Qualcomm presents the 845

Discussion in 'CPUs and Overclocking' started by krumme, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. krumme

    krumme Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,243
    Likes Received:
    993
    Nothingness likes this.
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads - Qualcomm presents Forum Date
    Intel accuses Qualcomm of trying to kill mobile chip competition CPUs and Overclocking Jul 21, 2017
    Qualcomm 10nm server CPU on track for end of 2017 CPUs and Overclocking Jul 21, 2017
    MSFT-Qualcomm partnership has ruffled Intel's feathers[Hot Hardware] CPUs and Overclocking Jun 10, 2017
    Mobile chips 2017: Qualcomm, Mediatek, Exynos and More CPUs and Overclocking Apr 2, 2017
    Could Skylake present us a regression in single-threaded performance? CPUs and Overclocking Oct 30, 2014

  3. DrMrLordX

    DrMrLordX Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2000
    Messages:
    9,078
    Likes Received:
    922
    And on top of that, you will be able to get Win10 notebooks running these. I think?

    I will have to retract my statement that the ARMy passed over the "desktop" market and went straight for server.

    Qualcomm wants it all, right now.
     
  4. french toast

    french toast Senior member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    412
    This took me by surprise, those modified A75s at 2.8ghz? With L3?...system cache?..4k 10bit hdr 60fps recording and playback?....yikes!

    Also interestingly the A75s have some modifications to run non native ARM code better....hello windows.
    This bodes well for Qualcomm Snapdragon custom windows tablet chip that they have said is coming at some point...just imagine if done on tsmc 7nm or Samsung 8nm?...very interesting.

    I have to say though the prices of those windows on arm are far too expensive for what they are imo, I was expecting prices around 399-499$...why would you buy one when you can have a raven ridge notebook for near same money?
     
  5. krumme

    krumme Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,243
    Likes Received:
    993
    Lower tdp and lte. Lighter and always connected?
    Sub 900g 13 inch ms office business stuff?
     
  6. coercitiv

    coercitiv Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,341
    Likes Received:
    1,076
    Anandtech had nice coverage on the subject.

    While most specs are impressing, it seems to me the most interesting novelty is ARM's DynamiQ CPU cluster organization:
    Also this:
     
    #5 coercitiv, Dec 9, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
    krumme likes this.
  7. Thala

    Thala Senior member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    18
    The HP Envy X2 Tablet with Snapdragon 835 is always connected with LTE - 12 inch, 680 grams, 6.9mm thick - yet it supports 20hours of video playback and several weeks! of connected standby. Raven ridge will not come even close to this.
     
  8. Thala

    Thala Senior member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    18
    Technically the L3$ is part of what ARM calls the DynamIQ SharedUnit (DSU). L3$ is strictly exclusive and can be updated from external master by either the AMBA CHI or ACE interfaces or over ACP port.
    DSU support up to 8 cores, from which 4 can be large cores. Only supported cores at the moment are A55 and A75...so you cannot put say an A53 inside.
     
    #7 Thala, Dec 9, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  9. AMDisTheBEST

    AMDisTheBEST Senior member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    67
    I am waiting for the day when arm finally break through the 3.0 ghz barrier. 4 watt chip at 3.0+ ghz, isn’t that amazing?
     
  10. Lodix

    Lodix Senior member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    51
    Second half next year on 7/8nm.
     
  11. William Gaatjes

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    16,028
    Likes Received:
    305
    I read this yesterday :
    Lot of details here :
    https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1332695


     
  12. french toast

    french toast Senior member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    412
    It has some advantages yes I agree, but although I love the whole idea of windows on ARM and have been a staunch proponent of it, I was expecting these lightweight smartphone chips that retail for around 70$ (I think) would enable a far cheaper windows experience, as the emulation seems to be taking a larger chunk of the cycles than I thought, plus almost no modern games can be played due to no 64bit support.

    Qualcomm said they will be building a bespoke SOC for the job at some point and these kryo 385 have some modifications to help emulation I'm led to believe so things will get better.
    The real winner may be an incentive for Devs to start making apps and games universal apps...now that would be very interesting indeed.

    As it is personally I wouldn't pay those prices for that performance, despite some of the advantages.
     
  13. DrMrLordX

    DrMrLordX Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2000
    Messages:
    9,078
    Likes Received:
    922
    Battery life would be my guess. Performance and price won't be there on this generation of products. Qualcomm is through testing the waters, though, and wants to get product on shelves to establish some mindshare (if nothing else, at least among OEMs).

    You also have to ask yourself, "What software ecosystem does MS want for themselves in the future?" Do they want Wintel or Qualdows? Remember that Win10-on-ARM, at least at the present, is almost exclusively consumer-facing with the Win10 app store being central to the experience. Wintel users have broadly rejected the app store along with most of the "universal" app experience. Mobile users have behaved the same way.

    To me, it looks like MS would want Qualcomm to lead the charge into the low-end notebook sector, pushing universal apps as the main feature of Windows devices. That might let MS build a base for mobile products in the future.

    I dunno how I feel about that. Having a Linux box running something like that would be hella cool. Watching Qualcomm and MS try to wipe out the Wintel platform does not sit so well with me.

    I see emulation as being less of an issue. I'm not 100% sure where all the growth potential is right now but over the last ten years, it has been among those who really don't care as much about x86 compatibility as in days past. People who adopted Google Play and iOS App Store are probably not going to try and run traditional PC software on their notebooks and such. I mean hell look at how many Chromebooks are selling out there.

    Folks are more ready than ever to step off Wintel, and MS knows it. They want that universal app thing to be the standard for all Windows software development since it improves their control and their bottom line. It hasn't worked out for them yet, but with Qualcomm on their side . . .
     
  14. Thala

    Thala Senior member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    18
    Potentially they could enable cheaper devices, but a rather prefer an high quality device will all the features like LTE, Digitizer etc. along with a high quality screen.
    People who prefer to be always connected and do not want to worry about battery and standby duration not necessarily want a cheaply built device.

    Emulation works surprisingly well to the point im completely impressed. From the early benchmarks it looks that performance takes only a 50% hit, which for emulation is quite impressive. And honestly i would not want to play AAA game on any laptop. I have a high performance desktop for this. I am just looking for a high quality mobile device with LTE and long battery duration - so these ARM devices fit that requirement rather well. Keep in mind we are looking at 2x native CPU performance and 3-4x GPU performance compared to the Atom crowd.

    I am hoping much more for ARM64 Win32 bit native or .Net/CLI desktop apps. You can compile Win32 native apps for ARM64 with Visual Studio.
     
  15. Bondrewd

    Bondrewd Senior member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2017
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    114
    O-kay.
    Also it's x86 only.
     
  16. Av9114

    Av9114 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trying anything and everything to increase the number and quality of UWP apps is the only angle that makes sense to me from a MS perspective. I don't believe for a second that MS is content to concede the mobile/phone market for eternity and/or wait for the next bit thing. Whether that's delusional or not, is a different question, but they have effectively infinite resources and plenty of engineering talent. I don't believe for a second that they will ever give up internally.

    From Qualcomm's perspective, they don't really have anything to lose and it probably didn't require much effort on their part. Although if the market reception is really poor it could hurt them long term. So they need to make sure they think the performance is good enough.

    That said, the designs that I've seen don't make a lot of sense to me. They seem too expensive, too big (although this is probably easily remedied given the battery life), and probably too slow. If you want a LTE connected Windows device and don't mind paying the extra $10 a month or whatever, is a few hundred extra upfront for an Intel machine really a deal breaker? It seems like a far more compelling option for a Chromebook at a Chromebook like prices.
     
  17. Thala

    Thala Senior member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    18
    Thing is if you really want a truly mobile Windows device, there are no options at all. Its like paying more for getting less when you go for an x86 machine. I would not mind paying a few hundred more for such a mobile device - but certainly not for an Intel machine. Performance should be excellent if you mostly looking at office/mail/browsing with the occasional x86 Win32 app thrown into the mix - we are talking Silvermont Atom times 2 CPU performance wise and much more GPU performance wise. All the pre-reviews as far describing the Snapdragon Windows 10 devices as very snappy in particular compared to something like Core-M.
     
  18. Abwx

    Abwx Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    8,367
    Likes Received:
    208
    LOL, at those perfs level i agree that it will be far from the S835..

    https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-...ederholung-des-Netbook-Dilemmas.269644.0.html

    CB 11.5 ST score is the same as a 2GHz Kabini but only 1.5GHz for the MT score, dunno what is the Snapdragon TDP but FTR a 14nm shrinked Beema@2GHz would be barely at 5W.

    For a 2C/4T Ryzen APU expect 1.6-1.7GHz@5W, a CB 11.5 MT score of 2.2 and ST at 0.78.
     
  19. IntelUser2000

    IntelUser2000 Elite Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2003
    Messages:
    4,654
    Likes Received:
    239
    Competition isn't Silvermont, its Goldmont Plus.

    By the way:

    Snapdragon 835: 0.5/1.5
    Atom Z3775(Bay Trail): 0.4/1.5
    Pentium N4200(Goldmont core): 0.6/2.08
     
  20. beginner99

    beginner99 Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,538
    Likes Received:
    237
    They don't use only 4 watt when actually running at 3ghz+.
     
  21. Av9114

    Av9114 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    4
    According to every benchmark an 835 still gets smashed by an Intel Y-series. Completely different price point, but my point was someone that wants cellular probably isn't or shouldn't be that price sensitive.

    If you ignore the cellular aspect and compare to Pentium N4200 or the new N5000, it's a little more interesting and there are pros and cons but it seems like the current 835 offerings are more expensive by a decent amount. Maybe that will change when there are more choices.
     
  22. Elixer

    Elixer Lifer

    Joined:
    May 7, 2002
    Messages:
    10,163
    Likes Received:
    681
    Why is it so difficult to find pricing on Qualcomms chips?
    I see an average of ~$20, but that seems really low.
     
  23. AMDisTheBEST

    AMDisTheBEST Senior member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    67
    no, that is close. Arm chip is usually dirt cheap. Meditek sells its lowly mtk 68xx 32bit quadcore SoCs for like 1$ per pop. I am pretty sure even lower dual core sells for just a quater. Apple's A11 bionic costs Apple just $40 to manufacture per chip/per phone.

    Compare that to intel i5 Us, selling usually between 200 and 300 USD to the oems

    That makes us wonder.... what causes apple to charge $1000 for a bloody phone???
     
  24. krumme

    krumme Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,243
    Likes Received:
    993
    We see 2x a73 plus 4x a55 or is it a53 entering samsung midrange next year in the a series.
    Those a73 is only 2 wide. So probably very small? Smaller than apple little cores perhaps?
    Makes performance gain from the high end cores kind of moot in a phone imo.
    But hey about time midrange gets a huge lift.

    It seems to me arm have selected to the smaller side with the a73 design to protect their turf.
     
  25. Thala

    Thala Senior member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    18
    Indeed, the Gemini Lake Series (Goldmont+) would be a match to Snapdragon 835 CPU performance wise. They should still lack GPU performance though, but i guess we have to wait and see how good Qualcomms DirectX driver is.
    In addition i do not see any x86 CPU achieve even close to 30 days connected standby time or 20 hours video playback time - with other words i do not expect a miracle from Intel or from anyone designing x86 CPUs for that matter.

    TDP is a very bad measure when you want to reason about actual power usage. A device is very rarely running at the thermal boundaries (TDP) and if it does it typically throttles if you throw more work at it. With other words 2 device both rated at 5W TDP may show a significantly different power draw in actual use.
     
  26. Yakk

    Yakk Golden Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2016
    Messages:
    1,411
    Likes Received:
    243
    "Magic" is expensive.