PSA: Race and Crime

[Brigandier]

Lately there has been an epidemic of threads in P&N about numerous crimes, and the overriding detail of interest is race. You will see Man (Beaten, robbed, shot and killed) by(a) **insert race here**. Little, if any discussion goes to any other factors. This seems a great disservice to me, as the overriding factor in any crime is economic status, not race.

Urban Poverty and Juvenile Crime

Furthermore, titles and reporting that highlight race frame the entire debate in racist terms. Even those that use logic and reason and duped into a racist debate. The argument isn't, lower class people, it's “black/hispanic/white” people, and comments tend to lead down that path. Pretty soon, even the most logical and reasonable people are saying things like “blacks are this” and “whites are this.” You're not racist if you make those arguments but it's dancing so close to the line that it should make you nervous.

 

[soulcougher73]

Its called statistics and profiling. All you have to do is follow the numbers. There is a reason the FBI etc uses it.

You want to change the profile, you change the statistics.

 

[werepossum]

Its called statistics and profiling. All you have to do is follow the numbers. There is a reason the FBI etc uses it.

You want to change the profile, you change the statistics.

I think his point is that the data do not always tell us what we think they tell us. If hypothetically 50% of theft is from green people and 30% of green people are starving, taking away that green people are lawless thieves rather misses the point even if the math is unassailable.

Math is a wonderful way to model reality, but as math isn't reality, one must always remember to make sure that the math used is an accurate reflection of reality rather than just an internally consistent subset of reality.

 

[cyclohexane]

Its called statistics and profiling. All you have to do is follow the numbers. There is a reason the FBI etc uses it.

You want to change the profile, you change the statistics.

Funny. Where are the statistics for white-collar crime? Where bankers are destroying the middle class. I'd bet those criminals are >90% white. Why aren't anyone profiling them?

 

[SheHateMe]

Funny. Where are the statistics for white-collar crime? Where bankers are destroying the middle class. I'd bet those criminals are >90% white. Why aren't anyone profiling them?

Because when a white person commits a crime, it is not representative of their race.

When a black person commits a crime, its representative of black people, black "culture", hip hop, and rap.

 

[soulcougher73]

Funny. Where are the statistics for white-collar crime? Where bankers are destroying the middle class. I'd bet those criminals are >90% white. Why aren't anyone profiling them?

You just did? And yes they can be profiled as well. Anything can be profiled with statistics.

 

[soulcougher73]

I think his point is that the data do not always tell us what we think they tell us. If hypothetically 50% of theft is from green people and 30% of green people are starving, taking away that green people are lawless thieves rather misses the point even if the math is unassailable.

Math is a wonderful way to model reality, but as math isn't reality, one must always remember to make sure that the math used is an accurate reflection of reality rather than just an internally consistent subset of reality.

Statistics could cover all that as well. Do you guys not understand statistics or something?

 

[schneiderguy]

The poverty rate for the black population is roughly about twice the white population, yet blacks commit more total murders than whites, despite only being 1/6th as numerous.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

 

[JockoJohnson]

Funny. Where are the statistics for white-collar crime? Where bankers are destroying the middle class. I'd bet those criminals are >90% white. Why aren't anyone profiling them?

I would be very happy if the media started reporting more on the white-collar crime. However, I think the same people that want to hide those stats are also involved in running the media or have influence with the media. So we don't get to see much of the stats unless we dig for it ourselves...and I am too lazy to do that.

 

[nehalem256]

Funny. Where are the statistics for white-collar crime? Where bankers are destroying the middle class.

You appear to be confusing what is and is not a crime.

I'd bet those criminals are >90% white. Why aren't anyone profiling them?

Sounds like they are profiling them. Or are you suggesting that the SEC spends an equal amount of time investigating black people for "white-collar" crimes?

 

[nehalem256]

Because when a white person commits a crime, it is not representative of their race.

When a black person commits a crime, its representative of black people, black "culture", hip hop, and rap.

You mean like when a black teen gets shot while beating a guy up Obama makes a speech about how "30 years ago that could have been me"...

If you don't want a black person committing a crime to be representative of black people, then maybe black leaders shouldn't make speeches saying that any black person can be a criminal?

EDIT: Basically if black people don't want to be associated with crime maybe they should stop embracing criminals?

 

[Attic]

The problems facing certain areas and age groups ought to be looked at through socio economic factors, not race. Stop basing the funding, standards, and quotas on race.

Poverty drives broken families and crime. Some are now saying focus on the family, I think that is like asking someone to climb to the 4th rung of a ladder when the first three are broken.

Do broken families drive everything or is it poverty that is the biggest factor and that in fact leads to broken families?

 

[nehalem256]

Poverty drives broken families and crime. Some are now saying focus on the family, I think that is like asking someone to climb to the 4th rung of a ladder when the first three are broken.

Do broken families drive everything or is it poverty that is the biggest factor and that in fact leads to broken families?

There were significantly fewer broken families in the US in the past as well as fewer broken families in 3rd world countries.

You do the math.

 

[werepossum]

Statistics could cover all that as well. Do you guys not understand statistics or something?

I agree that statistics COULD cover that. I'm just saying that statistics as a form of mathematics is often misused. If you look at black crime rates and conclude that black skin causes criminal behavior, you are misusing statistics. The truth is more complicated than that, and simplifying it to that level simply pisses off blacks who aren't criminals while giving us no useful information or understanding. If for instance I do an analysis of the percentage of people carrying umbrellas correlated with weather and conclude that umbrellas cause rain, my conclusion is just wrong. That is not a problem with statistics per se, it's a problem with my use of statistics.

Thus Brigandier's thread. There is no alternative either morally or practically to get rid of black people. There is a strong incentive both morally and practically to make the nation a less violent place. Given these two undeniable truths, we have an obligation to understand the problem because we cannot simply make it go away, and if we simplify the problem to the point of being wrong, then any possible solution will be ineffectual at best and destructive at worst.

 

[Svnla]

I will put it here = http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324324404579041400339948832.html

In a speech Wednesday commemorating the march, President Barack Obama lamented such violence. "The shadow of poverty casts a pall over our youth, their lives a fortress of substandard schools and diminished prospects, inadequate health care and perennial violence," he said.

He alluded to the role black communities must play in addressing the problem. "If we're honest with ourselves, we'll admit that during the course of 50 years, there were times when some of us, claiming to push for change, lost our way," he said. "The anguish of assassinations set off self-defeating riots. Legitimate grievances against police brutality tipped into excuse-making for criminal behavior."

Speaking of poverty and crime. I was in several developing countries around the world and their poors were making about $1 to $2 USD per day. Why would their crime rates are much lower than the US if they are much poorer than US poors? <scratching head>

 

[Attic]

I agree that statistics COULD cover that. I'm just saying that statistics as a form of mathematics is often misused. If you look at black crime rates and conclude that black skin causes criminal behavior, you are misusing statistics. The truth is more complicated than that, and simplifying it to that level simply pisses off blacks who aren't criminals while giving us no useful information or understanding. If for instance I do an analysis of the percentage of people carrying umbrellas correlated with weather and conclude that umbrellas cause rain, my conclusion is just wrong. That is not a problem with statistics per se, it's a problem with my use of statistics.

Thus Brigandier's thread. There is no alternative either morally or practically to get rid of black people. There is a strong incentive both morally and practically to make the nation a less violent place. Given these two undeniable truths, we have an obligation to understand the problem because we cannot simply make it go away, and if we simplify the problem to the point of being wrong, then any possible solution will be ineffectual at best and destructive at worst.

Great thoughts on this post.


It's a horrible catch 22 IMO, politics oversimplifies and deceives on issues because it is the easiest way to gain votes/support. The result, naturally, is poor policy/rhetoric based on the axiom of the underlined in your post.

The solution seems clear. Better politicians/leaders, but given they cater to the vote it can be concluded the responsibility comes back to the individual.

This is generally why I believe centralization of power and control is a terrible thing, where empowering individuals is a great thing. The struggle to achieve the right balance here has the very real affect of creating pain and suffering in areas it need not be.

 

[Spungo]

Funny. Where are the statistics for white-collar crime? Where bankers are destroying the middle class. I'd bet those criminals are >90% white. Why aren't anyone profiling them?

Because it doesn't matter. A banker could kill someone in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses and still walk free. You can profile them all you want but they'll still walk away with no charges. Targeting people who look like Eminem makes sense because it's actually possible to put them in jail.

 

[Attic]

Because it doesn't matter. A banker could kill someone in broad daylight with hundreds of witnesses and still walk free. You can profile them all you want but they'll still walk away with no charges. Targeting people who look like Eminem makes sense because it's actually possible to put them in jail.

Of course that's extreme.

If (as they are) laws are selectively applied, consequences are negotiable, and thus rendered moot as a positive moral force.

Our justice system has succeeding in being sold out to highest bidders which creates immense moral hazards.

 

[Spungo]

Our justice system has succeeding in being sold out to highest bidders which creates immense moral hazards.

Or you could take the libertarian position. The current system motivates you to succeed! If you want to kill someone, don't start by buying a gun. Get a second job, start a business, become a self made millionaire, murder that person, then hire the best lawyer and get away with it.

(as Chris Rock points out, he got away with it because he's rich)

Other examples:
EVERY CELEBRITY EVER.
How many times did police catch someone like Lindsay Lohan with cocaine and do nothing about it? They get something like probation. Trailer Park Charlie would get 20 years.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

<snip>


Furthermore, titles and reporting that highlight race frame the entire debate in racist terms.

<snip>

I VERY much agree with this. Titles and OP should never plainly spell out race unless it's somehow directly relevant. And that goes for both perceived 'sides'...

 

[nehalem256]

Or you could take the libertarian position. The current system motivates you to succeed! If you want to kill someone, don't start by buying a gun. Get a second job, start a business, become a self made millionaire, murder that person, then hire the best lawyer and get away with it.

(as Chris Rock points out, he got away with it because he's rich)

Other examples:
EVERY CELEBRITY EVER.
How many times did police catch someone like Lindsay Lohan with cocaine and do nothing about it? They get something like probation. Trailer Park Charlie would get 20 years.

I thought he got away with it because he was black and the jury thought a conviction would cause riots?

 

[moonbogg]

Add up all murders and crimes of all time and see what race committed the most. You won't do that, but if you did you might wonder why a pattern fails to emerge. Its because there ISN'T ONE!

 

[Paul98]

You need to analyze the statistics, and where they come from and adjust for bias. This is where most at least around here fail, they see the basic numbers and come to incorrect conclusions.

It's especially bad when the incorrect conclusions lead to we conclusions because they are now targeting one group. They then have even more skewed stats.

 

[moonbogg]

You need to analyze the statistics, and where they come from and adjust for bias. This is where most at least around here fail, they see the basic numbers and come to incorrect conclusions.

It's especially bad when the incorrect conclusions lead to we conclusions because they are now targeting one group. They then have even more skewed stats.

People who think race plays a fundamental role in crime can't see past their noses.

 

[woolfe9998]

People who think race plays a fundamental role in crime can't see past their noses.

Well first of all, I seriously doubt "race" per se is a factor in it at all, if by race we are referring to genetics. Culture might play a role. There is also socio-economic conditions which are inextricably linked to culture. There is also a history which is formative of the culture in question.