Q. about homosexuality in animals

[BigToquex]

I was having a discussion with my gf about homosexuality. She insists that being gay is nothing but a choice. So I brought up the fact that there are gay animals. Animals don't choose to have sex like humans do. Its just blow your load and get out.

She then asked me to show her an example of an animal that was gay. She asked if the animal ONLY had same sex partners, or if it was something like a Kane Toad (where she says "just likes to have sex" and will have sex with either of the genders)

I of course don't know the answer to this, so I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on it.

(In the end I also brought up, that if it was only a choice, how do you explain the people who are gay, who don't want to be gay and hate themselves because they are gay).

 

[BDawg]

Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

 

[OulOat]

Like pengins. Fat, stubby pengins that sit on their asses all day playing Linuxxx.

 

[glen]

Why would anyone choose to be gay?

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: BDawg
Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

Actually only homosexual like behaviour has been observed in animals.

No actually gay animals have been found.

As for toads:

It has been noted that during the mating season (mid-late spring) male toads will mount male toads. They have also been noted to mount wood, fish, turtles and just about any other object.

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg
Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

Actually only homosexual like behaviour has been observed in animals.

No actually gay animals have been found.

As for toads:

It has been noted that during the mating season (mid-late spring) male toads will mount male toads. They have also been noted to mount wood, fish, turtles and just about any other object.

So, mating with only other animals of the same sex is only homosexual-like behavior? What do they need to do for homosexual behavior, make some window dressings?

 

[Electrode]

I'll say this much: it is AMAZING how quickly a pair of male ducks, without access to females, will resort to homosexuality. I've seen it in my own back yard with my own two eyes.

Other observations:

Hens crowing, fighting, and calling others to food
Hens, seperated from roosters, becoming so downright horny that they will attempt to mate with ANYTHING, including rocks, fenceposts, and people

 

[BigToquex]

Actually only homosexual like behaviour has been observed in animals.

No actually gay animals have been found.

I was just reading a few websites and they seem to point out that a lot of times this homosexual behaviour can be the result of a lack of exposure to female animals, or that the non-dominant male (usually the younger males) don't have access to the females until they become more dominant. At which point, they become hetero again.

So in this sense, these animals are bi-sexual then?

 

[MaxDSP]

eh, I had something important to say but couldnt place it into words :beer:

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg
Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

Actually only homosexual like behaviour has been observed in animals.

No actually gay animals have been found.

As for toads:

It has been noted that during the mating season (mid-late spring) male toads will mount male toads. They have also been noted to mount wood, fish, turtles and just about any other object.

So, mating with only other animals of the same sex is only homosexual-like behavior? What do they need to do for homosexual behavior, make some window dressings?

the fact that they'll attempt to hump anything makes them unthinking creatures trying to satisfy themselves. since they don't have hands they can't go fapping around

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg
Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

Actually only homosexual like behaviour has been observed in animals.

No actually gay animals have been found.

As for toads:

It has been noted that during the mating season (mid-late spring) male toads will mount male toads. They have also been noted to mount wood, fish, turtles and just about any other object.

So, mating with only other animals of the same sex is only homosexual-like behavior? What do they need to do for homosexual behavior, make some window dressings?

You need to stop putting human traits on animals. Its called anthropomorphism.

Let me know when you see 2 male vertabrates have sex and produce offspring. You are seeing homosexual like behaviour. How many times must you be told the same thing?

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg
Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

Actually only homosexual like behaviour has been observed in animals.

No actually gay animals have been found.

As for toads:

It has been noted that during the mating season (mid-late spring) male toads will mount male toads. They have also been noted to mount wood, fish, turtles and just about any other object.

So, mating with only other animals of the same sex is only homosexual-like behavior? What do they need to do for homosexual behavior, make some window dressings?

You need to stop putting human traits on animals. Its called anthropomorphism.

Let me know when you see 2 male vertabrates have sex and produce offspring. You are seeing homosexual like behaviour. How many times must you be told the same thing?

It's called a joke...

So, by your definition, humans aren't homosexual, they're exibiting homosexual-like behavior since it's impossible for them to reproduce?

What do *you* call animals who will not have sex with members of the opposite sex?

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Homosexuality is not a choice any more than heterosexuality is. That's just freaking common sense. Do you choose what kind of woman you are attracted to? Why would you be able to choose which sex you are attracted to? Ask your girlfriend if she can suddenly decide to be attracted to women, then have it happen. It doesn't matter whether other animals have homosexual examples or whether there is a biological cause... but bigots like to pretend it does.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg
Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

Actually only homosexual like behaviour has been observed in animals.

No actually gay animals have been found.

As for toads:

It has been noted that during the mating season (mid-late spring) male toads will mount male toads. They have also been noted to mount wood, fish, turtles and just about any other object.

So, mating with only other animals of the same sex is only homosexual-like behavior? What do they need to do for homosexual behavior, make some window dressings?

You need to stop putting human traits on animals. Its called anthropomorphism.

Let me know when you see 2 male vertabrates have sex and produce offspring. You are seeing homosexual like behaviour. How many times must you be told the same thing?

It's called a joke...

So, by your definition, humans aren't homosexual, they're exibiting homosexual-like behavior since it's impossible for them to reproduce?

What do *you* call animals who will not have sex with members of the opposite sex?

Biologically speaking, humans are heterosexual.

Homosexuality appears to happen because of the way the brain develops in some people. Humans have a very different brain than most animals. Even the ape family brains are significantly different. Because of these differences we have conscious thought and the ability to reason logically. Also we have much more complex emotional experiences because of our advanced brains. All of our instinctual behaviour comes from the primitive part of the brain. The emotions that lower animals experience, we experience too but in a much exaggerated way. Sexuality is significantly different for us as well. We are not guided by instinct alone. We have thoughts and emotions and the ability to override instictual urges. Male and female brains are different and these differences are at the root of self-sexual indentity.

 

[silent tone]

Adolescent dolphins have homosexual sex. I forgot the reason that was given for it though.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: istallion
Adolescent dolphins have homosexual sex. I forgot the reason that was given for it though.

Because they are horny and there are no females around.

 

[theNEOone]

humans are quite complex, and i don't think it right to compare animals to humans with respect to social, sexual, and behavioral characterstics. i don't see why your g/f deems it necessary to find animal examples of homosexuality. would she require an example of schizophrenia in animals to be convinced that it exists in humans?

homosexuality is hotly debated but common sense would tell you that, at its core, homosexuality is not a choice. realize that one's preference of a sexual partner might lie along a gradient (where different characterstics gel together to produce an attractive individual), and that it might also be the case that someone's gender preferences also lie along a gradient. under these circumstances, one would have to choose either a male of female partner. in this situation an individual might make the choice to be homosexual, but the fact that the person was even attracted to the same sex was (to them) a natural occurence.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: BDawg
Homosexuality is most certainly observed in animals.

Actually only homosexual like behaviour has been observed in animals.

No actually gay animals have been found.

As for toads:

It has been noted that during the mating season (mid-late spring) male toads will mount male toads. They have also been noted to mount wood, fish, turtles and just about any other object.

So, mating with only other animals of the same sex is only homosexual-like behavior? What do they need to do for homosexual behavior, make some window dressings?

You need to stop putting human traits on animals. Its called anthropomorphism.

Let me know when you see 2 male vertabrates have sex and produce offspring. You are seeing homosexual like behaviour. How many times must you be told the same thing?

It's called a joke...

So, by your definition, humans aren't homosexual, they're exibiting homosexual-like behavior since it's impossible for them to reproduce?

What do *you* call animals who will not have sex with members of the opposite sex?

Biologically speaking, humans are heterosexual.

Homosexuality appears to happen because of the way the brain develops in some people. Humans have a very different brain than most animals. Even the ape family brains are significantly different. Because of these differences we have conscious thought and the ability to reason logically. Also we have much more complex emotional experiences because of our advanced brains. All of our instinctual behaviour comes from the primitive part of the brain. The emotions that lower animals experience, we experience too but in a much exaggerated way. Sexuality is significantly different for us as well. We are not guided by instinct alone. We have thoughts and emotions and the ability to override instictual urges. Male and female brains are different and these differences are at the root of self-sexual indentity.

Plenty of animals have conscious thought... there is no line distinguishing humans from other animals. There are degrees of thought sophistication, and all animals think. Some animals AND have a self image-- humans and orangutans for example. Some don't-- like dogs (this is why small dogs pick fights with big dogs. They don't realize that the other one is bigger).

I suppose it just makes some peole feel better to think that an elephant cries because of instinct.

 

[theNEOone]

Plenty of animals have conscious thought... there is no line distinguishing humans from other animals. There are degrees of thought sophistication, and all animals think. Some animals AND have a self image-- humans and orangutans for example. Some don't-- like dogs (this is why small dogs pick fights with big dogs. They don't realize that the other one is bigger).

you really are undermining the strength of the human brain. you need only look in front of you to realize the true power of what lies on your shoulders and how it's vastly superior to that of animals. yes, there was a time when humans underestimated the ability of animals, but that doesn't mean that the human brain is not uniquely powerful.

also, your idea of "self image" strays significantly from the idea of self-realization. self-realization is the ability to contemplate one's own existance - it's not the ability to know what one looks like. the two are totally different concepts.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: theNEOone

Plenty of animals have conscious thought... there is no line distinguishing humans from other animals. There are degrees of thought sophistication, and all animals think. Some animals AND have a self image-- humans and orangutans for example. Some don't-- like dogs (this is why small dogs pick fights with big dogs. They don't realize that the other one is bigger).

you really are undermining the strength of the human brain. you need only look in front of you to realize the true power of what lies on your shoulders and how it's vastly superior to that of animals. yes, there was a time when humans underestimated the ability of animals, but that doesn't mean that the human brain is not uniquely powerful.

also, your idea of "self image" strays significantly from the idea of self-realization. self-realization is the ability to contemplate one's own existance - it's not the ability to know what one looks like. the two are totally different concepts.

What does the strength of the human brain have to do with conscious thought?

I wasn't talking about self realization. I was talking specifically about self image, because that identifies the ability to realize that what you see in the mirror is yourself, and not an image.

 

[theNEOone]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: theNEOone

Plenty of animals have conscious thought... there is no line distinguishing humans from other animals. There are degrees of thought sophistication, and all animals think. Some animals AND have a self image-- humans and orangutans for example. Some don't-- like dogs (this is why small dogs pick fights with big dogs. They don't realize that the other one is bigger).

you really are undermining the strength of the human brain. you need only look in front of you to realize the true power of what lies on your shoulders and how it's vastly superior to that of animals. yes, there was a time when humans underestimated the ability of animals, but that doesn't mean that the human brain is not uniquely powerful.

also, your idea of "self image" strays significantly from the idea of self-realization. self-realization is the ability to contemplate one's own existance - it's not the ability to know what one looks like. the two are totally different concepts.

What does the strength of the human brain have to do with conscious thought?

I wasn't talking about self realization. I was talking specifically about self image, because that identifies the ability to realize that what you see in the mirror is yourself, and not an image.

think of an example. while a monkey might stack some boxes to grab a banana hanging from the ceiling, humans genetically design crops for increased yield and higher nutrition content. realize that this suggests that human conscious thought is far more copmlex than that of other animals. it just underlines the difference between animals and humans. if such a difference exists in the way we think, it's only natural to think that many other differences exist. in this case, homosexuality. i think the original point was that it's unintelligable to obtain direct inferences from animals w/ respect to homosexuality.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
Homosexuality is not a choice any more than heterosexuality is. That's just freaking common sense. Do you choose what kind of woman you are attracted to? Why would you be able to choose which sex you are attracted to? Ask your girlfriend if she can suddenly decide to be attracted to women, then have it happen. It doesn't matter whether other animals have homosexual examples or whether there is a biological cause... but bigots like to pretend it does.

I disagree. There is no scientific basis to say that it's "freaking common sense" that homosexuality is innate in some humans. You cannot say without a doubt that in some people they were born homosexual, since it has not been proven yet by any scientific means. There are THEORIES, but NOT PROOF.

Different people are born with different levels of urges. Some people have a tendency to become enraged easily, some people have an urge to eat a lot, and some people have homosexual tendencies. Comparing humans to animals in this respect I believe is RIDICULOUS. Animals are, by nature, heterosexual. Only in situations where females are unavailable or the animal is under some environmental stress factor will it resort to homosexuality, or sex with inanimate objects.

I do respect other peoples opinions on this subject, but I think people DO have a choice, and by saying that they DO NOT seems to be working in the wrong direction. A lot of people say "Why should this person reject his natural urge?" Well, whether or not you think homosexuality is wrong, you must agree that people surpress urges ALL THE TIME, and NOT just people with homosexual desires. We surpress rage and hatred so we don't kill someone. We surpress our sexual desires so we don't hurt people we love. We are much more complicated than animals, and these social reasons have an extreme effect.

My problem with people saying homosexuality is natural is that they think that when someone has homosexual urges they are therefore homosexual. They were born that way and that is that. Well, frankly I think that is a horrible thing to say. People have the choice whether or not to surpress an urge they have, sexual or not. I think its very uncool to say that they do not and they are stuck, which is basically what some people here are saying.

 

[Kenazo]

I would tend to say that a truly homosexual man not only prefers sex with men, but loves them as I love my wife. If you can find a similar comparison amoung animals either heterosexually or homosexually, I sure haven't heard of it.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis

Originally posted by: theNEOone

Plenty of animals have conscious thought... there is no line distinguishing humans from other animals. There are degrees of thought sophistication, and all animals think. Some animals AND have a self image-- humans and orangutans for example. Some don't-- like dogs (this is why small dogs pick fights with big dogs. They don't realize that the other one is bigger).

you really are undermining the strength of the human brain. you need only look in front of you to realize the true power of what lies on your shoulders and how it's vastly superior to that of animals. yes, there was a time when humans underestimated the ability of animals, but that doesn't mean that the human brain is not uniquely powerful.

also, your idea of "self image" strays significantly from the idea of self-realization. self-realization is the ability to contemplate one's own existance - it's not the ability to know what one looks like. the two are totally different concepts.

What does the strength of the human brain have to do with conscious thought?

I wasn't talking about self realization. I was talking specifically about self image, because that identifies the ability to realize that what you see in the mirror is yourself, and not an image.

You are not sure what you are talking about.

The ability to recognise that you are looking at your own reflection is a sign of inteligence is true. But that is a long way from conscious thought. Can that same animal ponder the origin of the universe? Or understand that hormomes regulate their bodies? Or even that a stone that is chipped a certain way will create fire?

There is a line seperating Us from other animals.

It doesn't mean other animals are stupid or worthless. I have never seen an elephant cry. Crying is a primate thing. If you mean the emotion of sorrow because of a death, then yes they experience that. That is why we experience sorrow too. We just experience it to a much greater degree due to our more advanced brain. You don't see elephants digging a grave or having a religious ceremony do you? No, because that requires a much more sophisticated brain.

 

[theNEOone]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
Homosexuality is not a choice any more than heterosexuality is. That's just freaking common sense. Do you choose what kind of woman you are attracted to? Why would you be able to choose which sex you are attracted to? Ask your girlfriend if she can suddenly decide to be attracted to women, then have it happen. It doesn't matter whether other animals have homosexual examples or whether there is a biological cause... but bigots like to pretend it does.

I disagree. There is no scientific basis to say that it's "freaking common sense" that homosexuality is innate in some humans. You cannot say without a doubt that in some people they were born homosexual, since it has not been proven yet by any scientific means. There are THEORIES, but NOT PROOF.

Different people are born with different levels of urges. Some people have a tendency to become enraged easily, some people have an urge to eat a lot, and some people have homosexual tendencies. Comparing humans to animals in this respect I believe is RIDICULOUS. Animals are, by nature, heterosexual. Only in situations where females are unavailable or the animal is under some environmental stress factor will it resort to homosexuality, or sex with inanimate objects.

I do respect other peoples opinions on this subject, but I think people DO have a choice, and by saying that they DO NOT seems to be working in the wrong direction. A lot of people say "Why should this person reject his natural urge?" Well, whether or not you think homosexuality is wrong, you must agree that people surpress urges ALL THE TIME, and NOT just people with homosexual desires. We surpress rage and hatred so we don't kill someone. We surpress our sexual desires so we don't hurt people we love. We are much more complicated than animals, and these social reasons have an extreme effect.

My problem with people saying homosexuality is natural is that they think that when someone has homosexual urges they are therefore homosexual. They were born that way and that is that. Well, frankly I think that is a horrible thing to say. People have the choice whether or not to surpress an urge they have, sexual or not. I think its very uncool to say that they do not and they are stuck, which is basically what some people here are saying.

well nobody said that being openly homosexual wasn't a choice. what's being argued here is that it seems common sense that the feeling of attraction to a particular person (male or female) is not a choice. like you mentioned, the choice therein lies with that person either acting on the attraction or not.

there is also a problem with your line of argument. people supress the urge to hurt or kill people. fine, i'll buy that. but by extending that analogy to homosexuality you are implying that homosexuality is wrong. personally, i don't particularly care for homosexuals, nor do i think that homosexuality is normal. but i wouldn't go so far as to say that it is wrong. your religion might say that it is wrong, but realize that the rest of the world might not necessarily fall under the moral obligations of what you relgion mandates as right and wrong.