PSA - SSDs don't like heat.

[VirtualLarry]

Been 92F today outside, been mining in the living room, heat index 104F, lost two DeskMini units.

First one, was running warm, wasn't even using it. Tried pairing a new BT pill speaker that was a recent Newegg ShellShocker, got it paired finally, but couldn't get it to work with Skype.

Rebooted, that was the end, kept blue-screening with SYS_CONFIG_BAD_INFO or something like that.

Tried booting a Win10 USB stick, erasing the partitions on the Plextor M.2 drive, and re-creating them, then formatting them (TRIMming all sectors), but it failed during the format operation.

Then Windows said it couldn't install to that disk.

Arg! Dead M.2.

So I tried the BT speaker on my other working DeskMini unit, running more recent Intel drivers for Wifi and BT, got it paired much better, but Skype still wouldn't use it, and it hung Skype, as well as the Settings app, whenever I tried to select the BT headset as the Mic input.

I rebooted, it rebooted up, then I did Windows Update, that went OK. I rebooted to check if the BIOS needed updating, Internet Flash said I was "up to date", I selected "Save and Exit" in UEFI, and now it won't boot either, nor can I get into UEFI setup anymore by pressing DEL, it just boot-loops, then eventually, says "No Boot device found".

 

[UsandThem]

Does any PC component actually "like" heat?

This is why I never install my SSDs behind the motherboard tray pinned in between a hot area of the motherboard and the side case lined with sound-deadening material. Temps back there are 20c+ higher (at least in my R5).

Dirty power, heat + humidity, and time are the three main enemies of electronics.

 

[ElFenix]

Does any PC component actually "like" heat?

that new carbon nanotube persistent ram stuff?

 

[EXCellR8]

Unless you have really good air conditioning Larry I wouldn't even power up anything for intense workloads. My space gets up to around 95 degrees F midday if the air isn't on and I make sure to let it come down to at least 75F before doing anything too heavy on the machines.

 

[mxnerd]

Wow. Have you turn on air conditioner and lower room temp. to lower than 80 Fahrenheit and retry?

Years ago I was running several HDDs in a server in a room with temp. over 95F for a few days and you know the results.

 

[Campy]

Have you tried the SSDs in another known good system?

 

[VirtualLarry]

I pulled the SATA 2.5" SSD, will try that in another rig in a dock in a bit.

Put another SATA 2.5" PNY CS900 SSD into the one that had the SATA SSD.

Still had the weird issue, where I couldn't get into setup with DEL or F2, screen would just black out, and come back on with the hotkey menu, then go to a black screen, "No boot device found".

But the keyboard has been acting really funky lately, so I think that's actually the problem, somehow.

I was able to hit F11, get to the Boot Menu, after plugging in a Win10 1803 USB stick, and installed Win10 onto the PNY SATA SSD. It loaded the necessary drivers, seems like it's off the the races again, and the main unit / mainboard / wifi isn't damaged that I can see.

Like I said, I'll try the prior SATA SSD in a dock, and see if it's readable.

The other unit, with the Plextor M.2 PCI-E NVMe 128GB drive, I had a M.2 sort-of die from heat, in a mining rig. This may be the same actual drive, so no wonder it's flaky. Pretty sure that the DeskMini unit in this case is also OK. Will pull the SSD, and try a SATA SSD, if I can find my screws and wires bag for the DeskMinis, I need a special SATA wire that comes with them.

 

[cbn]

Very interesting topic. I remember you mentioning a similar issue in the past:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/when-ssds-go-bad.2385855/page-2#post-36421952

I've gotten into the habit of running a HDTune surface scan on my SSDs every month or so.

In my Foxconn AT-5570 NanoPC, I've had several SSDs "die" on me, due to excessive bad sector buildup. (Surface scan looks like a Christmas tree, with all of the red dots covering the green background squares.)

I finally discovered, it's the heat, silly. The NanoPC is passively cooled, and the CPU generates enough heat in the Aluminum enclosure, that the SSD heats up pretty massively. It causes the cells to fail and lose their charge.

Moreso, when the cells are actually worn down, as was the case with the refurb 240GB OCZ Vertex Plus R2 SSD I was using.

It was a major hassle to recover it the two times it died, but I finally moved it into a desktop, where it won't be subject to such heat, and it has been fine for months.

Likewise, an OCZ Agility 30GB drive, that was slightly used, that had been rock-solid, developed a bad sector once placed into the NanoPC.

Basically, the NanoPC eats SSDs. Sadly.

With that noted, I wonder if humidity has something to with it. According to this article it is humidity rather than heat that is major culprit of hard drive failures.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/heat-doesnt-kill-hard-drives-heres-what-does/

High relative humidity causes disk failures largely due to controller/adapter malfunction.

Disk controller/connectivity failures are greatest during high relative humidity.

High temperatures are not harmless, but are much less significant than other factors.

 

[ao_ika_red]

Does that mean I can't use any ssd? Because I live in a place with 90°F and 60% humidity all year long.

 

[UsandThem]

Does that mean I can't use any ssd? Because I live in a place with 90°F and 60% humidity all year long.

You can use them, but they might have a shortened life compared to more temperate regions. But that would apply to other components as well, so that's just the price you pay for never having to deal with snow.

 

[kschendel]

Does that mean I can't use any ssd? Because I live in a place with 90°F and 60% humidity all year long.

Proper airflow across the SSD, and heatsinking it if possible, will make a significant difference.

 

[ao_ika_red]

You can use them, but they might have a shortened life compared to more temperate regions. But that would apply to other components as well, so that's just the price you pay for never having to deal with snow.

My WD Green SSD is still going strong after one year. Fingers crossed it will live on for years to come.

Proper airflow across the SSD, and heatsinking it if possible, will make a significant difference.

I stick it just behind inlet fan. Its operating temp is around 38-42°C, depends on how angry the sun in that day.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Wow I kinda knew this but I figured it just increased odds of corruption, and not actually killed it for good. My mining rig SSD sits right on the PSU, maybe that's not a good idea. lol



We don't get anywhere near those extreme temps here though. I think the hottest I've seen my server room hit is around 26C (78F) at the ceiling. (where sensor is).

 

[UsandThem]

Wow I kinda knew this but I figured it just increased odds of corruption, and not actually killed it for good. My mining rig SSD sits right on the PSU, maybe that's not a good idea. lol

There are quite a few cases that mount the SSDs / HDD on the PSU shroud above the PSU, so as long as your fan is running in the PSU, it likely wouldn't have that much heat built up in it (especially if it's a gold unit or higher). Generally, the higher the efficiency the cooler the PSU runs (better component quality inside).

 

[aigomorla]

wait...

On a M.2 its very stingy about temps.
The M.2 memory controller, does not like heat.
This is why when they overheat, the speed will drop.
Those like to be run fairly cool.

However the NAND like to run better when its a little hot.
This is why i heard those M.2 NVme sinks are like a double edge sword.

Does any PC component actually "like" heat?

the heat pipes and heat sinks!
lol... but seriously, i heard NAND likes it being a bit hot.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/11/nand-flash-gets-baked-lives-longer/

 

[killster1]

I wonder if it had anything to do with the brand of the drive at all. i know you like to use the cheapest models always and wonder if a higher quality SSD would have done the same. I have a samsung 840 pro thats been chugging along at very high temps for many years, but a pro model might fare better?

 

[VirtualLarry]

I wonder if it had anything to do with the brand of the drive at all. i know you like to use the cheapest models always

Plextor SSDs are considered "cheap" these days?

 

[cbn]

Put another SATA 2.5" PNY CS900 SSD into the one that had the SATA SSD.

How do you like the performance of the PNY CS900? Or is this the first time you have used it and thus do not have enough experience with it?

 

[whm1974]

Larry, maybe you need to quit mining altogether since all that does is add heat to your apartment and shortens the lifespan of your equipment.

 

[VirtualLarry]

At this point, I'm close to stopping. At least, I should probably stop on my desktop PCs when it gets to 90F+ outside.

Anyways, I took a look at the DeskMini with the Plextor SSD. Back to room temp, and moved to the other DeskMini "site" (my other desk), and doing some testing.

It booted OK, to BIOS, then when I tried to boot Windows 10, I remembered, I had blown away the partition table, and tried to re-format (TRIM) the data partition.

So, I booted a Win10 1803 USB, and this time, it allowed me to delete, re-create, format, delete, and re-create the partitions (now TRIMmed), and then install Win10.

It went kind of uneventfully, except for the part after account creation, listed as "Network" on the top section, it just kind of sat there, looping message for 5+ minutes, until I unplugged the ethernet cable, then went on.

After installation (it was successful), I used the built-in AC wifi to connect to my LAN, and then later on, I tried shutting down, plugging in the ethernet, and rebooting, and it at least detected my router.

So, it seems OK now? Now that I've let it cool off?

Weirdness.

Edit: Oh, btw, the DeskMini units weren't mining, they were "idle", so I don't know why or how they got so warm. Maybe Microsoft uses idle PCs for who-knows-what after they've been idle for a few hours? It really seemed like my PCs were getting quite a workout, given their temps of 71C.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

At this point, I'm close to stopping. At least, I should probably stop on my desktop PCs when it gets to 90F+ outside.

Yes. There's a reason data centers spend as much on HVAC and electrical for cooling as they do on hardware and the juice to run it.

*snip*
So, it seems OK now? Now that I've let it cool off?

Weirdness.

Nah, that's usually what happens. As long as you didn't do any permanent damage, anyway. (Most systems will shut off and prevent you from doing that.)

Edit: Oh, btw, the DeskMini units weren't mining, they were "idle", so I don't know why or how they got so warm. Maybe Microsoft uses idle PCs for who-knows-what after they've been idle for a few hours? It really seemed like my PCs were getting quite a workout, given their temps of 71C.

Well , Windows does some background stuff (downloading updates, malware scans) but nothing nuts.

They got warm because ambient temps were high. I thought you knew: hardware doesn't run at a set temp at a given loads, it runs at a given delta above ambient temperature. Drop the room temp from 95 to 68 and your idle CPU temp will drop close to 27F too.

 

[mxnerd]

If you don't have AC to cool the PC, at least use a 10" portable desktop fan.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well , Windows does some background stuff (downloading updates, malware scans) but nothing nuts.

They got warm because ambient temps were high. I thought you knew: hardware doesn't run at a set temp at a given loads, it runs at a given delta above ambient temperature. Drop the room temp from 95 to 68 and your idle CPU temp will drop close to 27F too.

I don't know if I buy that. Normal idle temp for an Intel CPU is around 32-35C, in Windows, with Balanced power plan, at "idle". Temp in UEFI (aka BIOS "load" temp - no power-saving going on), is around 51C (ok, on a cooler day, like 65F out.) The temps of the CPU during the hot day were like 71-72C!

It just seems a bit, suspicious. And Windows 10, YES, does more than just "background stuff". Microsoft is doing a little bit of "cloud computing" on client systems, you can basically be sure of that. Leave your monitor set to never sleep, and then don't touch the mouse and keyboard. After so long, CPU will just SLAM to 100%, on all cores. Not doing Windows Update, either.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I really like my DeskMini H110/W units. But I think that maybe, it's time to put them out to pasture, and find them a new home.

As a replacement, I would like to see an AM4 solution, with a 200GE, or maybe even a 2200G if thermals and power permit, in a similar form-factor / size as a DeskMini.

There was a quad-DP output passively-cooled box, that someone posted recently, like almost 900UKP, and then there was a KickStarter project, around $400 or so for the barebones box, also designed as an arduino-compatible project box (looked pretty neat, overall, but more than I need.)

The overall DeskMini H110/W concept is great, but there are a few downsides.
1) Needing an active DP-to-HDMI2.0 adapter, to get it to work at 60Hz with my 4K UHD TV. (extra $30-35 for a Club3D brand)
2) The wifi / BT antennas. They include lock-washers, and slim nuts, but... they always seem to loosen, and never want to get fully tight.
3) Overall lack of available USB ports. There's a USB2.0, a USB3.0 on back stacked up, and then there's a USB3.0, and a USB3.0 type-C side-by-side in front, next to the headphone jack. There is a punch-out, on the top side in front, for an optional USB2.0 dual-port cable assembly, which I've purchased two of, but can't seem to find...
4) I've had stability problems, with (some of) the rigs rebooting on me. That said, there have been recent UEFI releases, making them more compatible with the controller that I was using with the specific M.2 PCI-E NVMe SSD that I was having trouble with. (It's the same controller on the Intel SSD 600p series, which is noted by name in one of the recent UEFI updates.) Also, "stability update" UEFI patches. So, maybe they're stable now, who knows.

There's a Gigabyte Brix unit, with an 8250U, which is a 4C/8T Coffee Lake 8th-gen (but still a 'U' CPU), for $460 or so. That's without RAM or SSD included.

It has wifi with internal antennas, so no "antenna lop-ears", and the HDMI port is 2.0 / 4K60 UHD ready, and probably a few more USB 3.0 ports than the DeskMini.

It's pricier, though, and not as fast, sort of, since it uses a 'U' CPU. (But I suspect an 8250U is going to be powerful enough for most non-gaming tasks.)

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I don't know if I buy that. Normal idle temp for an Intel CPU is around 32-35C, in Windows, with Balanced power plan, at "idle". Temp in UEFI (aka BIOS "load" temp - no power-saving going on), is around 51C (ok, on a cooler day, like 65F out.) The temps of the CPU during the hot day were like 71-72C!

So that's a 20C difference in CPU temp when the ambient temperature went up 30F. It's not perfect but it's pretty close.

It just seems a bit, suspicious. And Windows 10, YES, does more than just "background stuff". Microsoft is doing a little bit of "cloud computing" on client systems, you can basically be sure of that. Leave your monitor set to never sleep, and then don't touch the mouse and keyboard. After so long, CPU will just SLAM to 100%, on all cores. Not doing Windows Update, either.

Not mine. *shrug*

I see behavior like that after a startup, when it's firing up Defender and rescanning stuff. And sometimes Crashplan gets stupid and eats my CPU alive. Otherwise, no.

 

[aigomorla]

Plextor SSDs are considered "cheap" these days?

no they are not.... I would rank them maybe a tad bit lower then crucial, which is lower then samsung, yet higher then mydigitalssd and PNY.

Maybe ranked closer to kingston on equal grounds.