PSU question - high currents and voltage droop

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Special K

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Jun 18, 2000
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I suppose this question could apply to many different power distribution systems - computer PSUs, IC's, your home power system, etc.

Basically my question is this: why does the output voltage of a power supply droop when a high-current load is switched on?

For example, you may have witnessed the lights in your house temporarily dim whenever the AC, furnace, or other large appliance is switched on. I realize that these devices require a very high current to start up, but then a much lower current after that, but why does supplying that current cause the output voltage of the power supply to droop?

I've worked with DC power supplies in the lab and have seen cases where the DC output voltage will drop when the load starts drawing current near the DC power supply's rated max. Why does this occur? Why doesn't it just provide the maximum current it can while maintaining the rated output voltage?

I've also seen the same thing when analyzing IC's - when certain blocks are switched on, the voltage on the power grid temporarily droops.

I'm guessing these are all the same phenomenon, but for some reason I haven't been able to find a satisfactory and/or complete explanation as to why this occurs.

Any information would be appreciated.
 

C1

Platinum Member
Feb 21, 2008
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A component in a circuits need to have or present some type of resistance otherwise current will flow at the maximum possible (as a dead short circuit situation). So at some point trying to draw unlimited current results in the component itself as being the bottleneck.Power supplies employ regulation and filtering. Large surges and/or draining at the capacity of the design typically results in depleting the storage of the filtering capacitors which typically results in reduced voltage output.Circuits employ current limiters as safe guards. In some circuits (such as house wiring), the pure resistance of the line is responsible for the phenomena (eg, when I played my 300 watt stereo amp at high volume the lights on the same circuit would be seen to pulse slightly from the shear current draw of the amp).
 

PsiStar

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Dec 21, 2005
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The short answer is a variation of Ohm's Law. In this case V = (I^2)R, which defines the voltage dropped across any resistance is equal to the current squared times the resistance. This voltage is the reduction that you see measured ... depending on where the voltage is being measured.

Taking a PSU as an example it has an internal resistance ... thus *the* resistance. Additionally there is the resistance of the connecting leads as well as the contact resistances at every juncture. They all add up.

Mostly the same occurs for household AC and is the same for purely resistive loads. Although there can easily be phase & inductive or capacitance loads and a new term called power factor. Check this forum under "Power Supplies". There is a sticky for "power factor". Haven't read it, but usually explanations here are accurate.
 

Special K

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Jun 18, 2000
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The short answer is a variation of Ohm's Law. In this case V = (I^2)R, which defines the voltage dropped across any resistance is equal to the current squared times the resistance. This voltage is the reduction that you see measured ... depending on where the voltage is being measured.

Did you mean V = IR? Power = I^2*R.

Taking a PSU as an example it has an internal resistance ... thus *the* resistance. Additionally there is the resistance of the connecting leads as well as the contact resistances at every juncture. They all add up.

I guess this explanation kind of makes sense. If the current draw is higher, the associated voltage droop will be higher as well. Don't PSU's have feedback to try and prevent this?

Mostly the same occurs for household AC and is the same for purely resistive loads. Although there can easily be phase & inductive or capacitance loads and a new term called power factor. Check this forum under "Power Supplies". There is a sticky for "power factor". Haven't read it, but usually explanations here are accurate.

Yeah I'm familiar with power factor, phasors, etc. That explains why more power needs to be supplied by a source than is delivered to a load, but I'm not sure it explains the voltage droop phenomenon I am referring to.
 
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PsiStar

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Comments in red
I guess this explanation kind of makes sense. If the current draw is higher, the associated voltage droop will be higher as well. Don't PSU's have feedback to try and prevent this? Yes & I would think that even the cheapest PSUs would have this. But cheap is cheap & how tightly controlled is that feedback? And, how good is the power transformer in the PSU? All good ways to separate a $40 PSU from a $200 one.



Yeah I'm familiar with power factor, phasors, etc. That explains why more power needs to be supplied by a source than is delivered to a load, but I'm not sure it explains the voltage droop phenomenon I am referring to. After I wrote that I began having 2nd thoughts about how I stated that. So I thought you might comment on that. Power factor is usually used in a steady state context ... the load is switched on & all the transients have disappeared. What I was thinking about & made no hint at, is that PF varies before that steady state is reached.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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When you design a power supply you design it with the load that it will be used for in the circuit. You have a couple options, you can design for max load possible as the continuous or you can design for average load and peak outputs. The choice is usually one of cost.

The easiest way to explain it is using a very basic power supply.
AC is converted to DC using a full wave bridge rectifier whose output is smoothed by a capacitor. Lets say I want the supply to put out 10A max but I want a continuous usage of 8A .

My choices are:
Bridge1 - 20A continuous , instantaneous surge 8.5A - $1
Bridge2 - 20A continuous, instantaneous surge 12.5A- $3

A manufacturer will choose the 1st one because the cost is lower and the 8.5A is over what they expect the normal load to be. If someone goes above 8.5A the part will not fail it will just take it longer to convert enough power to bring the load up to where it needs to be since it has a 20A max rating.

The other thing is in regulated supplies there is a ton of ways to control what the output current/voltage will be. Again it is all about cost. You can track the output with hi speed , hi cost parts that respond in microseconds or you can go low end and get ones that control it in seconds.

Bench supplies usually specify what the regulation tolerance are. A bench supply that cannot track its output quickly would not be one I would want.



The dimming of lights in a home when an appliance turns on should NOT occur. If it does then the homes wiring or the supply to the home is inadequate. That is why the NEC codes are so strict on wire size and number of outlets per wire. Every wire size has a rated amp capacity before you start losing voltage . In those cases the wire is heating up as it tries to cope with the increased demand. It is similar to the bridge above.
Wire-Gauge-Chart.jpg
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Any wire, power supply, capacitor, etc. has a finite resistance (except superconductors which we'll ignore here). As a result, by Ohm's law, when a current flows through a resistance, a voltage results (which has the effect of appearing as a voltage drop at the end of the wire).

So, if you have a 6V battery, with an internal resistance of 1 Ohm - then if you connect a 5 Ohm resistor to its terminals, 5 V will appear at the terminals of the resistor and 1 Amp will flow. 1 V will appear to have vanished at the battery terminals - in reality, you have created a series circuit with a 1 Ohm and 5 Ohm resistor in series, where the 1 Ohm 'resistor' is actually the carbon electrodes of the battery, and the resistance of the electrolyte solution.

Similarly, wires, PCB traces, etc. all have a finite resistance and will produce similar 'voltage drops' in response to current.

Things are slightly more complex with AC, because you have inductive effects. All wires have inductance, as do alternators and transformers. For brevity I won't expand on this further, but will mention the term 'impedance' as being the combined effect of resistance (which affects DC and AC systems equally) and inductive (or, more strictly, reactive) effects.

So, as an example. My apartment receives 240 V. When I turn on my kettle (which takes 13 A), the lights dim slightly, but perceptibly. I've measured the voltage on the lighting circuit, and the result is that the voltage drops to 238 V. From this, I can work out the impedance of the electrical supply to my apartment, up to the point it reaches the panel (by using Ohm's law: V=IR. I=13, V=2; R = 0.15 Ohms). If, instead, I measure the voltage at the dual receptacle feeding the kettle, the voltage drops to 236 V. I can work out the total impedance as 0.30 Ohms - or in other words, the wiring from my panel to the receptacle has an impedance of 0.15 Ohms. This receptacle is supplied by 4 mm^2 copper cable - which has a resistance of 5 mOhms/meter - and is about 10 meters long (or 20 m round trip). As you can see, the figures are close enough.

Lights are very sensitive to voltage fluctuations, so perceptible dimming is normal when switching large loads. However, the dimming should not be excessive. Hence electrical codes specify the maximum voltage drop that a cable may experience under load - so if you are running long cables, you have to calculate the expected voltage drop and use cables with a higher current rating if necessary. E.g. a 2.5 mm^2 cable is safe for 20 A - but if you run 50 meters, it would have a round trip resistance of 800 mOhms - which would lead to a voltage drop of 16 V at 20 A - which would not be acceptable under most codes - so, if you actually wanted to use 20 A, you would have to use a larger size cable.

Also don't forget that motors tend to take a large current surge - e.g. an AC unit which takes 10 A when running, might take 40 A at startup for a fraction of a second. This can cause brief, but severe, voltage drop and cause visible light flickering.

When it comes to electronic power supplies, things get a bit more complex. Any power supply will have internal resistance (or impedance) - be it in the transformer, electronics, wiring, etc. Many modern electronic PSUs are 'regulated' - they measure the output voltage and adjust power flow to maintain it. Certainly, any PC PSU is regulated.

So why do PC PSUs show a voltage drop? Well, the way the regulation works is that power flow through the supply can be throttled back. The heart of the regulator is the 'error amplifier' this measures the 'error' in output voltage, and this is used to adjust the throttling. E.g. if the error voltage is at target, the throttle may set to 50% power. If error voltage is -0.1V (0.1 V below target), the PSU may throttle up to 75%. At +0.1V, it may throttle back to 25% power, etc. This is designed to compensate for the voltage drops in the PSU electronics. But what it means is that you have some form of voltage drop appearing. Let's say that this PSU is a 12 V, 10 A PSU. At 5 A, the PSU is operating at 50% load, and so the output voltage will be on target. However, let's say you increase demand by adding a 5 Ohm resistor in parallel. The expected current would be 7.4 A, but the PSU is throttled back, so the voltage sags. The error amp sees this and ramps up the power output. Things stabilize when the extra 'boost' ordered by the error amp, exactly matches the extra demand. In this case, the PSU would stabilize at about 75% output at 11.9 V - the error amplifier instructing a 25% boost in power flow in response to a 0.1 V error.

The point here is that there is a ramp up-down of power as error voltage changes. If you simply have a brick wall - voltage below target - 100%, voltage above target - 0% - what will tend to happen is that the voltage fluctuates uncontrollably, but the average is around target. (This is how your central heating furnace might work - it's either on at full power, or its off - it provides an irregular flow of heat, but the average temperature is pretty close to what you set, and because of the thermal inertia of your house, things average out OK).

So, you have to make it a ramp so that the power can be adjusted smoothly. In theory, the steeper your power throttling curve, the better your voltage regulation (you could have you error amp demand 25% boost in response to a 0.001 V error) - but in practice, in gets very impractically difficult to make the regulator produce smooth output the steeper your ramp gets - especially, if you have to cope with wildly fluctuating loads (e.g. CPUs). In fact, on the latest motherboard CPU voltage regulators, the throttling ramp is deliberately flattened (causing a larger than would otherwise be expected voltage drop under load - many people refer to this additional drop as Vdroop). Without this extra 'droop', when the CPU suddenly fires up another core, the sudden change in load can cause uncontrolled deep voltage sags and spikes for a short time (which could cause CPU instability). The added droop provides a stabilizing effect which avoids the wild fluctuations (and ensures that the CPU voltage doesn't drop to unstable levels - but at the cost of allowing CPU voltage to fall slightly below target at high loads).

(The reason for this stabilizing effect is due to delay in the feedback mechanism. The error amp can't detect fluctuations instantly, and the PSU cannot respond to the error amp instantly. The steeper your error amp's ramp, the more problems you run into with instability when load suddenly changes. E.g. if you suddenly double the load, by firing up a 2nd CPU core, you can get a big voltage dip, before the regulator has time to respond. The risk is that if the error amp is too sensitive, it will see the big dip and massively overcompensate, causing a power spike, which in turn causes overcompensation the other way, and a dip...then a spike... then a dip... giving uncontrolled voltage oscillations).

The other issue is that the regulator might only measure the voltage internal to the PSU. You may still get voltage drop on the wires between the PSU and the load. One way of getting around that is to measure the voltage at the load. This is done my CPU regulators on modern motherboards. The CPU actually has dedicated pins connecting direct to the power grids on the die, which are meant to be connected to the VRM's voltage sensor - this allows the VRM to regulate the voltage at the die, fully compensating for the voltage drop in the PCB traces, pins, etc.

Of course, the regulator can only regulate up to the limits of the PSU. If the PSU is throttled to 100%, then adding any further load will result in large voltage drops - because the error amp has no way to command the PSU to increase power further.

Finally, PSUs may provide overload protection. One quite popular way of doing this on bench PSUs is to use a technique called 'foldback' limiting. When the current approaches the maximum limit, the PSU regulator automatically reduces the target voltage to prevent the current from exceeding the maximum limit.
 
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