Quality (or lack thereof) in LCDs today...

[nitromullet]

It's been a while since I purchased a new LCD. My last LCD was a Dell 2407WFP in Nov. 2006 and the one before that was a 2005FPW back in 2004. Essentially what I was looking for was an LCD that could do 1920x1080 1:1, which my revA03 2407WFP could not do. The 2407WFP was otherwise a rather nice monitor - not perfect by any means, but overall the image was clear and the colors decent. I sold the 2407WFP to help fund the purchase of its replacement - in retrospect this was probably a bad move on my part...

So, my monitor replacement saga begins...

My first candidate was an HP w2338h (native 1920x1080). Overall, the image on this screen is actually really good. Text is very crisp, colors are bright, whites are white, and black is as black as you're gonna get with an LCD. Plus, it has that nice glossy screen (which I like). This monitor was almost a keeper, except for the fact that it has a TN panel so it has really bad vertical viewing angles. This in itself isn't a surprise and wouldn't be a deal breaker, but the monitor has almost zero ergonomic adjustment capabilities, which becomes a deal breaker when dealing with a monitor with bad viewing angles. HP would have a winner on their hands (considering it's a TN panel) if they only gave you the ability to adjust the angle/height of the screen to meet your needs instead of requiring you to be a contortionist to get the best picture.

Next came the Dell 2408WFP. I figured the 2407WFP was pretty good, so the 2408WFP would be just as good, but with he added 1:1 pixel mapping support. I found a decent deal on one at a dell.com, so I took the bait... Well, in the two years since the 2407 came out, Dell has apparently been hard at work cranking up the brightness and colors on their panels because the 2408 is #%$#% BRIGHT! I mean, like retina searing bright. To make the monitor just a little bit more painful to use, Dell decided to crank the colors up to 11 as well. So, out of the box you're basically you're staring into a supernova. I was finally able to tame the brightness and color, but once the monitor was actually not too bright to look at I noticed that text has a greenish shadow around it. Basically, text looks like it does an a cheap LCD hooked up via VGA instead of DVI - problem is the 2408 is not a cheap LCD and I had it hooked up with DVI. I could get rid of the greenish shadow by turning down the sharpness, but that left me with fuzzy text and an overall not sharp picture. Before contacting Dell, I decided to look into some other options...

I had to grab some other things at Costco, and somehow I got talked into picking up a Vizio 26" LCD http://www.costco.com/Browse/P...t.aspx?Prodid=11321901 I was pretty skeptical about this buy, and probably should have followed my instincts... Overall, this isn't a bad screen per se, and if you don't mind the wide frame around the screen it actually looks really nice. It obviously has a TN panel, but somehow the viewing angles aren't as bad as on the HP. It would probably make a decent screen for someone looking for a HDTV/monitor hybrid - except that it won't scale 1080i/p content, so all your HD content is stretched vertically. ...nice feature for a screen that boasts "1080p" on the box. : / Costco has a ridiculously good return policy, once you wait in line for about 30mins, which I didn't feel bad about taking advantage of considering how much I spend there on other stuff there.

Number 4... I was able to locate an HP w2408h locally that I decided to try out. This screen is discontinued by HP, but what I was hoping for was basically the same screen as the w2338h as I previously tried with better height/angle adjustment and 1920x1200 resolution (this screen does scale 1920x1080 1:1 flawlessly). Well, I got my better height/angle adjustment, but what I didn't get was a panel that was nearly as crisp as the w2338h. I was able to mitigate the viewing angle issues somewhat by adjusting the height/angle of the monitor, but overall the image quality just wasn't that good. Text was not crisp, it was way too bright, and when the brightness was turned down shaded areas in games were just black. Plus, there was some awful back light bleed. Overall, not a very pleasant experience.

I finally got hold of Dell, and they managed to talk me into trying an exchange for the 2408. So, now I'm using my 5 year old 20" (1680x1050) 2005FPW, and the 2408WFP is sitting on top of its box waiting for a replacement...

If the replacement doesn't work out, I think I might have to save up my pennies and spring for an NEC LCD2490WUXI-BK (MSRP $1099), but that is a pricey screen and there are still no guarantees that it will meet my needs. I've also considered the Planar PX2611W, but I've read that it has issues with displaying 1080p content. It apparently does 1:1 scaling, but it introduces color banding not present at 1920x1200.

Sorry for the long post, but I've kinda felt the need to get this out and I know that if there is anywhere that I might find any comprehension, empathy, or even suggestions it will be here. Is my situation normal? Am I just too picky, or has the overall quality of LCDs just taken a downturn lately?

 

[Phynaz]

Welcome to the race to the bottom.

Look at all the posts here, they are almost always about price. Therefore the vendors have delivered what the public wants - cheap displays.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: Phynaz
Welcome to the race to the bottom.

Look at all the posts here, they are almost always about price. Therefore the vendors have delivered what the public wants - cheap displays.

The industry always moves as a reaction to the public, and they always lag. There's going to be a roller coaster of price vs. quality over the next several years. Early LCDs were expensive luxury items anyway, so there was less concern about price and more about overcoming their early shortcomings. Eventually they became the thing everyone wanted so people started demanding cheaper products. Now that we have them, a lot of people who were never monitor enthusiasts before are starting to realize that there are better LCDs to be had. Companies like Dell and LG are slowly releasing a few competitively-priced IPS panels into the market and they seem to be popular.

Ideally, this will all result in a nice tiered pricing scheme and accurate and complete labeling of monitors. It's hard for IPS panels to take hold among anyone who isn't already a display whore when you have to use a chart on some website somewhere to figure out which ones are IPS, which are *VA, and which are TN. I want to see the term IPS work its way into marketing copy instead of just having contrast ratios, luminosity values, and response times. There's definitely a niche for higher quality but still reasonably priced monitors out there, right between the cheap <$200 LCDs and the $1000+ professional quality ones. Someone just needs to carve that niche out.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
There's definitely a niche for higher quality but still reasonably priced monitors out there, right between the cheap <$200 LCDs and the $1000+ professional quality ones. Someone just needs to carve that niche out.

You hit the nail on the head with this. There is a pretty huge gap in the 24" LCD market between $500 - 1000. Given my needs, I'm probably looking for something in the "prosumer" segment. I don't do design or graphics work, so absolutely perfect color accuracy is not a must. I also don't want to have to spend an additional $300 on a Spyder3 Pro to calibrate the monitor (although, it might be a purchase I make down the road). I just want a panel that has believable color, crisp text, and can scale 1920x1080 1:1. This was actually the reason the $800ish Planar PX2611W was a contender until I found out about the banding issues with 1920x1080.

Another thing I've noticed in shopping for LCDs retail is that they are almost all way too bright and the colors are over done. I'm thinking this is done for showroom appeal. People shopping in brightly lit retail stores are probably more likely to buy the LCD that catches their eye because of its vibrant colors. The problem is that most people don't use their home PCs in brightly lit areas. I tend to keep my computer area pretty dim, and these bright screens are hard on the eyes in a dim room.

Companies like Dell and LG are slowly releasing a few competitively-priced IPS panels into the market and they seem to be popular.

The 2408WFP is actually an example of this, and why I agreed to try out a replacement (although, my confidence in it being any better is low). The 2408WFP is theoretically one of the better bangs for the buck because it does have an S-PVA (instead of TN) panel. My concern is quality control.

HP also has a monitor that seems like it would fill that niche as well. The LP2475w http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc...0-3884471-3648442.html Although, from reading reviews on it, quality control again seems to be an issue. I guess as long as the retailers/manufacturers will let us picky customers play 'monitor roulette' it's an OK strategy on their part, but damn I hate talking to Dell's reps.

...it's too bad that Samsung monitors have taken a serious turn for the worse. I remember when I was shopping for the Dell 2005WFP, I used to drool over Samsung's 24" SyncMaster 215T (I think that's the model). Now, I look at Samsung's LCDs like the T260 and I'm disappointed. Then there is Apple who has abandoned DVI in favor of the mini Display port making their LCDs not currently usable with a PC (I have no idea if Apple screens do 1:1 scaling either).

 

[kmmatney]

I think the Soyo Topaz (S-PVA) was the monitor to get while it was available. Luckily I get in on it, and have had a near-perfect experience so far. If they still made it with the same orginal panel, it would be easy to recommend. It also has built-in 4:3 scaling, which is nice. My video card can do 1:1 pixel mapping if I want it to.

 

[SickBeast]

IME Sharp makes the best displays from a gaming perspective.

I'm pretty sure that they have 26" and 32" models that do 1080P and are quite reasonable in price.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

I'm not going to hold my breath for a no compromise LCD, I'd wager we'll have OLED by then

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
I'm not going to hold my breath for a no compromise LCD, I'd wager we'll have OLED by then

I can't wait 5 years.

The LP2475w is probably what I will end up with.

But yeah, finding the the right 24" is not easy at all. Unlike 8 years ago when it seemed like everyone could recommend the DELL 2001FP.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
IME Sharp makes the best displays from a gaming perspective.

I'm pretty sure that they have 26" and 32" models that do 1080P and are quite reasonable in price.

I agree: they've been making lcd display calculators for a very long time.

 

[PurdueRy]

The reason you had issues with the Dell's colors is because you apparently didn't know its a wide gamut display. Therefore if you use applications that don't recognize color profiles and/or don't install the color profile you will get over-saturated colors. Put it in sRGB mode if you want to avoid this.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: kmmatney
I think the Soyo Topaz (S-PVA) was the monitor to get while it was available. Luckily I get in on it, and have had a near-perfect experience so far. If they still made it with the same orginal panel, it would be easy to recommend. It also has built-in 4:3 scaling, which is nice. My video card can do 1:1 pixel mapping if I want it to.

I need it to do 1:1 native. My video card can do 1:1 as well, but my Xbox 360 can not.

Originally posted by: PurdueRy
The reason you had issues with the Dell's colors is because you apparently didn't know its a wide gamut display. Therefore if you use applications that don't recognize color profiles and/or don't install the color profile you will get over-saturated colors. Put it in sRGB mode if you want to avoid this.

I actually am aware the monitor is wide gamut. I've probably read more about and messed with more settings over the past 5 days than is healthy. sRGB mode makes the screen look almost grayscale, and is widely considered unusable on this screen. Plus, even sRGB doesn't fix the issue with the text.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
I'm not going to hold my breath for a no compromise LCD, I'd wager we'll have OLED by then

I can't wait 5 years.

The LP2475w is probably what I will end up with.

But yeah, finding the the right 24" is not easy at all. Unlike 8 years ago when it seemed like everyone could recommend the DELL 2001FP.

Yep try and find non TN 24" 1920x1080 16:9 monitor they don't exist ,anyway I'm happy with my Asus VW246H TN panel for now until we get some better panel types down the road.

Personally if I was buying 1920x1200 LCD 16:10 in 24" size I would go for NEC MultiSync 24WMGX3 (I'm aware its not available in all countries).

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: kmmatney
I think the Soyo Topaz (S-PVA) was the monitor to get while it was available. Luckily I get in on it, and have had a near-perfect experience so far. If they still made it with the same orginal panel, it would be easy to recommend. It also has built-in 4:3 scaling, which is nice. My video card can do 1:1 pixel mapping if I want it to.

I need it to do 1:1 native. My video card can do 1:1 as well, but my Xbox 360 can not.

Originally posted by: PurdueRy
The reason you had issues with the Dell's colors is because you apparently didn't know its a wide gamut display. Therefore if you use applications that don't recognize color profiles and/or don't install the color profile you will get over-saturated colors. Put it in sRGB mode if you want to avoid this.

I actually am aware the monitor is wide gamut. I've probably read more about and messed with more settings over the past 5 days than is healthy. sRGB mode makes the screen look almost grayscale, and is widely considered unusable on this screen. Plus, even sRGB doesn't fix the issue with the text.

Ok so have you tried turning off cleartype or text smoothing? Both of those cause green/magenta "ghosting". You need to disable it and then reopen the window to see the effect of the disabled text smoothing.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: kmmatney
I think the Soyo Topaz (S-PVA) was the monitor to get while it was available. Luckily I get in on it, and have had a near-perfect experience so far. If they still made it with the same orginal panel, it would be easy to recommend. It also has built-in 4:3 scaling, which is nice. My video card can do 1:1 pixel mapping if I want it to.

I need it to do 1:1 native. My video card can do 1:1 as well, but my Xbox 360 can not.

Originally posted by: PurdueRy
The reason you had issues with the Dell's colors is because you apparently didn't know its a wide gamut display. Therefore if you use applications that don't recognize color profiles and/or don't install the color profile you will get over-saturated colors. Put it in sRGB mode if you want to avoid this.

I actually am aware the monitor is wide gamut. I've probably read more about and messed with more settings over the past 5 days than is healthy. sRGB mode makes the screen look almost grayscale, and is widely considered unusable on this screen. Plus, even sRGB doesn't fix the issue with the text.

Ok so have you tried turning off cleartype or text smoothing?

Purdue makes a good point here,I always turn off cleartype and text smoothing,so far on all my LCDs over the years always look better with these off.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: kmmatney
I think the Soyo Topaz (S-PVA) was the monitor to get while it was available. Luckily I get in on it, and have had a near-perfect experience so far. If they still made it with the same orginal panel, it would be easy to recommend. It also has built-in 4:3 scaling, which is nice. My video card can do 1:1 pixel mapping if I want it to.

I need it to do 1:1 native. My video card can do 1:1 as well, but my Xbox 360 can not.

Originally posted by: PurdueRy
The reason you had issues with the Dell's colors is because you apparently didn't know its a wide gamut display. Therefore if you use applications that don't recognize color profiles and/or don't install the color profile you will get over-saturated colors. Put it in sRGB mode if you want to avoid this.

I actually am aware the monitor is wide gamut. I've probably read more about and messed with more settings over the past 5 days than is healthy. sRGB mode makes the screen look almost grayscale, and is widely considered unusable on this screen. Plus, even sRGB doesn't fix the issue with the text.

Ok so have you tried turning off cleartype or text smoothing? Both of those cause green/magenta "ghosting". You need to disable it and then reopen the window to see the effect of the disabled text smoothing.

Yes. I have played around with Cleartype extensively. The thing is, I had my 2408WFP set up in a dual monitor configuration with my 2005FPW so I could compare them directly. No matter what I did, the 2408WFP could not display text as clearly as the 2005FPW. This is even the case if I completely disregard any color accuracy whatsoever and just try any configuration that I can possibly think to get rid of the smudgy looking text.

My digital camera is getting fixed by Canon right now as part of a recall, and I don't think my cell phone will be able to capture this issue. Otherwise, I would post some pics of what I'm seeing.

The author of this blog: Dell's UltraSharp 2408WFP: A tale of woe posted a picture of the issue here. Although, I would consider this a pretty mild example, and it doesn't really show how irritating on the eyes this really is. Basically, your eyes don't realize that the actual image you are looking at is out of focus and keep trying to focus. After about 30 mins of that, your eyes and head feel like you've been using an old CRT for about 10 hours straight.

Based on the web research I've done, the issue seems to stem from an incorrect sharpness adjustment. Basically, the theory is that the sharpness is not quite neutral by default and that setting the sharpness higher or lower either results in aliased or fuzzy text. Apparently, Dell has made the adjustment more granular since rev A00, which allowed for a sharpness adjustment in increments of 25, whereas my A03 allows for sharpness adjustment in increments of 10. Even at increments of 10, the image and text is either overly sharp or fuzzy.

The interesting thing about the sharpness control is the fact this it is available at all when using a digital source such as DVI or HDMI. Generally, sharpness is an adjustment reserved for analog input (I can confirm this option is disabled on the Dell 2007FP I'm typing this on right now).

 

[uclaLabrat]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
I'm not going to hold my breath for a no compromise LCD, I'd wager we'll have OLED by then

I can't wait 5 years.

The LP2475w is probably what I will end up with.

But yeah, finding the the right 24" is not easy at all. Unlike 8 years ago when it seemed like everyone could recommend the DELL 2001FP.

Panasonic/Toshiba and Sony are threatening next year with OLEDs. Something like a 22 or 27 inch display.

 

[brblx]

....for two grand.

 

[zagood]

Go back to the HP w2338h and get an aftermarket LCD mount. I know, you shouldn't have to, but if you've already found a panel you can accept, fill in the gaps.

The Ergotron Neo-Flex (or 3M branded equivalent at Staples) for $40-$50 should work well. You just won't be able to rotate it into portrait mode, but I don't think that's really your intention with a 24" 16:9.

http://www.ergotron.com/Produc...age/en-US/default.aspx

-z

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: uclaLabrat

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
I'm not going to hold my breath for a no compromise LCD, I'd wager we'll have OLED by then

I can't wait 5 years.

The LP2475w is probably what I will end up with.

But yeah, finding the the right 24" is not easy at all. Unlike 8 years ago when it seemed like everyone could recommend the DELL 2001FP.

Panasonic/Toshiba and Sony are threatening next year with OLEDs. Something like a 22 or 27 inch display.

I just read that Sony has scrapped their OLED plans as they have determined that they are not viable for larger screens.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: uclaLabrat

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
I'm not going to hold my breath for a no compromise LCD, I'd wager we'll have OLED by then

I can't wait 5 years.

The LP2475w is probably what I will end up with.

But yeah, finding the the right 24" is not easy at all. Unlike 8 years ago when it seemed like everyone could recommend the DELL 2001FP.

Panasonic/Toshiba and Sony are threatening next year with OLEDs. Something like a 22 or 27 inch display.

I just read that Sony has scrapped their OLED plans as they have determined that they are not viable for larger screens.

This seems to be incorrect (or at least denied by Sony FWIW): http://blogs.zdnet.com/home-theater/?p=777

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: brblx
....for two grand.

Hopefully, the presence of OLEDs at the high end will force prices of traditional LCDs down. Same with LED-backlit LCDs. Nice as they are, they're still expensive, and CCFL-backlit LCDs still do the job fine.

 

[evolucion8]

my hp1965 uses a p-mva panel and im quite happy with its great contrast, viewing angle and color reproduction. but its a 19 in and has a native resolution of 1280?1024 which probably is too small for ur tastes

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: evolucion8
my hp1965 uses a p-mva panel and im quite happy with its great contrast, viewing angle and color reproduction. but its a 19 in and has a native resolution of 1280?1024 which probably is too small for ur tastes

You are correct. If I want to go smaller than 24", I'll be content to use my Dell 2005FPW.

Although that does look like a nice LCD. It should be though, as it isn't cheap for a 19" panel.

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc...0-3884471-3296839.html $289.00 MSRP

compared to HP's consumer 21" panel:

http://www.shopping.hp.com/pro...fronts/FV585AA%2523ABA $239.99 MSRP

 

[nitromullet]

Got my replacement 2408WFP from Dell. Fast turn around/shipping on the RMA. While I'm pretty underwhelmed at the customer experience provided by Dell's CS/TS, their shipping/logistics efficiency is impressive. I'll report back on the monitor itself later on this evening. /fingers crossed

 

[yacoub]

I'm just disappointed that I'm still waiting for another affordable IPS-based display without issues to replace my over 3-year-old 2007WFP.

I would prefer 24" 1920x1200, but there aren't any affordable IPS-based displays in that range that have very low input latency and good reviews all around in the basic LCD categories we all would expect from a monitor we purchase.

This is frustrating. Dell could score a huge win with gamers if they could get back to a quality IPS panel and especially a 24" one, for a reasonable price. But only if it has less than 1 frame of input latency. Which is do-able, just not if they want to be the same old cheap Dell they've become.

The 2209WA or whatever it's called is close, it's just too low res and has too many quality issues. a 24" IPS model (1920x) with better consistent quality would be perfect for ~$400. Make it happen.