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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
18,664
1,645
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Basically you could no longer sue Chase but have to go through arbitration instead if there is a large dispute between you and Chase. Course of action depends on how likely you think it is that you'll have to go that route. For me the rewards options far outweigh my view of the risk so I'll keep using my Chase cards.

Welcome back btw
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,000
614
126
Can someone translate?
Arbitration is more expensive and you can't participate in a class action of you're bound by an arbitration clause.

Big companies have lots of money (so upfront arbitration costs are much easier for them than on you) and they don't like class actions.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Arbitration is more expensive and you can't participate in a class action of you're bound by an arbitration clause.

Big companies have lots of money (so upfront arbitration costs are much easier for them than on you) and they don't like class actions.
And, naturally, arbitration (as much as they are told to be unbias) are naturally bias in favor of the party that is paying them for their services.
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,000
614
126
And, naturally, arbitration (as much as they are told to be unbias) are naturally bias in favor of the party that is paying them for their services.
That's not necessarily true. Both sides to a dispute are usually responsible for equal payment of the arbitrators' fees in advance of the proceeding getting started. Therein lies the problem. With a lawsuit, you're usually paying as you go (to your lawyer) or going pro se without incurring legal fees. You're not paying the judge to be there.

In arbitration, you're paying your lawyer (if you have 1) AND the arbitrators, but they usually get paid in advance by estimating how many hours they will put in. I have had clients subject to straightforward arbitration where the arbitrators demanded $50k upfront. Client can't afford it and they lose.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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That's not necessarily true. Both sides to a dispute are usually responsible for equal payment of the arbitrators' fees in advance of the proceeding getting started. Therein lies the problem. With a lawsuit, you're usually paying as you go (to your lawyer) or going pro se without incurring legal fees. You're not paying the judge to be there.

In arbitration, you're paying your lawyer (if you have 1) AND the arbitrators, but they usually get paid in advance by estimating how many hours they will put in. I have had clients subject to straightforward arbitration where the arbitrators demanded $50k upfront. Client can't afford it and they lose.
Hasnt there been some overall statistics that show arbitration statistically results in the company win-streak being far better under arbitration vs. public court?


EDIT: This is what I mean:
https://www.epi.org/publication/the-arbitration-epidemic/

1564583250363.png
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,000
614
126
Hasnt there been some overall statistics that show arbitration statistically results in the company win-streak being far better under arbitration vs. public court?


EDIT: This is what I mean:
https://www.epi.org/publication/the-arbitration-epidemic/

View attachment 9022
I have no doubt and if I represented an individual in a lawsuit with a major corporation, I would NEVER recommend arbitration. The potential for bias and/or optics would always leave a sour taste in my mouth. Arbitrators are human. They want more work in the future. Chances are Mr. Joe Shmoe isn't going to use this panel again. Chase, Exxon, Walmart, etc., however, might just have another 100,000 cases and might like arbitrators that side with them.

I'm not even saying the bias exists. But the thought would always be in the back of my mind.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
17,535
1,479
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Hasnt there been some overall statistics that show arbitration statistically results in the company win-streak being far better under arbitration vs. public court?


EDIT: This is what I mean:
https://www.epi.org/publication/the-arbitration-epidemic/

View attachment 9022
I’ve read the same.

I’m ok with this new clause. I rather not risk the closure of my accounts by opting out. I know people say Chase hasn’t closed any accounts for people opting out but it doesn’t mean they won’t or can’t in the future. I receive too much value from my Chase Sapphire Reserve card to risk it. I’m in Aruba at the moment and my family flew here for free using Chase points. I used the free airport lounge in Atlanta and used the free rental car insurance. I will be using the free airport lounge in Aruba when I leave. Plus no foreign transaction fee and 3x points for dining on the island. It’s perfect card for me.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,386
15,594
136
Basically you could no longer sue Chase but have to go through arbitration instead if there is a large dispute between you and Chase. Course of action depends on how likely you think it is that you'll have to go that route. For me the rewards options far outweigh my view of the risk so I'll keep using my Chase cards.

Welcome back btw
Yeah, I kept meaning to turn in that waiver but I forgot too...probably too late?

The letter they sent me suggested that I can just sign a waiver to be excluded from forced arbitration, but it wouldn't cost me my card or any benefits, right? ....if not, that sounds downright illegal, no?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,386
15,594
136
I have no doubt and if I represented an individual in a lawsuit with a major corporation, I would NEVER recommend arbitration. The potential for bias and/or optics would always leave a sour taste in my mouth. Arbitrators are human. They want more work in the future. Chances are Mr. Joe Shmoe isn't going to use this panel again. Chase, Exxon, Walmart, etc., however, might just have another 100,000 cases and might like arbitrators that side with them.

I'm not even saying the bias exists. But the thought would always be in the back of my mind.
From what I understand, the arbitrators in these cases always work for the corp (internally or are contracted directly through them), and they basically decide the case on their own and hand their recommendations to a judge, right? It's completely corrupt.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,386
15,594
136
I’ve read the same.

I’m ok with this new clause. I rather not risk the closure of my accounts by opting out. I know people say Chase hasn’t closed any accounts for people opting out but it doesn’t mean they won’t or can’t in the future. I receive too much value from my Chase Sapphire Reserve card to risk it. I’m in Aruba at the moment and my family flew here for free using Chase points. I used the free airport lounge in Atlanta and used the free rental car insurance. I will be using the free airport lounge in Aruba when I leave. Plus no foreign transaction fee and 3x points for dining on the island. It’s perfect card for me.
holy shit! was wondering where you've been--I feared a tragic BBQing accident! D:
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,000
614
126
From what I understand, the arbitrators in these cases always work for the corp (internally or are contracted directly through them), and they basically decide the case on their own and hand their recommendations to a judge, right? It's completely corrupt.
that's not how it works at all.
 

manly

Diamond Member
Jan 25, 2000
8,201
126
106

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
17,535
1,479
126
holy shit! was wondering where you've been--I feared a tragic BBQing accident! D:
I was pretty busy with work because my business partner was in near fatal accident. I didn't BBQ much this summer since I was home alone. My wife and daughter spent the summer vacationing and touring Korea, Japan, Thailand, and Vietnam. But I did pick up new pellet smoker which I love.
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,000
614
126
you mean the radio lied to me?! :(
To somewhat elaborate, there are dozens of organizations dedicated to arbitration (most popular being the American Arbitration Association) that have their own sets of rules (for example: https://www.adr.org/Rules ) in addition to purely private arbitrators. Sticking with the major organizations, the way it usually works is: (a) one party files a petition to initiate arbitration; (b) if there will be 3 arbitrators, usually each party picks an arbitrator and the 2 arbitrators pick the 3rd' (c) if it's 1 arbitrator, then the parties usually agree/pick from a list of people - if they can't agree, the organization randomly picks someone; (d) the arbitration (basically a more informal trial) occurs and the arbitrator(s) render their decision which is binding; (e) the party who won will initiate a court proceeding to record the judgment formally - the other party can challenge it but only on limited grounds like some crazy procedural irregularity/bias (the arbitrator was the other side's cousin or something akin to that) - otherwise, it's basically a rubber stamp.
 
Dec 10, 2005
20,290
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Yeah, I kept meaning to turn in that waiver but I forgot too...probably too late?

The letter they sent me suggested that I can just sign a waiver to be excluded from forced arbitration, but it wouldn't cost me my card or any benefits, right? ....if not, that sounds downright illegal, no?
I opted out on my Amazon Visa. Got a letter back noting my opt out, account still open and just fine.

Did the same thing when I recently opened a new Amex card.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,386
15,594
136
To somewhat elaborate, there are dozens of organizations dedicated to arbitration (most popular being the American Arbitration Association) that have their own sets of rules (for example: https://www.adr.org/Rules ) in addition to purely private arbitrators. Sticking with the major organizations, the way it usually works is: (a) one party files a petition to initiate arbitration; (b) if there will be 3 arbitrators, usually each party picks an arbitrator and the 2 arbitrators pick the 3rd' (c) if it's 1 arbitrator, then the parties usually agree/pick from a list of people - if they can't agree, the organization randomly picks someone; (d) the arbitration (basically a more informal trial) occurs and the arbitrator(s) render their decision which is binding; (e) the party who won will initiate a court proceeding to record the judgment formally - the other party can challenge it but only on limited grounds like some crazy procedural irregularity/bias (the arbitrator was the other side's cousin or something akin to that) - otherwise, it's basically a rubber stamp.
so...it's kinda like what I said because there is nothing preventing major corps from keeping at least a handful of arbitration associations on contract, and specific teams within those, to represent their own needs?
 

purbeast0

Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
49,418
2,376
126
So what are the best cards to earn CUR points with right now as far as bonuses go? I could use a new card to get some bonuses with right now.
 

rcpratt

Lifer
Jul 2, 2009
10,427
105
116
So what are the best cards to earn CUR points with right now as far as bonuses go? I could use a new card to get some bonuses with right now.
The Ink Preferred has the highest overall bonus at 80,000. All three Ink cards have good bonuses though.

Let me know if you go that route, I’ll shoot you a referral :cool:
 

purbeast0

Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
49,418
2,376
126
The Ink Preferred has the highest overall bonus at 80,000. All three Ink cards have good bonuses though.

Let me know if you go that route, I’ll shoot you a referral :cool:
I already have that one lol. Maybe I'll get it for my wife though.
 

rcpratt

Lifer
Jul 2, 2009
10,427
105
116
Finally took the plunge on the Amex Delta Platinum today. Had the Gold, but the annual companion pass is easily worth the $195/yr fee. 50,000 mile and $500 statement credit is a great intro bonus.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
18,664
1,645
126
I already have that one lol. Maybe I'll get it for my wife though.
Then any of their other business cards. Maybe the Ink cash since that one should offer the $500 back in UR if you have another business UR card
 

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