Public and Private education, part II

[Rio Rebel]

PennState,

First off, glad to hear you've read Kozol's book. It's an important message.

However, the message is not that "public schools need more money". It's that there is a huge inequity in the levels of public schools in poorer communities than in wealthier ones. The message is calling for equity funding, not a general increase in education spending.

I agree with much of what tagej said. Ask any public school teacher whether their problem is resources or discipline, and the huge majority will tell you discipline. The private schools are proving every day that disciplined children can be educated on a fraction of the budget.

Is this a "failure" of public schools? Well, I don't think so. It's an inherent benefit of private schools that they have a more free range of discipline...and a stronger incentive for the parents to be involved (since they are paying more).

This is why I am concerned about the voucher concept. You can't simply point to the success of private schools and assume that they can maintain the same level of success if forced to accomodate all children. And I have yet to hear a plan which specified how the private schools would deal with problem students. Would they be allowed to remove them in the same way that they can now? Would they be forced to immediately integrate children from lower economic levels? Most of all - isn't it very possible that private school children now have a homogenous factor which helps define their community...be it religious, economic standing, etc.? If we open the floodgates on these private schools, injecting at-risk students with more complex social problems and breaking up the homogenous culture of the private schools - if we do all this, should we really assume that they can maintain their level of success?

In short, I see no reason to believe that the private schools will be any more successful than public schools at educating the most difficult groups of children. Vouchers may ultimately destroy both systems - the public system because of the migration of children to private schools, and the private because it would likely disrupt the social harmony that exists now in a homogenous group.

 

[Isla]

Very well said, Rio Rebel. I agree. Vouchers are dicey...

My mother was a teacher in the public system, as are several other people I am very close to. Heck, I should be in the trenches with them, but I'm waiting for a later tour of duty.

Every single educator I know, public or private, has expressed concern about vouchers and whether or not they are any kind of a solution. Most have echoed your veiws.

The only thing I know of that can really improve the system is parental involvement.

We shall see, we shall see...

edit: Sheesh, now that I finished reading Public versus Private Part 1, I'm glad I stayed out of that thread! Big Disclaimer here:

It doesn't matter, Public or Private. What matters is the effort you put in towards learning. No one can stop you if you are determined to excell.

 

[BoberFett]

I actually think a Euro style system might be an oft overlooked possibility. If a child is quite obviously not on the college-bound track, why force him to sit through 12 years of textbook learning. Why not start trade schools at around age 12, this might take care of the problem students, ones that have no desire to sit in a classroom and only prevent others from learning.

 

[Rio Rebel]

I don't have enough knowledge of European society to evaluate that. But I do have suspicions that the amount of, for lack of a better term, pure thuggery that goes on in many public schools is unique to this country. Violent behavior is certainly not unique, but I suspect that we're the only ones who allow it to this extent in the name of "freedom and individualism".

 

[The Wildcard]

Yes vouchers are a very touchy subject. Being a product of a public school system in the Bay Area, i was totally against vouchers at first. But when I read articles in Time recently on how several schools in Florida actually improved because they lost so many of their students to privcate schools using voucher money...i was a little hesitant. HOWEVER, when i also read in the same article, the same public school competiting with other schools for children, i changed my mind. In fact, the article said the elementary school actually ran radio ads to attract parents and kids, lol.

And one more thing, the amount of voucher money is imporant. If it's really small, it's really not going to help a poor family afford the education, HOWEVER, if you are rich, it's just an ADDED BONUS.

 

[Futuramatic]

Touchy is a bit conservative... they seem to be quite volatile for a lot of people.

I don't know about vouchers. On one hand, they allow families the choice between private and public schools (assuming that money is a barrier). It reduces class size at public schools, which is a good thing right?

On the other hand... it vacates students from public schools. I do not know if in most areas this reduces the funds to the school or not, but in my area enrollment affects funds available to the school.

If I was putting a child into a school... I would want the best for that kid. Right now, I think private schools are doing a better job. However, I went to a public school (a good one), and I am fine. It all depends on where you live I suppose. Vouchers where I live would not have that big of an impact.

 

[Fathom4]

I'll give you the key to a child education in two words.

"Parental involvement"

If the parents take an interest in their children's education they can get a good education in just about any school.

 

[vi edit]

Anybody know how common "open schools" are in the various states?
I grew up in Illinois, and if you weren't happy with your school, you either paid the $$ to go private, or paid the difference to go to another public school. The difference in other public school tuition could have been anywhere from $500 cheaper, to $500 more expensive; Still no where as expensive as what it costs to go private.

I know that in some states, you can "open enroll" in any school that was within reach of you for no additional fees.

If all states proposed an open enrollment wouldn't the "bad" schools naturally die out due to natural selection?

Anybody have any thoughts on this?