Quebec Independence Movement

[Squall Leonhart]

Most of you have probably heard about Quebec nationalism at some point in your life, even if you aren't Canadian. This is the first thread of a collection of threads I will post at some point in the future regarding separatist movements around the world. So, I have spent quite some time researching the Quebec independence movement, as well as other movements. Canada has had several referendums asking the people if they think Quebec should become independent, and every time the majority of the people have said no. Personally I am against the independence movement, since the facts simply don't support Quebec's movement, and they wouldn't be self-sufficient. I do however recognize that the culture of Quebec is different from that of the rest of Canada.


Arguments for Independence
* In Quebec the official language is French, whereas the rest of Canada speaks English
* The goals and policies of the rest of Canada do not necessarily always align with those of Quebec
* Quebec's French culture is dying and arguably without independence or autonomy, it will eventually become like the rest of Canada
* Many separatists in Quebec feel as though the Canadian government didn't live up to it's promise for a new constitution in 1970
* Some websites recognize Quebec's distinct cultural differences from Canada, such as how Yahoo! has both Canadian and Quebecker Yahoo! Answers websites

Arguments Against Independence
* Quebec already maintains a degree of autonomy as a province of Canada
* The French language is dying out in Quebec and being replaced with English
* The withdrawal of Quebec from Canada could significantly hinder Canada's political, economic, and military strength
* The majority of the population of Quebec don't support independence or autonomy
* Terrorism committed by pro-independence guerrilla factions drives people away from supporting Quebec sovereignty
* If Quebec became independent, it would create a barrier in the middle of Canada, separating Eastern Canada and Western Canada
* It is questionable whether or not Quebec could be economically self-sufficient without the aid of Canada
* Quebec has no pre-existing constitution or framework for government
* Quebec is made up of many different ethnic groups, and an independent French-speaking Quebec could easily abuse minorities
* Historically speaking, the former French government of Quebec often ignored, suppressed, and mistreated the aboriginal population
* Many of the leaders of the separatist movement are discriminatory against the aboriginal population, including the former leader of Quebec, Robert Bourassa
* Many aboriginal tribes in Canada have expressed concerns regarding Quebec sovereignty, and some have even threatened to leave the confederacy
* The ideas on how an independent Quebec should be governed are very different, with many different parties and organizations, each with different ideological idea on what the future of Quebec should be. Many of the groups are far-left communist groups, while others are center-right and far right..


General Information
Proposed State: Quebec
Proposed Capital: Quebec City
Today Part of: Canada (Quebec)
Government: various
Population: 7,970,672 (5.63 /km2 density)
Land: 1,365,128 km2 land + 176,928 km2 water
GDP: C$303,747 billion (C$37,278 per capita)
Language: French
Culture: Canadian, French
Religion: Catholic
Denonym: Québécois, Quebecers/Quebeckers

Political Parties
Parti Québécois
Bloc Québécois
Action démocratique du Québec
Québec solidaire
Parti république du Québec (defunct)
Parti républicain du Québec (defunct)
Parti nationaliste du Québec (defunct)
Ralliement national (defunct)
Mouvement Souveraineté-Association (defunct)
Parti indépendantiste (defunct)
Parti indépendantiste of 1985 (defunct)
Parti canadien (defunct)
Parti canadien of 1942 (defunct)

Paramilitary Organizations
Mouvement de libération nationale du Québec
Société des Fils de la Liberté (defunct)
Front de libération du Québec (defunct)
Frères chasseurs (defunct)

Other Organizations
Les Intellectuels pour la souveraineté
Réseau de Résistance du Québécois
Mouvement national des Québécoises et des Québécois
Saint-Jean-Baptiste Society
Alliance laurentienne (defunct)


Links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_sovereignty_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quebec_sovereignty_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_autonomism


Flag

Coat of Arms

Map

 

[Fear No Evil]

When the hell did Canada become a country? I swore they were the 51st state.

 

[dali71]

* The majority of the population of Quebec don't support independence or autonomy

This should trump any other argument, imho.

 

[Kirby]

Most of you have probably heard about Quebec nationalism at some point in your life, even if you aren't Canadian.

Nope. But I'll give you some advice as an American.

1.) Declare Independence
2.) Fuck shit up
3.) Write your own constitution
4.) ...
5.) Profit!

 

[Squall Leonhart]

This should trump any other argument, imho.

Well it's pretty close. The last poll was
51% against
49% for

 

[Ape]

51% is still the majority correct?

 

[Lemon law]

The majority of the Provence of Quebec may not support independence, but still its a giant rifting problem for Canada. And finding the compromise that keeps everyone happy is going to take a brilliant Canadian politician that does not come to any one nation as often as needed.

Nor is that the extent of Canadian unity problems, as there is a growing rift between the trading interests of Eastern and Western parts of Canada.

But still, as an American, I can only say Canadian natural resources have enormous potential. As I refuse to bad mouth Canada in any way. And as an American, I have no say on how Canada solves its internal problems.

 

[lupi]

we can't get rid of PR, uk can't get rid of the rock, don't expect this to happen..pretty much ever.

 

[Martin]

I think it's a good idea. In general I think regions with somewhat homogenous populations should be independent countries, which would lead to more democratic and free societies"

Something along these lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America

 

[pcgeek11]

Kinda reminds me of the US Civil War ....

Canada don't want Quebec to leave because of their resources...

 

[RabidMongoose]

I think that Quebec should be able to leave Canada, maybe have another referendum soon. I can't blame many people for wanting to leave a country that believes in the British caste system and demands that its citizens bow down to some 'Queen' overlord in the UK. This is actually a significant issue that I think should be added to the OP.

Maybe Québécois are very unlike most Canadians and actually don't suffer from the need of an Overlord.

 

[silverpig]

Well it's pretty close. The last poll was
51% against
49% for

It was more like 50.6% to 49.4% IIRC, and there were a bunch of issues with the referendum. First, there was a lot of ambiguity with the question. Second, the question in french wasn't exactly the same as the question in english, and there could have been some ambiguity where someone might answer the french question one way but the english question the other way (or something like that).

 

[Infohawk]

Kinda reminds me of the US Civil War ....

Canada don't want Quebec to leave because of their resources...

I don't know I've never really heard a version of the US Civil War that was about resources. The South was an agricultural society. The North could have traded for cotton since the south needed all their manufactured goods from the North.

 

[Jimmah]

It would be amusing if QC did up and separate, albeit the likelyhood is extremely low with the Bloc getting a beatdown in the election. There will always be people wishing to separate, these people think leaving is the only answer and nothing you say will change that.

Few problems I see if the leave:

They lose all federal funding. Right now they get 17.4b, with a GDP of 60b, an instand loss of 25% of your income will be a huge blow.

They take their debt. 236.6b, unknown about other debt.

Their northern territories could be an interesting development. The natives have said if QC leaves then they will leave QC, likely by force (those guys don't screw around), likely dividing up a separated QC further.


While it might look good from an emotional point of view, those with their heads on right likely see leaving as the final and most extreme step.

 

[yllus]

I completely understand and even sympathize with the wish to preserve the unique French culture that Quebec engenders, enough to not be permanently annoyed with Quebec's politicians aims to bleed the rest of the country for as much cash as possible.

It really would be amusing to see them attempt to separate, though. If I recall correctly, the newly independent nation of Quebec wished to continue using the Canadian dollar as its currency. Its fallback option was to ask the Americans to use the USD. Nothing screams independence like having Washington D.C. dictate your monetary policy!

 

[BeauJangles]

There's no way Quebec could be self-sufficient as a nation.

If Quebec actually voted to separate, there would be an independent referendum within Montreal, which would likely remain part of Canada. On top of that, indigenous groups would seize the opportunity to separate from the newly-independent Quebec.

 

[ProfJohn]

I want my free iPod aka this should be locked or delated as nothing by propaganda.

 

[yllus]

Kinda reminds me of the US Civil War ....

Canada don't want Quebec to leave because of their resources...

The U.S. Civil War was about economic goals - the North's did not align with the South, and so when the South felt disenfranchised by Washington they split off to determine their economic destiny on their own. It wasn't exactly about resources.

What resources does Quebec have that Canada wants? Quebec has an excellent, state-of-the-art hydroelectric system, but they're a net beneficiary of federalism, not a contributor.

I've always felt that the independence movement is mostly about a significant amount of people in Quebec sticking their heads in the sands and denying the reality of demographics. They assume that by becoming independent, they would be able to better defend the province's French heritage - mostly by denying non-French speaking immigrants from entering the country. That may work to some degree, but the slow erosion that occurs from being inundated by English-language media and contact with "the outside" can't be stopped. And in today's world interconnectedness is everything.

There are two solutions: Create a North Korea-esque wall between outside influences and Quebec, or create massive incentives for French-speaking women in the province to stay home and have (many) babies. The former is unthinkable, and they're already accomplishing the latter to the best of their ability be leeching Canada of federal transfer money - it won't get easier to do if the faucet is turned off.

There's no way Quebec could be self-sufficient as a nation.

If Quebec actually voted to separate, there would be an independent referendum within Montreal, which would likely remain part of Canada. On top of that, indigenous groups would seize the opportunity to separate from the newly-independent Quebec.

Awesome, Canada could start doing airlifts into Montreal to keep it alive and independent. Of course, they'd probably partition the French-speaking parts of Montreal off as well, and maybe put up some sort of wall...

 

[Linflas]

My wife is an English speaking native of Montreal so I have been watching this show since the mid 1980's. It would be bad for Canada and worse for Quebec if they ever did manage to successfully win a separation vote in my opinion. It has taken Montreal and Quebec 30 years to recover from driving out 300,000 English speaking natives to Ontario and the other provinces.

 

[mmntech]

The separatist movement is all but dead today. More political rhetoric than anything else. It's why the Bloc was resoundly defeated in the last election. Giles Ducept opened up that can of worms again and his support flocked to the NDP in response. To put it cynically, Quebec uses the movement as a method to extort more money and representation from Ottawa. Equalization heavily favours them. That's how they can afford their lavish, European-socialist style social programs.

This is why they won't separate. Economically, it's more advantageous to stay in Canada, and they know it.

 

[Zebo]

Much to do about nothing. Like the Texas thing.

 

[lord_emperor]

The majority of the population of Quebec don't support independence or autonomy

This has been proved by referendum repeatedly.

 

[Jaskalas]

All you have to do is tax Quebec, take a nice little sum off the top, and then return their money to them. They, like the American States, will convince themselves that they cannot survive without the federal money and so independence becomes impossible.

Forget the fact that it was their money to begin with, the average Joe cannot see past his own face. The money is from the rest of Canada, dangling in front of them, and as far as they know they have to be good little boys and girls to get that money. The explanation of where it came from is too complicated for the public to absorb.

 

[BeauJangles]

Awesome, Canada could start doing airlifts into Montreal to keep it alive and independent. Of course, they'd probably partition the French-speaking parts of Montreal off as well, and maybe put up some sort of wall...

I'm just saying that after living in Montreal and spending quite a lot of time there because of family, most Montrealers don't support an independent Quebec and see it for what it is -- a political sham that would, in reality, be completely untenable. The last time the separation issue was big, there was a lot of talk within the city of holding their own referendum.

 

[desy]

The last referendum was vague it wasn't 'should Quebec separate?' It was 'should Quebec pursue negotiation with the Federal government regarding Quebecs unique identity?' or some crap like that