Public Defender Arrested For Intervening Between Police And Her Client

[JEDIYoda]

The police CAN legally question people relevant to an investigation. The police CAN legally photograph people relevant to an investigation if the people are in public.

You can legally refuse to answer!

 

[OBLAMA2009]

You can legally refuse to answer!

man, what is the law when the cops stop u? last week i had my bike leaned up against my car parked on the street at night and some cops stopped and questioned and id'ed me. did i have a right to refuse to talk to them and give them my drivers license? what do u have to say to get them to leave you alone? do you have to ask if they consider you a suspect in a crime?

 

[JEDIYoda]

man, what is the law when the cops stop u? last week i had my bike leaned up against my car parked on the street at night and some cops stopped and questioned and id'ed me. did i have a right to refuse to talk to them and give them my drivers license?

The Police have the same rights as you. We may talk to anyone we want and ask them questions. There is nothing wrong with that. Depending on the circumstances surrounding this encounter you may or may not be required to stop and talk. If you are being detained then you need to cooperate by identifying yourself (you don't have to answer all questions but the sooner you show your identification the sooner you can go on with your day). You can even ask if you are free to leave if you want.

If you're not being detained then you can simply tell the Officer you are in a hurry to get to work and continue on your marry way. Raising voice and being rude is not necessary and will only escalate the situation. Just deal with the situation. You are not entitled by any law or right to not be talked to by a Law Enforcement Officer.

Some states also have laws that require you to provide identification.

The officer needs probable cause to stop and detain you. If he has that and you refuse to identify yourself you can be arrested. You won't necessarily be charged with anything but you will be arrested.

Depending on what state you live in the officer can hold you for as little as two hours or as much as 24 hours without charging you with anything.

I personally have refused many times to show ID even when asked if I have ID...I always say - Yes!! I am not showing you my ID.....but you must be willing to take the consequences...

 

[OBLAMA2009]

The Police have the same rights as you. We may talk to anyone we want and ask them questions. There is nothing wrong with that. Depending on the circumstances surrounding this encounter you may or may not be required to stop and talk. If you are being detained then you need to cooperate by identifying yourself (you don't have to answer all questions but the sooner you show your identification the sooner you can go on with your day). You can even ask if you are free to leave if you want.

If you're not being detained then you can simply tell the Officer you are in a hurry to get to work and continue on your marry way. Raising voice and being rude is not necessary and will only escalate the situation. Just deal with the situation. You are not entitled by any law or right to not be talked to by a Law Enforcement Officer.

Some states also have laws that require you to provide identification.

The officer needs probable cause to stop and detain you. If he has that and you refuse to identify yourself you can be arrested. You won't necessarily be charged with anything but you will be arrested.

Depending on what state you live in the officer can hold you for as little as two hours or as much as 24 hours without charging you with anything.

I personally have refused many times to show ID even when asked if I have ID...I always say - Yes!! I am not showing you my ID.....but you must be willing to take the consequences...

so you have to ask them if youre being "detained" and if they say no you can walk away? what if, they say something like "we suspect you might be breaking into cars" because they see my bike leaned up against my car. does that give them the right to demand my drivers license?

 

[rudeguy]

You're wrong that questioning can happen only if you consent. If you're not being charged with a crime, police can ask you any question they want. They're not required to ask you "Can I ask you questions."

They are not entitled to question you. Courts have ruled over and over on this. However not asserting your rights is viewed as consenting, which is the situation you are thinking of. That is not the case here.

It's up to YOU to tell them, "I don't want to answer any questions." Further, even if you are being charged with a crime, they are required only to give you a Miranda warning and ask you if you understand your rights. At that point, they can (and will) ask you any questions they want and - again - it's up to you to tell them you don't want to answer.

Correct. However your attorney may assert that right for you and should if they are present, which is what happened here.

You previously wrote:

If you had intended to say, "The police are not entitled to . . . question people who have told them they don't want to answer," then you would have been correct. But that's not what you wrote. At best, you're badly in need of a good remedial writing course. But far more likely, you're a troll who's been caught with his pants down and is now trying to pretend that when he said "A" he actually meant "B."

If the police were entitled to question people, people would not be able to refuse questioning. You may want to look up the difference between a consensual stop and a Terry stop. There are very different laws depending on the type of stop (encounter). The lawyer obviously knew the police were trying to treat this like a consensual stop and tried to help her client out.

You're also backtracking on your "taking pictures" statement. Now you're telling us that police cannot FORCE you to pose for pictures. Why don't you explain to use how the statement "The police are not entitled to take pictures" means "The police cannot force you to pose for pictures?"

Idiot.

Again we are looking at the difference between being able to do something and being entitled to do something. I know it seems like splitting hairs but that is how the courts see these. I am able to do a lot of things legally. But I am entitled to do far less things. The police are able to take pictures of you walking down the hall. They are not entitled to do that. If the cop had snapped a picture of the guy while he was standing there, we wouldn't even know about it. But the cop decided he was entitled to do so and arrested the attorney who legally challenged him.

 

[Jeeebus]

I love the armchair lawyers on this forum.

As a real lawyer who happens to be sitting in an armchair...

(1) Cops are free to take someone's picture assuming he is standing around in a public place. Guy whose picture is being taken is free to cover his face, turn around, etc.

(2) Lawyer is within her right to tell cops to get bent and not talk to her client.

(3) Cop was not within his right to arrest lawyer for "resisting arrest." The charge is so absurd I'm not even going to discuss it.

(4) Cop was certainly not within his right to remove the lawyer from the situation and then proceed to interrogate her client. It might come down to whether he was "detained" at the time, but the removal of the lawyer so they can corner the client is going to be met with anger by just about any judge.

 

[Pulsar]

Just another isolated bad apple....Merg and others assure us that the cops are good and don't break the law.

There are 450,000 police in the United States.

Statistics. Do you even?

 

[waggy]

I love the armchair lawyers on this forum.

As a real lawyer who happens to be sitting in an armchair...

(1) Cops are free to take someone's picture assuming he is standing around in a public place. Guy whose picture is being taken is free to cover his face, turn around, etc.

(2) Lawyer is within her right to tell cops to get bent and not talk to her client.

(3) Cop was not within his right to arrest lawyer for "resisting arrest." The charge is so absurd I'm not even going to discuss it.

(4) Cop was certainly not within his right to remove the lawyer from the situation and then proceed to interrogate her client. It might come down to whether he was "detained" at the time, but the removal of the lawyer so they can corner the client is going to be met with anger by just about any judge.

this s what i figured.

sure he has a right to take pictures of him. he is in public. Though i would think he has just as much of a right to turn his head. The cop should not be able to make him pose for the shot.

it seemd to me the cop was making shit up to get the lawyer out of the way so they harass and intimidate the guy. I can't see any judge being ok with that.

I'm interested in seeing how this plays out.

 

[rudeguy]

There are 450,000 police in the United States.

Statistics. Do you even?

The reason the statistics are messed up is the police control who gets to file complaint reports. If there were easy and honest ways to file complaints, there would be a lot, lot, lot more complaints filed. Add in the fact that most complaints get buried or cops not punished for bad behavior and its futile to even try.

Oh and then there is the fact that when you actually try to file a complaint you get badgered and sometimes arrested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABGctKHG340
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kwM7wdVF4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8v7lF5ttlQ

 

[master_shake_]

Oh nice.

So the cop who arrested the lawyer also choked out a black guy who turned out to be a cop?

Golden

so one bad appple who chokes other cops and arrests lawyers for doing their job?

that is one bad apple :awe:

 

[Clemenza]

I love the armchair lawyers on this forum.

As a real lawyer who happens to be sitting in an armchair...

(1) Cops are free to take someone's picture assuming he is standing around in a public place. Guy whose picture is being taken is free to cover his face, turn around, etc.

(2) Lawyer is within her right to tell cops to get bent and not talk to her client.

(3) Cop was not within his right to arrest lawyer for "resisting arrest." The charge is so absurd I'm not even going to discuss it.

(4) Cop was certainly not within his right to remove the lawyer from the situation and then proceed to interrogate her client. It might come down to whether he was "detained" at the time, but the removal of the lawyer so they can corner the client is going to be met with anger by just about any judge.

Thanks man. You saved me some time from having to post this. I've declined in the past to let cops interview my client when we were in court on another matter. I just told my client to leave and ignore them.

I would have done this same thing this PD did.

 

[Pulsar]

The reason the statistics are messed up is the police control who gets to file complaint reports. If there were easy and honest ways to file complaints, there would be a lot, lot, lot more complaints filed. Add in the fact that most complaints get buried or cops not punished for bad behavior and its futile to even try.

Oh and then there is the fact that when you actually try to file a complaint you get badgered and sometimes arrested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABGctKHG340
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kwM7wdVF4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8v7lF5ttlQ

Do you understand the difference between a complaint, and an actual injustice?

It's simple statistics, and the whole 'hate the cops' crowd doesn't seem to be capable of them. I'm not saying that that aren't incidents. But people (yourself included) don't seem to be able to comprehend the volume of things that go on when a police force of 450,000 police work with 320,000,000 people. Even if you assume that every cop who has an incident is bad, and that there's an incident rate of 10 per day, and every one of those is a valid complain and a miscarriage of justice, you're talking about .008% of police.

Statistics. The anti-cop crowd doesn't, and can't.

But it does make good press.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

There are 450,000 police in the United States.

Statistics. Do you even?

Given the number of incidents we see now weekly, plus the number of officers we routinely see that are either actively supporting the abuse, or at worst just ignoring it, yes it's a problem. And that doesn't even count the ones we never hear about, since their is no video.

Plus since no one is even allowed to keep actual statistics about this sort of thing, just like no one tracks the amount of people killed by police, we don't even know the percentage or number of abuse cases. Why not?

Given all these issues, do you really believe that all cops are good? Look at the NYPD? How many of them are actively protesting against the mayor? It's not a small number.

But keep on believing what you want.

 

[fskimospy]

Do you understand the difference between a complaint, and an actual injustice?

It's simple statistics, and the whole 'hate the cops' crowd doesn't seem to be capable of them. I'm not saying that that aren't incidents. But people (yourself included) don't seem to be able to comprehend the volume of things that go on when a police force of 450,000 police work with 320,000,000 people. Even if you assume that every cop who has an incident is bad, and that there's an incident rate of 10 per day, and every one of those is a valid complain and a miscarriage of justice, you're talking about .008% of police.

Statistics. The anti-cop crowd doesn't, and can't.

But it does make good press.

The NYPD CCRB alone received about 5,500 complaints against police last year. Needless to say I imagine that number of complaints represents a small fraction of the total number of incidents that take place in NYC each year.

You have chosen an extremely improbably small number of daily incidents for the nation and then used that to extrapolate your numbers. The actual number of daily incidents is probably orders of magnitude larger than you estimated. Then when you realize it's a yearly figure, suddenly we are talking about a nontrivial amount of cops.

You can't complain about people not using statistics when yours are just based on shit you made up.

 

[PokerGuy]

I love the armchair lawyers on this forum.

As a real lawyer who happens to be sitting in an armchair...

(1) Cops are free to take someone's picture assuming he is standing around in a public place. Guy whose picture is being taken is free to cover his face, turn around, etc.

(2) Lawyer is within her right to tell cops to get bent and not talk to her client.

(3) Cop was not within his right to arrest lawyer for "resisting arrest." The charge is so absurd I'm not even going to discuss it.

(4) Cop was certainly not within his right to remove the lawyer from the situation and then proceed to interrogate her client. It might come down to whether he was "detained" at the time, but the removal of the lawyer so they can corner the client is going to be met with anger by just about any judge.

Always nice to have the opinion of someone who is more familiar with the subject matter.

Regarding #2, whether they were her client or not is a point of contention (apparently). I don't know enough about this, but in CA, if a judge appoints a PD to represent someone in case A, does that automatically mean they also represent that client in an unrelated case B? That's what the cops are saying, that they were investigating an incident unrelated to the case for which the PD was appointed as defense.

Agree with #3, I don't know how you could possibly argue that someone is resisting arrest, when they are not subject to arrest or detention. Other charges, like obstruction or something like that might have a better chance, but resisting arrest seems dumb.

#4, same as #2. If they contend she was not representing the guy in the matter being investigated, then they have every right to ask him whatever questions they want without her present, just as he has every right to tell them to pound sand and not answer anything.

 

[Jeeebus]

Always nice to have the opinion of someone who is more familiar with the subject matter.

Regarding #2, whether they were her client or not is a point of contention (apparently). I don't know enough about this, but in CA, if a judge appoints a PD to represent someone in case A, does that automatically mean they also represent that client in an unrelated case B? That's what the cops are saying, that they were investigating an incident unrelated to the case for which the PD was appointed as defense.

Agree with #3, I don't know how you could possibly argue that someone is resisting arrest, when they are not subject to arrest or detention. Other charges, like obstruction or something like that might have a better chance, but resisting arrest seems dumb.

#4, same as #2. If they contend she was not representing the guy in the matter being investigated, then they have every right to ask him whatever questions they want without her present, just as he has every right to tell them to pound sand and not answer anything.

Who cares what they contend? She identified herself as a lawyer and him as her client. If she was his lawyer, cops should have backed off. If she wasn't, what right do cops have to forcibly remove someone from public space to isolate someone they want to talk to? If they wanted isolation, arrest him and question him at the station (of course then his lawyer would be there so it's much more convenient to just arrest her on a bullshit charge).

 

[mizzou]

man, what is the law when the cops stop u? last week i had my bike leaned up against my car parked on the street at night and some cops stopped and questioned and id'ed me. did i have a right to refuse to talk to them and give them my drivers license? what do u have to say to get them to leave you alone? do you have to ask if they consider you a suspect in a crime?

Comply, then afterwards, ask for a full explanation why you were stopped and ID'd. It is a much more interesting and leveraged conversation you will have with the cop versus you just saying "Am I free to go? Am I being Detained? I will not answer any questions."

Put them on the spot, don't put yourself on the spot.

Unless you have warrants or are on probation....that's when id'ing yourself gets tricky.

 

[rudeguy]

Comply, then afterwards, ask for a full explanation why you were stopped and ID'd. It is a much more interesting and leveraged conversation you will have with the cop versus you just saying "Am I free to go? Am I being Detained? I will not answer any questions."

Put them on the spot, don't put yourself on the spot.

Unless you have warrants or are on probation....that's when id'ing yourself gets tricky.

Exactly what I was talking about.

You're ignorant and scared. Just the way they want you.

 

[mizzou]

Do you understand the difference between a complaint, and an actual injustice?

It's simple statistics, and the whole 'hate the cops' crowd doesn't seem to be capable of them. I'm not saying that that aren't incidents. But people (yourself included) don't seem to be able to comprehend the volume of things that go on when a police force of 450,000 police work with 320,000,000 people. Even if you assume that every cop who has an incident is bad, and that there's an incident rate of 10 per day, and every one of those is a valid complain and a miscarriage of justice, you're talking about .008% of police.

Statistics. The anti-cop crowd doesn't, and can't.

But it does make good press.

Yup. Nobody sees the good videos, because they aren't exciting. We want the outrageous ones or the ones that fulfill an argument. It's easy to do, because of the millions of incidents each day, it's like fishing with grenades to find a few that support an argument. People who watch or have watched COPS the TV show literally think that's what being a police officer is like day to day. Nobody cares or realizes that half their time is spent on paperwork and other menial tasks. Nobody cares that the vast majority of incidents are handled WITHOUT A PROBLEM AT ALL..and if anything, a "Thank you officer."

Just show us the next video where one of the hundreds of thousands of police officers fucks up. That's what we want to see and believe! Police are out of control! OMG look at this video lineup!

 

[mizzou]

Exactly what I was talking about.

You're ignorant and scared. Just the way they want you.

Ignorant and scared? How is it ignorant and scared if I have absolutely nothing to fear? The people who are afraid of IDing themselves are the ignorant and scared ones, because they have an irrational fear of being unlawfully arrested/interrogated, you fucking name it.

Explain to me, how that is in any shape or form, more ignorant then trying to evade a police officer?

If anything, that shows you have absolutely nothing to fear.

 

[rudeguy]

Ignorant and scared? How is it ignorant and scared if I have absolutely nothing to fear? The people who are afraid of IDing themselves are the ignorant and scared ones, because they have an irrational fear of being unlawfully arrested/interrogated, you fucking name it.

Explain to me, how that is in any shape or form, more ignorant then trying to evade a police officer?

If anything, that shows you have absolutely nothing to fear.

Ignorant of your rights and afraid to stand up for them.

You giving advice on this subject is the most laughable thing ever. I wanted to let you know that you have single handedly changed my opinion on people from Missouri. I used to think they were educated and intelligent. Now I believe they are all mouth breathing hillbillies.

 

[mizzou]

Ignorant of your rights and afraid to stand up for them.

You giving advice on this subject is the most laughable thing ever. I wanted to let you know that you have single handedly changed my opinion on people from Missouri. I used to think they were educated and intelligent. Now I believe they are all mouth breathing hillbillies.

I believe that most cops out there, if they ask you who you are, may as well just tell them. How do you know that you aren't wearing the same thing as a bank robber that just occurred? What if you are just in an odd place at an odd time? Wouldn't it make more sense to let them know nothing odd is going on?

 

[Pulsar]

The NYPD CCRB alone received about 5,500 complaints against police last year. Needless to say I imagine that number of complaints represents a small fraction of the total number of incidents that take place in NYC each year.

You have chosen an extremely improbably small number of daily incidents for the nation and then used that to extrapolate your numbers. The actual number of daily incidents is probably orders of magnitude larger than you estimated. Then when you realize it's a yearly figure, suddenly we are talking about a nontrivial amount of cops.

You can't complain about people not using statistics when yours are just based on shit you made up.

Wow. Talk about biasing your view. How many of those 5,500 complaints are REAL? I know cops - and the number of bullshit complaints they get filed against them on a daily basis is unreal. But you're going the way of assuming every complain means something actually happened - when that's clearly not true.

 

[rudeguy]

I believe that most cops out there, if they ask you who you are, may as well just tell them. How do you know that you aren't wearing the same thing as a bank robber that just occurred? What if you are just in an odd place at an odd time? Wouldn't it make more sense to let them know nothing odd is going on?

Exactly what I'm talking about.

I can be wherever I want at whatever time I want to be there. Its not the police's decision. Who I am doesn't concern the police. I don't care if they think something odd is going on. That's their problem.

Tell you what. Next time you see a cop, ask him for his ID. Not his badge, not his name tag, tell him you want to see his driver's license. Let me know how that works out for you.

 

[fskimospy]

Wow. Talk about biasing your view. How many of those 5,500 complaints are REAL? I know cops - and the number of bullshit complaints they get filed against them on a daily basis is unreal. But you're going the way of assuming every complain means something actually happened - when that's clearly not true.

Nowhere did I say that means something actually happened in all of those sit

I'm simply saying that considering the huge volume of REGISTERED complaints for one year in a single city in the US being so high makes your number of 10 per day for the whole country highly unlikely. How many bullshit incidents are there? Probably a lot. How many unreported incidents are there? Probably a lot.

Regardless, if you're going to claim the use of statistics to make a point you can't just make up numbers to do it.