PSA: CHL Holders BEWARE: Man pulled over, harassed for having permit but no gun!

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SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
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I thought this was an interesting recent development. Since so many of you are passionate about the right to carry concealed firearms. This is what happens when your states share this information with other states, or you get dumped in a federal database. You become a rolling target in states that do not permit concealed carry.

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/01...r-harassed-for-having-permit-but-no-gun-94513

Those who support the Second Amendment rights often get harassed — even when they’re not exercising those rights. It happened to a Tampa-area businessman recently, and it wasn’t pretty.

You already posted this same thread in P&N.
admin allisolm
 
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z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
Sue for harrassment. The wife shouldn't have said the gun could be "anywhere" though. The correct answer is always, "I respectfully wish to deline answering your question sir".

Dont' give those shitbags an excuse to search your vehicle.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
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Sue for harrassment. The wife shouldn't have said the gun could be "anywhere" though. The correct answer is always, "I respectfully wish to deline answering your question sir".

Dont' give those shitbags an excuse to search your vehicle.

The problem is the guy and his wife gave the police probably cause. The guy said he didn't have a gun, the wife said it could be in the car. Lying to the police about being armed is a big deal (at least in my state).

The proper answer is the same as always, "Officer I fully intend to cooperate with your investigation, however I wish to remain silent until my lawyer is present. No I don't give you permission to search me or my vehicle. Can I be on my way now?"
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
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Making sure we all understand that Not All States Have Reciprocity Agreements With Each Other, and It Is The Firearm Owner's Responsibility To Check Prior To Traveling.

On checking, I do not see where Maryland honors Florida permits. Or any other states' either.

Http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/maryland.aspx

We now return the forum to it's normal outrage.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,934
6,309
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Making sure we all understand that Not All States Have Reciprocity Agreements With Each Other, and It Is The Firearm Owner's Responsibility To Check Prior To Traveling.

On checking, I do not see where Maryland honors Florida permits. Or any other states' either.

Http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/maryland.aspx

We now return the forum to it's normal outrage.
This but was he pulled because he was a registered gun owner? If so, that's why we don't want to be in a database and he should sue.

Granted with the NRA and Gadsden stickers on my truck, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess I'm carrying.
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
Right. The wife didn't really handle it properly. However, what was the reason given for being pulled over in the first place? You have to commit some type of crime, even if it's extremely minor (sticker on the window or something).

It's just disheartening to know the police have a giant database of all gun owners on it and that all they need to do to find out your info is run your plate and are then free to harass you while facing no consequences.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
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The problem is the guy and his wife gave the police probably cause. The guy said he didn't have a gun, the wife said it could be in the car. Lying to the police about being armed is a big deal (at least in my state).

The proper answer is the same as always, "Officer I fully intend to cooperate with your investigation, however I wish to remain silent until my lawyer is present. No I don't give you permission to search me or my vehicle. Can I be on my way now?"

There are several accounts of the incident.

The wife only said that when the officer kept insisting and badgering about the pistol, imo. As if he was certain it was in the vehicle. She told him what he wanted to hear, to get him to quit badgering, which allowed the harassment to continue.

The officer apparently asked about pistol immediately, so they had already been informed of his permit.

It's likely they used the plate reader system and database to pick the guy out and go fishing to see if he had his pistol.

In other versions of this story, the pursuit begins after the Fort McHenry tunnel, which is equipped with the plate reader system.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
14
81
Making sure we all understand that Not All States Have Reciprocity Agreements With Each Other, and It Is The Firearm Owner's Responsibility To Check Prior To Traveling.

On checking, I do not see where Maryland honors Florida permits. Or any other states' either.

Http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/maryland.aspx

We now return the forum to it's normal outrage.

Please explain how reciprocity has anything to do with this, when he didn't even have the gun?
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
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This but was he pulled because he was a registered gun owner? If so, that's why we don't want to be in a database and he should sue.

Granted with the NRA and Gadsden stickers on my truck, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess I'm carrying.

Hard to say why, but fishing for a firearm violation is certainly within reason. The legality of pulling over someone just because... Dubious, at best. But I strongly doubt any judge would say anything. Especially given the highway could be described as a 'known drug corridor from Florida to the Northeast', thereby justifying the added scrutiny. Probably a good part of the reason the state installed the license plate reader in the first place.

As far as how they knew: certainly NJ's DMV database provides an indicator that a given vehicle owner has a firearm permit. When an officer runs your plate, they know if you're valid or not before switching on their lights. I imagine other states have similar systems (If not the same).
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Making sure we all understand that Not All States Have Reciprocity Agreements With Each Other, and It Is The Firearm Owner's Responsibility To Check Prior To Traveling.

On checking, I do not see where Maryland honors Florida permits. Or any other states' either.

Http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/maryland.aspx

We now return the forum to it's normal outrage.

Yes, when I don't have my gun with me while traveling, I will check to see what states will harass me...
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
There are several accounts of the incident.

The wife only said that when the officer kept insisting and badgering about the pistol, imo. As if he was certain it was in the vehicle. She told him what he wanted to hear, to get him to quit badgering, which allowed the harassment to continue.

The officer apparently asked about pistol immediately, so they had already been informed of his permit.

It's likely they used the plate reader system and database to pick the guy out and go fishing to see if he had his pistol.

In other versions of this story, the pursuit begins after the Fort McHenry tunnel, which is equipped with the plate reader system.

Regardless, they should have declined to answer questions.

You can't give up your rights, then complain that your rights were infringed on.
 

MiniDoom

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2004
5,305
0
71
conversation should have gone something like "Am I being detained? I don't consent to a search. Am I free to go?"
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Regardless, they should have declined to answer questions.

You can't give up your rights, then complain that your rights were infringed on.

There was no reason to stop the vehicle.

Their rights were already infringed.

Their vehicle was stopped simply because they have a FL concealed carry permit.

Saying that the gun could be in the car is not "giving up your rights".

It's legal to have the gun in the vehicle as long as it's not readily accessible or if it is unloaded. She didn't say anything that indicated that any law was being violated.

Q. Can I legally transport firearms interstate? (From the MD State Police)
A. Yes, under Title 18, Section 926A, of the United States Code, a person who is not prohibited from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to
any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment. In the case the vehicle does not have a
compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked compartment other than the glove compartment or console.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,934
6,309
136
Hard to say why, but fishing for a firearm violation is certainly within reason. The legality of pulling over someone just because... Dubious, at best. But I strongly doubt any judge would say anything. Especially given the highway could be described as a 'known drug corridor from Florida to the Northeast', thereby justifying the added scrutiny. Probably a good part of the reason the state installed the license plate reader in the first place.

As far as how they knew: certainly NJ's DMV database provides an indicator that a given vehicle owner has a firearm permit. When an officer runs your plate, they know if you're valid or not before switching on their lights. I imagine other states have similar systems (If not the same).
Because I have a permit, it does not give them probable cause to stop me. But we all know that I crossed the center line.:rolleyes:

Bastards. A libtards wet dream.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
conversation should have gone something like "Am I being detained? I don't consent to a search. Am I free to go?"

right

However chemtrail boy above me thinks you should have a detailed conversation with the police.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
People can legally transport firearms through Maryland, even without any permits, as long as they are not readily accessible, so what's the point of harassing permit holders?

This was a fishing trip, pure and simple. Done because they could.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
People can legally transport firearms through Maryland, even without any permits, as long as they are not readily accessible, so what's the point of harassing permit holders?

This was a fishing trip, pure and simple. Done because they could.

If the wife stated the gun was in the passenger compartment, probable cause exists.

If the wife and husband had shut their mouths, nothing would have happened.

If you would do the same, the forum would be a better place.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
If the wife stated the gun was in the passenger compartment, probable cause exists.

If the wife and husband had shut their mouths, nothing would have happened.

If you would do the same, the forum would be a better place.

Yes, it's okay to badger people into "probable cause", it happens all the time.

Doesn't make it right.

Doesn't mean the wife did anything wrong. She didn't know where the pistol was, and that's what she said. "I don't know." She only offered the other possible places because she was scared.
Ten minutes later he’s back, and he wants John out of the Expedition. Retreating to the space between the SUV and the unmarked car, the officer orders John to hook his thumbs behind his back and spread his feet. “You own a gun,” the officer says. “Where is it?”

“At home in my safe,” John answers.

“Don’t move,” says the officer.

Now he’s at the passenger’s window. “Your husband owns a gun,” he says. “Where is it?”

First Kally says, “I don’t know.” Retelling it later she says, “And that’s all I should have said.” Instead, attempting to be helpful, she added, “Maybe in the glove [box]. Maybe in the console. I’m scared of it. I don’t want to have anything to do with it. I might shoot right through my foot.”

The officer came back to John. “You’re a liar. You’re lying to me. Your family says you have it. Where is the gun? Tell me where it is and we can resolve this right now.”

Of course, John couldn’t show him what didn’t exist, but Kally’s failure to corroborate John’s account, the officer would tell them later, was the probable cause that allowed him to summon backup — three marked cars joined the lineup along the I-95 shoulder — and empty the Expedition of riders, luggage, Christmas gifts, laundry bags; to pat down Kally and Yianni; to explore the engine compartment and probe inside door panels; and to separate and isolate the Filippidises in the back seats of the patrol cars.

Ninety minutes later, or maybe it was two hours — “It felt like forever,” Kally says — no weapon found and their possessions repacked, the episode ended ... with the officer writing out a warning.

Yep, that's just what she'd say if they were actually hiding a gun...

A warning for what, I wonder? Don't try to exercise your rights?
 
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