoW and RTS. Perhaps I should just opt for the 4850 and plan a system rebuild in about two years.

As for monitor, I'm running a 1600x1200 and will be taking my fiancee's old 1650x1080 when she moves in since she's got her new iMac now she doesn't use her old PC much at all. I've considered upgrading to a 24" wide but that probably won't happen until my next rebuild. I need a new GPU, watching the iMacs 8800M soldered on GPU beat out my system is depressing.

Thanks for the PSU article link, I'll be sure to read through that when I get some time. Thanks again to everyone for the feedback.

 

[KeypoX]

Originally posted by: feakbeak
Yeah, I'm retarded... it's DDR not DDR2. My bad.

The 4870 may be overkill. I do game and sometimes indulge in some graphic intensive FPS, but that is not my usual gaming. My gaming bread and butter is WoW and RTS. Perhaps I should just opt for the 4850 and plan a system rebuild in about two years.

As for monitor, I'm running a 1600x1200 and will be taking my fiancee's old 1650x1080 when she moves in since she's got her new iMac now she doesn't use her old PC much at all. I've considered upgrading to a 24" wide but that probably won't happen until my next rebuild. I need a new GPU, watching the iMacs 8800M soldered on GPU beat out my system is depressing.

Thanks for the PSU article link, I'll be sure to read through that when I get some time. Thanks again to everyone for the feedback.

LOL another 2 years? I mean waiting is fun because you get a huge boost but jezz your already 4 years behind. Also you can sell your mobo/cpu for i dunno maybe 50-100 and get C2D and mobo for about 200.

But if you only use your computer for wow then you are golden. Why upgrade at all?

 

[toronado97]

I'm relatively certain you're going to be massively CPU bottlenecked with that system. Your 7800 is probably pushing the limits as it is. Honestly even my 7600 GT was able to run games at 1650x1080 with decent graphical settings. For the almost 300 bucks you're going to spend on the new GPU I would highly suggest instead either camping your local Fry's Ad (assuming you're near a Fry's) and waiting on their almost weekly Intel Core 2 Duo XXXX + ECS motherboard for 150ish bucks deals, or just grabbing a Gigabyte P45 chipset motherboard for under 100 dollars at the Egg. Drop in an E5200 for 88 dollars, and get 2GB of DDR2 Ram for 35 and I can almost guarantee you're going to see a monstrous performance increase in everything you do, much moreso than you would getting the newer video card.

Also just noticed you play WoW a lot. The single biggest upgrade I ever made was jumping from my Ahtlon 3000+ to the Intel in my signature. My framerates literally quadrupled in raid environments, and doubled to tripled in everyday play. Your GPU definately plays a roll don't get me wrong, but especially for a WoW gamer the most cost effective upgrade you could make is jumping to the Intel setup at this point. Honestly you could probably sell that AMD rig and your 7800 GT and get enough money to purchase an ATi HD 4850 with the return, and have a totally new rig.

Edit: I would also completely advise against purchasing more RAM for that system. There's no point in investing money in a dead technology, and DDR is definately gone the way of the dodo. It's the same advice I gave a friend regarding his old AGP based rig. He needed to upgrade the entire thing, but could only afford one item at the time and decided he HAD to have a new video card, so he went out and spent the money on the x1800xt I think it was. It made a marginal difference in his system, but 4 months later he upgraded the whole shebang and had a useless card laying around that cost him 200 dollars.

 

[NitroTurtle]

Originally posted by: toronado97
Also just noticed you play WoW a lot. The single biggest upgrade I ever made was jumping from my Ahtlon 3000+ to the Intel in my signature. My framerates literally quadrupled in raid environments, and doubled to tripled in everyday play. Your GPU definately plays a roll don't get me wrong, but especially for a WoW gamer the most cost effective upgrade you could make is jumping to the Intel setup at this point. Honestly you could probably sell that AMD rig and your 7800 GT and get enough money to purchase an ATi HD 4850 with the return, and have a totally new rig.

+1

I think you'd be disappointed with the marginal improvement you'd see in WoW by upgrading to a 4870 with your currently CPU.

 

[feakbeak]

Alright, you've sold me on the system upgrade. I know the Core 2's smoke the previous generation of AMD/Intels. The hardest part is going to be getting this proposal past the Mrs, rofl. I should be able to get a reasonable Core 2 mobo/cpu/ram combination for about the same price though. Maybe I'll stick with the 7800 GT for another 6 months or so and then upgrade the GPU.

 

[udneekgnim]

Originally posted by: feakbeak
Thanks for the responses so far.

The PSU I have is the Antec Neo Power 500W. It's got 3 12V rails rated for 1A - 17A.

Obviously after a big GPU upgrade like this the rest of my system will be behind, but I'd rather not upgrade the CPU/mobo at this point because I'm not sure I need it. New CPU will mean a new socket, a new mobo, which in turn means new RAM... Generally I build a new system every 5-6 years and upgrade the GPU/RAM somewhere in the middle of that. The 4870 is probably a little overkill for what I do but I want to future proof a bit. I do game but it's mostly WoW, sometimes some other FPS/RTS but I obviously don't need a top-of-the-line card. I was strongly considering the 4850 but for another $100 I'd rather get the 4870 and have it last a bit longer, maybe even into my next system a bit. My 7800 GT is starting to show it's age, my FPS in WoW dropped a lot with the last expansion and in the Wrath beta it is even worse. My fiancee's top of the line iMac is showing my system up, rofl, I need a GPU upgrade but I am not going to do a rebuild yet.

have a 4400+ X2 AM2 CPU and 4870 512MB card

WoW was definitely getting CPU limited. I played at 1650*1080 with all in-game vid settings on High and 4AA or 8AA (didn't make a difference), and I would park my character toward the back of Scryer bank and would look out. My framerate was consistently around 20-30 FPS no matter what resolution, detail setting, or AA I would change it to.

Playing at the same settings, I can confirm the FPS in WotLK beta was also lackluster. The only setting that made a noticeable difference was view distance and the detail setting for dynamic shadows.

 

[MarcVenice]

An e5200 is going to be a massive upgrade from his 2.0ghz x2 ? What are you smoking exactly? It would be a decent improvement, an e8400 would be massive.

You can always overclock that x2, it should do 2.4-2.6ghz fairly easy on that mobo. With 2.6ghz, 2gb of ram, and a HD4850, you should be good to go for quite a while if RTS's and WoW are your thing. Hell, a 2.6ghz x2 and HD4850 will still run all games just fine at 1680*1050.

 

[toronado97]

An E5200 is a much faster processor than my current E6400. I had the same CPU as the OP. I made the upgrade to my current rig and saw my FPS average easily double to triple in every day play. Yes, I believe a C2D clocked at 3.0 ghz with stock cooling and a 4850 would be a massive upgrade compared to what he's currently using, and adding a 4870. You're comparing 10-20% performance gain vs 50-60%, I would consider the difference massive.

 

[feakbeak]

I haven't thoroughly researched CPUs and mobos since I last built a system for a friend over a year ago. I know Nehalem is on the horizon, with a major revamp of the architecture. Here's a new thought...

Pick up a 4850, only $160 for the Asus model on newegg right now. Then wait until Q1-Q2 next year to upgrade CPU/mobo/ram. I definitely want to move to Intel next time I upgrade and the new Nehalem architecture seems like a big boost. I know quad-core doesn't really do much of anything for gaming currently but the on-die memory controller is supposed to make a pretty big difference right?

Thoughts on that plan?

Sorry for all weaving around in this thread. I probably should've done more research before posting. Maybe I can do some serious reading up this weekend, I'm way behind on hardware outside of GPUs which I've been looking into recently.

FWIW, this thread has been very helpful in me thinking this upgrade through, whatever it turns out to be. The 4870 I was originally thinking of purchasing definitely doesn't seem to be the way to go.

 

[toronado97]

You can certainly get the 4850 and wait a while to upgrade, but most of the things I've read about Nehalem are showing that it's superior to the current C2D's in business applications and things of that nature, but is actually inferior in terms of gaming performance. I'm not sure how accurate that is or if it will change, but as a gamer it's something you should keep in mind. Saving up for an E8400 Wolfdale would probably be a better choice.

 

[MarcVenice]

Originally posted by: toronado97
An E5200 is a much faster processor than my current E6400. I had the same CPU as the OP. I made the upgrade to my current rig and saw my FPS average easily double to triple in every day play. Yes, I believe a C2D clocked at 3.0 ghz with stock cooling and a 4850 would be a massive upgrade compared to what he's currently using, and adding a 4870. You're comparing 10-20% performance gain vs 50-60%, I would consider the difference massive.

Much faster? They have the same cache levels, it's 370mhz faster, and it's a 45nm chip instead of 65mn. I'd say its 25% faster, TOPS.

And the reason i7 seems to be inferior, or at least not a real improvement to c2d is because c2d has massive amounts of cache, which games REALLY like.

 

[NitroTurtle]

I have a few friends who play WoW, and I built them machines earlier this year using E2180's on Abit IP35-E MB with 2Gb DD2. I'm not sure how the E2180 compares to some of the newer chips, but even this setup here will only run you about 200 bucks. But, I also OC'd all of these chips, and even with stock cooling 2.8Ghz was pretty easy to hit. One friend is running 3.2Ghz with aftermarket cooling and VERY little tweaking. I think you'd be better off going this route, and then picking up either a 4750 or 8800gt depending on how much more you want to spend.

As a WoW player myself, I can tell you the biggest gains I've seen have been from upgrading my CPU and HDs. Many people here will give suggestions based on general gaming, but MMOs are kinda in their own class here with regards to what they require from a system.