Q: Geoff's Stats Server... what harware for the new server???

[GeoffS]

I'm trying to figure out what I need for the new server... obviously, funds are limited and I've been using stuff I have lying around here. The current 'server' is a Biostar K7VKQ mother board and an XP1700+ chip with 512Mb ram. I'm seeing that the memory usage is rarely above 200Mb and the CPU is rarely stressed... usually only during the updates which are hourly for some projects and daily for others. I'm looking for some input on what would make a good platform for the stats server.

Should I go dually?
If so, what speed chips?
Are the older Katmai 550s with the 512 cache good enough in dual mode?
Should I be looking at something faster? Dual FCPGA in the 900mHz range?
If dual is not required, stay on the Athlon XP CPU?
Recommended motherboards for stability?
Do I really need SCSI drives (I don't think so...)?
Is 512Mb DDR2100 ram sufficient (seems to be...)?
What about OS? Currently running on a Win2K Pro license. Should I be looking at Linux?
What about the webserver? Should I be looking at Apache over IIS?

What do you guys think?

Geoff

 

[Confused]

If it's currently not taxing the CPU/memory, then IMO there is really no need to upgrade them.

Hard drives are probably the only thing that could benifit from being better. SCSI is awesome for reading, as the seek times are very low, and it has awesome queueing systems. However, it does depend how hard the disks are being taxed. Of course, reliability will probably be better with SCSI over IDE, but is it worth the mammouth price difference? It will be cheaper to have a RAID1 with two IDE disks and still have more redundancy than a reasonable sized SCSI (due to there requiring a lot of data for tracking lots of projects)

Windows 2000 Pro should be fine. Lose IIS and you should be kosher. Also, then you won't have the maximum connection limit of 10 that IIS has

As for stability, I have not had any problems with my Epox nForce2 motherboard. If you're not finding you current motherboard stable, then that could be something to change, but if it's OK currently, then why bother with the hassle of changing


Just my £0.02

Oh yeah, of course, many thanks for your awesome work on the stats :thumbsup:


Garry

 

[GeoffS]

Anyone else?

 

[Baldy18]

GeoffS YGPM.

 

[networkman]

Skip the SCSI, go the SATA route - if you're planning to replace board/drives anyway.

Myself, I'm looking at the nVidia NF3-250 chipset boards, most likely the one by Chaintech with the onboard Gb LAN and hardware firewall; could be very useful for a stats server. As for the Gigabit LAN, I already have an 8port Gigabit switch in my basement, so I'm ready to go.

 

[GeoffS]

Baldy18 - back at you!

Rich... I'm kinda looking to 'older' technology since I'm probably going to foot the bill for most of this unless I put paypal buttons on the stats pages! I do have other questions for you concerning security, though, in PM...

Geoff

 

[n0cmonkey]

The hardware firewall on the nForce3 chipset boards is a way to jack up the price without providing any reasonable functionality. Ignore it.

If the current system is working fine, no need to upgrade. Stick with the Athlon, it should be fine.

If you don't know much about IIS, Apache might be easier to keep up to date. It's default installation is probably a little safer, atleast every time I've installed it from source or binaries the defaults have been reasonable.

Apache might be a problem depending on what kind of scripting you're doing, but it looks like PHP so it shouldn't be a problem. Might want to check out hardened PHP. I haven't played with it yet, but it looks interesting.

512MB of ram should be fine if the usage hasn't gone over half yet. If you have the choice between 1 stick and 2, go with the 1. It helps with upgrade possibilities.

As far as disks, SCSI is nice (REALLY nice ), but unnecessary. I'd consider 2 disks on seperate controllers though. Put the OS and applications and stuff on one and the data on the other.

Over all, I'd say your internet connection will be the limiting factor here. It doesn't matter how fast of a machine you have, if the pipe isn't big enough. Old SPARCstations can firewall the typical DSL line, and a Duron 700 can firewall a hosting company. A 1700+ should be able to keep the typical DSL/Cable line pretty full without many issues.

 

[GeoffS]

This server will be on a T1

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: GeoffS
This server will be on a T1

I'd consider bumping up the ram and maybe the CPU, but I can't see a big reason to spend a lot of money on the latest and greatest (unless you're looking for a reason to upgrade, if you are let me know, I'll edit my posts ).

Like I said, a Duron 700mhz has worked fine for firewalling a fairly large webhosting company.

If you want, take a look at processor and ram usage when your system is "busy." If your peaks are about 10 users, plan for 20.

 

[kloostec]

I'd say the most important thing for a lower load server is a redundant hard drive setup. You don't want to have a drive die and have to take your server down for a week to recover data... A nice raid 1 or 5, preferably with hot spare, is just what you need

 

[GeoffS]

Like I said... I'm probably footing the bill for most of the upgrade, so expense is an issue... the issues I am currently encountering seem to be caused by using... how shall I put this... cheap hardware... to run a 24x7 site. So, I'm looking to keep what I can and upgrade what I need to, unless I get an offer I can't refuse!

Geoff

 

[GeoffS]

Originally posted by: kloostec
I'd say the most important thing for a lower load server is a redundant hard drive setup. You don't want to have a drive die and have to take your server down for a week to recover data... A nice raid 1 or 5, preferably with hot spare, is just what you need

Yeah... I've been looking at RAID 1 motherboards tonight There are a bunch over on newegg :roll:

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: GeoffS
Like I said... I'm probably footing the bill for most of the upgrade, so expense is an issue... the issues I am currently encountering seem to be caused by using... how shall I put this... cheap hardware... to run a 24x7 site. So, I'm looking to keep what I can and upgrade what I need to, unless I get an offer I can't refuse!

Geoff

Whatever you consider getting, search here and on google for information on it. I got a vp6 from someone here before I realized the board is crap. I got it and 2 cpus for a good price, so it was still a good deal for me.

If you stick to a generation or two behind, there should be enough information out there to figure out if the parts are reliable or not. My systems aren't the fastest, but most of them are damn good when it comes to stability.

Of course, that all came at a premium...

 

[networkman]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
The hardware firewall on the nForce3 chipset boards is a way to jack up the price without providing any reasonable functionality. Ignore it.

Completely dissagree. Especially given the location that Geoff is going to be running this, a hardware firewall is a very good thing. While not applicable to Geoff's particular situation, those of who attend LAN parties would also find it of particular benefit.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: networkman

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
The hardware firewall on the nForce3 chipset boards is a way to jack up the price without providing any reasonable functionality. Ignore it.

Completely dissagree. Especially given the location that Geoff is going to be running this, a hardware firewall is a very good thing. While not applicable to Geoff's particular situation, those of who attend LAN parties would also find it of particular benefit.

How many people get hacked before the ethernet drivers have loaded?

 

[kb9skw]

Your not going to like what I suggest Geoff, but I think you need to consider it. Your current problems will be no more if you invest in the right hardware right now.

The file server at my lab is made by Micron, the RAM company. It is based on an Intel MB440LX Balboa motherboard and has two 200MHz Pentium Pro CPUs. Two 9.1GB SCSI drives in a NTFS dynamic mirror array make up the OS partition with another 4.3GB SCSI drive for file storage across the 15 node LAN. All is rounded out with 256MB of ECC EDO RAM. Point is, even though it is older hardware, it is server class hardware, it will never go down due to hardware problems. The most I have had it up for one time was 82 days, but I needed to update the OS and clean out the chassis so it went offline for a few days. That was a few months ago and it has not had any issues since.

If you get the right hardware upfront, you will save yourself any problems in the future. Make sure any hardware you get is on the Microsoft Hardware Compatibility List and all drivers you use are digitally signed by MS. If you meet these two things you should not have any hardware issues.

Personally I would start looking for a Tyan or Intel motherboard. Do you have PC100 RAM available to use. If not then spending more money on a newer motherboard and reusing your PC2100 would be better than buying something that would require you to purchase PC100 RAM. I would not get a Socket 370 motherboard unless you already have the CPUs, they are just not worth in compared to two Athlon MPs or modded XPs on a more expensive MPX motherboard.

Don't forget about neweggs refurb section. Heck for $130 you can pick up a Tomcat K8S, tack on an Opteron 140 and your all set for a kick ass server will not need to ever be kicked as you are walking out the door.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: kb9skw
Your not going to like what I suggest Geoff, but I think you need to consider it. Your current problems will be no more if you invest in the right hardware right now.

The file server at my lab is made by Micron, the RAM company. It is based on an Intel MB440LX Balboa motherboard and has two 200MHz Pentium Pro CPUs. Two 9.1GB SCSI drives in a NTFS dynamic mirror array make up the OS partition with another 4.3GB SCSI drive for file storage across the 15 node LAN. All is rounded out with 256MB of ECC EDO RAM. Point is, even though it is older hardware, it is server class hardware, it will never go down due to hardware problems. The most I have had it up for one time was 82 days, but I needed to update the OS and clean out the chassis so it went offline for a few days. That was a few months ago and it has not had any issues since.

If you get the right hardware upfront, you will save yourself any problems in the future. Make sure any hardware you get is on the Microsoft Hardware Compatibility List and all drivers you use are digitally signed by MS. If you meet these two things you should not have any hardware issues.

Personally I would start looking for a Tyan or Intel motherboard. Do you have PC100 RAM available to use. If not then spending more money on a newer motherboard and reusing your PC2100 would be better than buying something that would require you to purchase PC100 RAM. I would not get a Socket 370 motherboard unless you already have the CPUs, they are just not worth in compared to two Athlon MPs or modded XPs on a more expensive MPX motherboard.

Don't forget about neweggs refurb section. Heck for $130 you can pick up a Tomcat K8S, tack on an Opteron 140 and your all set for a kick ass server will not need to ever be kicked as you are walking out the door.

My iBook gets those kinds of uptimes.

Over all though, I agree. I've got a Tyan in one machine (although it's one of the flakey ones), and a SuperMicro (serverworks) in another and they've both been rock solid.

If you were doing this at another time GeoffS, I'd offer you one of those machines and just get myself a new one.

EDIT: If you're still looking for parts in July, I might be able to help a little more than advice.

 

[GeoffS]

Great input guys... anyone care to venture an opinion? Just looking to make the TA stats pages as stable and reliable as possible!

 

[Orange Kid]

My .02$

Mother boards...for dual setups I prefer Tyan boards, Intel or via chipsets...for single cpu I prefer MSI boards, again either Intel or via chipsets. Both these have been the most reliable boards for me.

CPU's... cost to me is the biggest factor as both Intel and AMD have good performance...AMD is my CPU of choice nowadays I would think your 1700+ should be fine for the job.

RAM 512 should be plenty... biggest concern here is reliabilty... I buy good ram and under clock it...ie:I run pc3500 ram at 3200 speeds, pc133 at 100... this has been the area of most problems for me till I
started "overbuying" my ram needs.

Hard drives...SCSI is the best but $$$$, SATA will be my next ones to use, alas, I use IDE as that is what I can afford...but I will only use Maxtor or Seagate, as other makers (and I have had them all) have not been reliable for me.

Power...buy good power supplies..I prefer Antec 350~380's

Network...U got a T1 go a Gig

Video...prefer cheap Nvidia chipset something for server as the drivers are more mature...ATI for gaming though

OS...Win2k is what I use most, update, update, update though. Linux is vunerable to attacks too, but I will most likely be going to it in the future, too used to the point and click and love it after starting my computing life in the DOS mode I hate IIS and use Apache. I have found it easier to configure, works well with PHP, pearl and MySQL, I'm sure MSSQL is equally friendly.

There is my totally usless info, hope some helps

 

[CXGJarrod]

I am going to be the devils advocate here. Yes, apache is a good webserver. According to Netcraft, roughly 70% of all websites on the net are run by apache. I do want to say though, a poorly configured Apache is just as bad as a poorly configured IIS. I think that Geoff should run what he feels more comfortable with.... That way his site will have less of a chance of getting hacked. (Make sure you get URl Scan if you are going to use IIS - free from MS)

Anyway, as this is a hardware thread I would say that I have 5 websites (with a decent amount of traffic) running on a Dell Poweredge with Dually 700 p3's and that runs fine. (with 4 SCSI harddrives in a RAID 5 array) So if you CPU is not maxing out serving out the webpages, then you should be fine keeping the same hardware. I do recommend (from my experience) that using SCSI drives or a raid array will improve responce times for your database and web serving needs.

Also Geoff, if you have any IIS or Win2k problems PM me and I would be glad to help. It might be some payback for all those awesome stats that you do.

 

[Zbox]

What's your budget?

 

[GeoffS]

Dunno yet... I'm about to post a page on the stats site soliciting help to pay of the upgrade... right now, Baldy is making me a hell of an offer for his ASUS A7M266-D and two XP 1800+ with two Thermal take Volcano 9 Coolmod heatsinks that I'm having alot of trouble turning down! :shocked:

 

[Freewolf]

Originally posted by: GeoffS
Dunno yet... I'm about to post a page on the stats site soliciting help to pay of the upgrade... right now, Baldy is making me a hell of an offer for his ASUS A7M266-D and two XP 1800+ with two Thermal take Volcano 9 Coolmod heatsinks that I'm having alot of trouble turning down! :shocked:

I would think that would be able to do anything you could need for quite a while.

 

[GeoffS]

...except for the RAID... I'd have to get a controller...

Geoff

 

[CXGJarrod]

Originally posted by: GeoffS
...except for the RAID... I'd have to get a controller...

Geoff

Its not totally neccessary, but it might help on the Read/Write times for your server. It can get expensive to put in...