Quebecois recognized as "Nation within Canada"

Horus

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Dec 27, 2003
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House passes motion recognizing Québécois as nation
Last Updated: Monday, November 27, 2006 | 8:51 PM ET
CBC News

The House of Commons has overwhelmingly passed a motion recognizing Québécois as a nation within Canada.

Conservatives, most Liberal MPs, the NDP and the Bloc voted 266 to 16 in support of the controversial motion, which earlier in the day had prompted the resignation of Michael Chong as intergovernmental affairs minister.

Fifteen Liberal MPs voted against the motion, along with Independent MP Garth Turner.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper had introduced the surprise motion on Nov. 22, raising the ante on a Bloc Québécois motion that sought to declare Quebecers a nation without reference to Canada.

The motion states: "That this House recognize that the Québécois form a nation within a united Canada."

The prime minister has said he is using the word nation in a "cultural-sociological" rather than in a legal sense.

The nationhood idea has preoccupied Ottawa since the Bloc proposed a motion calling on the House to recognize Quebecers as a nation and Harper made a counter-proposal to define Québécois as a nation within Canada.

Over the following two days, the Bloc first amended its motion to say that they are a nation "currently within Canada" ? leaving the door open to independence ? and then declared its support for the government motion.

Liberal leadership hopefuls Gerard Kennedy, who doesn't have a seat in Parliament, and Ken Dryden announced on Monday that they opposed the motion.

Dryden and leadership candidate Joe Volpe voted against the motion.

Chong had said he would abstain from voting because the motion "implies the recognition of ethnicity.

"I do not believe in an ethnic nationalism. I believe in a civic nationalism."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/27/nation-vote.html

WOW. WTF. How did THIS slip under the radar? This has HUGE ramafications for the Canadian government. Are they out of their goddamn minds? Now Quebec is going to get even MORE vocal.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,677
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It's pretty much symbolic, but may not work out that way in the long run. I see it in a similar way as to how the First Nations people call themselves "Nations". They are Culturally unique and have a certain level of Autonomy, but at the same time are within Canada. That's the rub though, Quebec doesn't have that kind of Autonomy and with this declaration might seek to get it. However, Quebec does have a certain degree of that Autonomy already. All in all, I'm not sure where it will end up, but Canada has been pioneering its' own way and idea of Nationhood right from the start. So I'm not alarmed as we are what we choose to be and not bound by what others have done elsewhere in the World.
 

imported_Aelius

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Apr 25, 2004
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Somehow I doubt that most Canadians would agree with this decision. It could very easily start a split along ethnic lines. Not like there wasn't one already.

Not only that buy how do you define this? Is it a person who was born in Quebec? Someone who currently holds an address there?

Most likely it will end up being anyone who is ethnic French Canadian and it will likely be said as much by the Bloc.

It doesn't surprise me that senior Liberal and Conservatives support this. To what end I do not know. It can't be economic so it could be purely political. All I know is that there are already two standards and now they are starting the process of trying to define those standards.

Instead of splitting the country along ethnic lines perhaps they should just let Quebec leave Canada if they do decide.

I have nothing nice to say about anyone involved so I'll leave it at that.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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How is this different then say Scotland or Wales? Is it not it's own country still even though it is in the UK?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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I feel sorry for them. They are being forced to be peasants yet they want to be free of the monarchy.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,404
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It?s about the people and the culture. If those have separation, no law will have meaning more powerful than that. It?s the people who enforce such laws in the first place, and it always comes down to them on whatever they feel like obeying.

This is perhaps just recognition that there always was a difference.
 

f95toli

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
How is this different then say Scotland or Wales? Is it not it's own country still even though it is in the UK?

Yes, both Scotland and Wales are countries. However, the difference between them and Quebec is that their parliaments have real powers and controls e.g. education. health care, some legislation etc; they also have their own national teams in most sports which has an important symbolic significance.

 

imported_Aelius

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Apr 25, 2004
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You all forget that while you are comparing Canada to the UK where they all speak the same language, we don't. They don't need to learn English and that's fine, but I don't like that government requires French. At least they also require English. So much favortism.

Would it be so shocking as to treat everyone as equal? If they want to split, let them. It doesn't mean we cannot have free trade.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
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Let the french canadians form their own country...the rest can join the US.
 

Horus

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Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Let the french canadians form their own country...the rest can join the US.

But we don't want to join the US. Ever.

This is like Congress declaring that California is a seperate nation within the United States just because they do things differently then everyone else. Imagine if that happened for everyone?
 

Firebot

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Jul 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Horus
WOW. WTF. How did THIS slip under the radar? This has HUGE ramafications for the Canadian government. Are they out of their goddamn minds? Now Quebec is going to get even MORE vocal.

It didn't slip under the radar. The Bloc was going to bring in a motion to have Quebec called a nation without mention of Canada, and after it was going to be obviously denied, Duceppe would use it as a tool for showing that Harper was a fraud, and the seperatist movement would grow in numbers while the Conservative Party would lose its newfound support within Quebec. Even worse, the Liberal party was taking a huge beating on the issue due to bickering in the leadership campaign on the issue, and was assuring themselves of never being electable in Quebec again. Harper made a huge political move here, by bringing the motion in on his own terms, and to include Quebec as part of a united Canada.

Don't buy the Bloc's approval of this move as meaning much, they are absolutly devastated by this and anyone who isn't an anti-Harper sheep knows it. Remember that the Bloc Quebecois lost a ton of votes out of nowhere to a resurging Conservative movement within Quebec, a movement so big that the Conservatives actually received more voted then the Liberals last election, and Quebec actually gave Harper the government.

The seperatist movement in Quebec will not go away. This move doesn't embolden it though, it in facts muddles the waters in where they go from there. "OK so we are recognized as a nation and a distinct society, now what?". One of the biggest arguments for seperatism was that Quebec was not being recognized as a unique society in its own right, now they are officially recognized. They can no longer use this argument anymore.
 

dennilfloss

Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Oct 21, 1999
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The Harper motion was made to preempt a Bloc Québécois motion that did not mention Canada. As such, it was necessary because a rejection by Canada's parliament of a nation recognizing the Québécois nation (in a sociological sense) would have fanned the fires of separatism within the province.

This motion is about nations, not nation-states (a distinction more common in French than in English). For example, the United Nations should be more properly called United Nation-States. Thus the motion recognizes the Québec people, not the Québec province, as a nation within Canada. In fact, as a member of the French-Canadian diaspora within Canada, I would prefer it said la nation canadienne-française (as one of the two founding peoples) for reasons I mention below but I can live with Québécois as a nation since even the anglos and other linguistic groups there belong to a loose but distinct Quebecois culture.

Here's a good read on what the term nation means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation

For example, the United Kingdom consists of four nations.


Couple of relevant quotes:

Apart from its meaning as a 'sovereign country,' the word 'nation' designates a people bound by history, language and territory. In this sense, the "nation" that is referred to is the French-Canadian nation, formed by the descendants of the French colonizers of 'Nouvelle France;" even though the vast majority is concentrated in Quebec, the actual territory of this nation is Canada at large. Provinces are not nations because they all are multicultural, including Quebec.

dixit Lysiane Gagnon, writing recently in the Globe and Mail.

It is not the concept of nation that is retrograde; it is the idea that the nation must necessarily be sovereign.

dixit Pierre Trudeau in 1962

Thirty years ago earlier this month, I voted for the Parti Québécois in my first provicial election. I was 19 years old and had been there for the founding of the Association nationale des Etudiants Du Québec, involved in the general CEGEP (pre-university college) strikes and totally disillusioned with the way the Bourassa government had handled education and the unions in general. I did not vote for separatists per se but I was not totally against the idea. I voted PQ as a reaction against what I perceived as incompetence and, mostly, corruption within the previous administration, kinda like some of our southern neighbours voted against Bush recently.

During the last 30 years, I have become better acquainted with the rest of Canada and increasingly angry at the parochialism expressed by some of Québec's intelligentsia. I'd say that the trigger for me was when the PQ government changed the Saint Jean-Baptiste (a holiday for all French-Canadians) into La Fête Nationale (a holiday that changes the target population to those strictly within Quebec's borders, whether francophone or not). To me that was a betrayal of Acadians and other nonQuébécois French-Canadians, including the million or so diaspora that had moved to other provinces and the US around the turn of the 20th century. Every June 24th, I saw the shows on Québec television that seemed to me like so much brainwashing of the younger generation to make them embrace a separatist agenda. An insidious, long-term plan worthy of Goebbels.

This move from the cultural to the more strictly political still irks me to this day. I have always and still consider myself a French-Canadian but I am no longer a Québécois even though I lived the first 23 years of my life in Québec City and my ancestors had arrived there in the first part of the 1600s. Being in Ottawa, Québec remains just a 1/2h walk away for me and I still spend about 6 weeks there each year when I visit my family.

Anyway, it's been 30 years, two referendums and several constitutional conferences but I still do not understand or actually feel deep within my heart and soul the need some have to separate from the rest of Canada and form another nation-state. No longer living in Quebec, I wonder what has changed during those 30 years. Are we closer together as Canadians now or still drifting apart? Are people more easily influenced by some form of propaganda from both sides of the question or are they able to exert more reasoned judgement.

Like my idol, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, I was taught and strongly influenced by the Jesuits and his saying "La raison avant la passion" reverberates deep within me. Which is becoming the predominant force within this discourse in Quebec today, reason or passion?

If you were there or elsewhere in Canada 30 years ago, I'd like to read how you felt then and since, what has changed and what hasn't both within you and within Quebec/Canada, particularly in view of Monday's resolution by the House Of Commons.

More reading:

http://www2.asanet.org/footnotes/mar06/indexthree.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_debate_in_Canada
 

Kntx

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Dec 11, 2000
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Quebec will never leave Canada as they have too much to lose. Quebec gets a ton of money pumped into it from the feds. The entire separatist movement is just a power play to get more.
 

dennilfloss

Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Oct 21, 1999
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No. Some of them are idealists, dreamers, and ideologically driven. It's not just a case of intraCanadian realpolitiks or the solution would be more easily forthcoming.
 

dennilfloss

Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
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Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I feel sorry for them. They are being forced to be peasants yet they want to be free of the monarchy.

Been lurking and reading your attacks on our beloved Queen without being able to respond for the last few years. I'll be short and sweet so as not to derail this tread: STFU, troll!! :|
 

Horus

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2003
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Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I feel sorry for them. They are being forced to be peasants yet they want to be free of the monarchy.

Been lurking and reading your attacks on our beloved Queen without being able to respond for the last few years. I'll be short and sweet so as not to derail this tread: STFU, troll!! :|


FTW. ZOMG PEASANTS TEH QUEEN WHIPS US. I think I need to sig that for the sheer stupidity of that statement.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
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I'd like to see Quebec become a separate country, would make it easier to avoid them entirely.


 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,677
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Originally posted by: Horus
Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I feel sorry for them. They are being forced to be peasants yet they want to be free of the monarchy.

Been lurking and reading your attacks on our beloved Queen without being able to respond for the last few years. I'll be short and sweet so as not to derail this tread: STFU, troll!! :|


FTW. ZOMG PEASANTS TEH QUEEN WHIPS US. I think I need to sig that for the sheer stupidity of that statement.

Unfortunetly he's not the onlly one here with that opinion(CoW's opinion). Someone else laid the same song and dance on me recently. :D
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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Originally posted by: f95toli
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
How is this different then say Scotland or Wales? Is it not it's own country still even though it is in the UK?

Yes, both Scotland and Wales are countries. However, the difference between them and Quebec is that their parliaments have real powers and controls e.g. education. health care, some legislation etc; they also have their own national teams in most sports which has an important symbolic significance.

Scotland, Wales etc have a long history of being a seperate country etc. I see very little -> nothing similar to this situation.

Quebec appears to be succeding. Seems more similar to the succession of the Southern States predeeding the civil war in the USA (sans slavery issue, of course).

On a bit different train of thought - This seems a good reason to ensure English is the "offical" language here in the USA. If not, we will see this type of thing with respect to the Hispanic block? Will the Southwest one day have the same issues?

Fern
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,342
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I can see why Harper did this, but on the whole I would rather Quebec go its own merry ways (and no, none of that using Canadian passport bull). Right after they repay all the debts. I am sick and tired of being treated as a second class citizen on account of Quebec's "uniqueness".
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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If it separates, Quebec isn't leaving with A) the assets or B) the borders it currently has. In any case, that'll never happen.

Harper's charted a good set of policy to mollify all but the most idealistic separatists. Hand back the powers that logically are better served under the control of each province and let them chart their own course, since with a country this size one solution doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Hopefully Quebec is paying attention to the guy and what he offers them.