ProPublica uses leaked IRS data to show how wealth inequality is messed up in this country

[ponyo]

Hey kid, let us know when you can talk about an issue without resorting to straw man arguments, until then I’d suggest keeping your mouth shut unless you intend to show us just how dumb you are.

Btw, your insecurity is showing.

You're the one grasping at straws. You seem little angry. Don't blame others for your failure.

I personally have zero issue with people inventing things and businesses that make them very wealthy. I don't think this article does either, and that was not the point of this post. The point is the system of taxation and how the wealthy can game the system is fucked. It's crystal crystal clear.

Also there is absolutely no equality of opportunity in this country. Sure some people move from lower to upper class. My pops came here with little and he and my mom ended up in the upper middle class. But class mobility is far more rare than it should be.

Unlike you, I don't have problem with how people in that article made their money. Well, maybe Soros. But that's more my dislike of Soros as a person.

Bezos is starting to sell off his Amazon shares. Recent years, he's stepped up his selling to fund his increasing lavish lifestyle and to fund Blue Origin. So Bezos is starting to pay some taxes. Musk is not going to sell his shares anytime soon and he takes $0 salary from Tesla so he's not going to have much income taxes to pay except for stock options he exercises. That's his entire compensation plan so he sells some Tesla stock whenever he has to cover the cost of the option exercise. But other than that, Musk only buys more Tesla stock and won't sell. But Musk will eventually have to cash out in order to fund his dream of colonizing Mars. He's going to need like trillion dollars to realize his dream, and he will start selling his Tesla and SpaceX shares then. We will see it in his lifetime. So the US government will collect their taxes then. Until then, he's going to take advantage of the current tax laws to defer tax payments as long as possible and keep compounding his return. You think Musk is rich now? Wait until he's the world's first trillionaire. He's well on his way and he's going to need every penny if he wants to colonize Mars. I rather see people like Bezos and Musk become rich to better humanity than people like Buffet who's just great allocator of capital. Bezos and Musk are producing and manufacturing things and trying to push humanity forward with technology and grand ideas.

Then you have complete disgrace and tax cheats like Trump. Everyone knows Trump cheats like hell on his taxes. He's an example of what's wrong with our system. He blatantly cheats. That's not the problem with tax laws but rather our judicial system. In the US, rich people literally get away with murder. They can do anything and not face consequences. There's two separate and unequal justice system in this country for the ultra rich and the rest of us. That's where the real reforms need to happen. Trump should've been impeached and he should be in jail for tax fraud along with lot other crimes right now. Yet, he remains free and will continue to cheat without repercussion. And that's where the outrage should be. The justice system is failing us. Not our tax system.

 

[blackangst1]

So you guys think a higher audit rate (one that has been declining faster for the rich than for the poor) disproves my point? Way to straw man.

Well, yes. It proves your statement false. You seem to portray the rich dont get audited.

 

[blackangst1]

I personally have zero issue with people inventing things and businesses that make them very wealthy. I don't think this article does either, and that was not the point of this post. The point is the system of taxation and how the wealthy can game the system is fucked. It's crystal crystal clear.

Also there is absolutely no equality of opportunity in this country. Sure some people move from lower to upper class. My pops came here with little and he and my mom ended up in the upper middle class. But class mobility is far more rare than it should be.

Twenty Billionaires Who Started With Nothing - Bloomberg

You can build a legacy. If youre lucky, and smart, and work hard.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I can’t figure out why someone earning a tiny, tiny fraction of this money is so worried that a dude worth literally millions of times more money than them are super, super concerned about multi millionaires and billionaires paying more in taxes.


Only good thing is there are fewer of these guys today vs 10 years ago.

 

[blackangst1]

I can’t figure out why someone earning a tiny, tiny fraction of this money is so worried that a dude worth literally millions of times more money than them are super, super concerned about multi millionaires and billionaires paying more in taxes.


Only good thing is there are fewer of these guys today vs 10 years ago.

Jealousy? IDK. Its not like if taxes were increased 100% on the wealthiest in America, that dude would benefit from it.

 

[MrSquished]

Twenty Billionaires Who Started With Nothing - Bloomberg

You can build a legacy. If youre lucky, and smart, and work hard.

Sure. 20 people, out of a population of hundreds of millions that have been born and died while 20 achieved that.

It's about the same odds as playing the lottery. And those are dumb odds.

It's the carrot on a stick thing to make people think dumb shit that the super rich should pay a fraction of their income in taxes compared to everyone else.

 

[blackangst1]

You're the one grasping at straws. You seem little angry. Don't blame others for your failure.


Unlike you, I don't have problem with how people in that article made their money. Well, maybe Soros. But that's more my dislike of Soros as a person.

Bezos is starting to sell off his Amazon shares. Recent years, he's stepped up his selling to fund his increasing lavish lifestyle and to fund Blue Origin. So Bezos is starting to pay some taxes. Musk is not going to sell his shares anytime soon and he takes $0 salary from Tesla so he's not going to have much income taxes to pay except for stock options he exercises. That's his entire compensation plan so he sells some Tesla stock whenever he has to cover the cost of the option exercise. But other than that, Musk only buys more Tesla stock and won't sell. But Musk will eventually have to cash out in order to fund his dream of colonizing Mars. He's going to need like trillion dollars to realize his dream, and he will start selling his Tesla and SpaceX shares then. We will see it in his lifetime. So the US government will collect their taxes then. Until then, he's going to take advantage of the current tax laws to defer tax payments as long as possible and keep compounding his return. You think Musk is rich now? Wait until he's the world's first trillionaire. He's well on his way and he's going to need every penny if he wants to colonize Mars. I rather see people like Bezos and Musk become rich to better humanity than people like Buffet who's just great allocator of capital. Bezos and Musk are producing and manufacturing things and trying to push humanity forward with technology and grand ideas.

Then you have complete disgrace and tax cheats like Trump. Everyone knows Trump cheats like hell on his taxes. He's an example of what's wrong with our system. He blatantly cheats. That's not the problem with tax laws but rather our judicial system. In the US, rich people literally get away with murder. They can do anything and not face consequences. There's two separate and unequal justice system in this country for the ultra rich and the rest of us. That's where the real reforms need to happen. Trump should've been impeached and he should be in jail for tax fraud along with lot other crimes right now. Yet, he remains free and will continue to cheat without repercussion. And that's where the outrage should be. The justice system is failing us. Not our tax system.

He was. TWICE.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Jealousy? IDK. Its not like if taxes were increased 100% on the wealthiest in America, that dude would benefit from it.

Maybe but personally I find it offensive that a dude with multiple billions not only pays a lower tax percentage than I but actually a lower number. That is down right insulting in my opinion.

 

[blackangst1]

Sure. 20 people, out of a population of hundreds of millions that have been born and died while 20 achieved that.

It's about the same odds as playing the lottery. And those are dumb odds.

It's the carrot on a stick thing to make people think dumb shit that the super rich should pay a fraction of their income in taxes compared to everyone else.

Becoming wealthy has alot better odds than winning the lottery lol.

Thank God wealth is dynamic. Its there for anyone willing to risk/work for it.

 

[blackangst1]

Maybe but personally I find it offensive that a dude with multiple billions not only pays a lower tax percentage than I but actually a lower number. That is down right insulting in my opinion.

And yet the top 1% paid 38% of taxes collected by the IRS.

Its only offensive if that dude earned his money the same way you and I do.

edit: IMHO. I take advantage of every possible deduction available to me. Dont you? So does that dude.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

And yet the top 1% paid 38% of taxes collected by the IRS.

Sure they have 30-50 times the wealth.
Still doesn’t change the fact that some people with billions in assets pay fewer total dollars than I do in federal taxes. That is offensive to me.

 

[ponyo]

Sure. 20 people, out of a population of hundreds of millions that have been born and died while 20 achieved that.

It's about the same odds as playing the lottery. And those are dumb odds.

It's the carrot on a stick thing to make people think dumb shit that the super rich should pay a fraction of their income in taxes compared to everyone else.

So what do you want? Annual wealth tax on their unrealized stock gains? Because that's about the only way you're going to tax some of them until they sell their stocks. I'm ok with taxing billionaires separately. But you start messing with millionaires and their taxes, you're messing with me. There are like 20 million+ millionaires in this country. If you start messing with max tax rates and capital gains tax, you're taking money out of my pocket. I already pay shitload of taxes and even pay the additional shitty 3.8% NIIT on top of the max fed rate. I'm not cheating on my taxes. I pay more than my fair share IMO. Way more than I should.

 

[LikeLinus]

You're the one grasping at straws. You seem little angry. Don't blame others for your failure.


Unlike you, I don't have problem with how people in that article made their money. Well, maybe Soros. But that's more my dislike of Soros as a person.

Bezos is starting to sell off his Amazon shares. Recent years, he's stepped up his selling to fund his increasing lavish lifestyle and to fund Blue Origin. So Bezos is starting to pay some taxes. Musk is not going to sell his shares anytime soon and he takes $0 salary from Tesla so he's not going to have much income taxes to pay except for stock options he exercises. That's his entire compensation plan so he sells some Tesla stock whenever he has to cover the cost of the option exercise. But other than that, Musk only buys more Tesla stock and won't sell. But Musk will eventually have to cash out in order to fund his dream of colonizing Mars. He's going to need like trillion dollars to realize his dream, and he will start selling his Tesla and SpaceX shares then. We will see it in his lifetime. So the US government will collect their taxes then. Until then, he's going to take advantage of the current tax laws to defer tax payments as long as possible and keep compounding his return. You think Musk is rich now? Wait until he's the world's first trillionaire. He's well on his way and he's going to need every penny if he wants to colonize Mars. I rather see people like Bezos and Musk become rich to better humanity than people like Buffet who's just great allocator of capital. Bezos and Musk are producing and manufacturing things and trying to push humanity forward with technology and grand ideas.

Then you have complete disgrace and tax cheats like Trump. Everyone knows Trump cheats like hell on his taxes. He's an example of what's wrong with our system. He blatantly cheats. That's not the problem with tax laws but rather our judicial system. In the US, rich people literally get away with murder. They can do anything and not face consequences. There's two separate and unequal justice system in this country for the ultra rich and the rest of us. That's where the real reforms need to happen. Trump should've been impeached and he should be in jail for tax fraud along with lot other crimes right now. Yet, he remains free and will continue to cheat without repercussion. And that's where the outrage should be. The justice system is failing us. Not our tax system.

You are putting a LOT of "stock" (pun intended!) into Musk. He likes to tinker and he uses social media to manipulate stocks and companies. You really think he is going to invest everything into colonizing Mars? This isn't an Aliens movie, living on Mars won't happen in our lifetime. The guy likes to make a shitload of money and will do anything to do so. But, what he won't do, is jeopardize everything he has on something that is simply unachievable something he would do? Bezos and Musk like to play with space, but they aren't going to be willing to risk everything for it. They will spend Billions of dollars as long as it's still profitable to do so, but they won't do it to the detriment of their own wealth.

Gates and Buffet are trying to solve problems like cancer and such. They are spending their wealth and have guaranteed this. Has Musk? Didn't think so.

 

[Fenixgoon]

So what do you want? Annual wealth tax on their unrealized stock gains? Because that's about the only way you're going to tax some of them until they sell their stocks. I'm ok with taxing billionaires separately. But you start messing with millionaires and their taxes, you're messing with me. There are like 20 million+ millionaires in this country. If you start messing with max tax rates and capital gains tax, you're taking money out of my pocket. I already pay shitload of taxes and even pay the additional shitty 3.8% NIIT on top of the max fed rate. I'm not cheating on my taxes. I pay more than my fair share IMO. Way more than I should.

"i'm upset these taxes would make me pay more money"

but also

"i am in the top 1% and have a tremendous amount of wealth that the vast majority of americans will never, ever see"

so let me ask you this...what's it worth to you to improve the lives of the 99% of people below you in the income/wealth ladder? or do they all just need to bootstrap it?

 

[MrSquished]

On a tangent, I fail to see how colonizing Mars is really helping humanity more than fucking helping fixing shit on this planet. Climate change, healthcare, affordable housing, etc...

Way way more of a benefit to humanity than wanting to put a few humans on Mars.

We have a fucking beautiful habitable planet. Fucking save it.

The whole Mars thing is annoying when people try to put it in the framework of helping humanity at this point.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

On a tangent, I fail to see how colonizing Mars is really helping humanity more than fucking helping fixing shit on this planet. Climate change, healthcare, affordable housing, etc...

Way way more of a benefit to humanity than wanting to put a few humans on Mars.

We have a fucking beautiful habitable planet. Fucking save it.

The whole Mars thing is annoying when people try to put it in the framework of helping humanity at this point.

Science, stuff learned thru science
Would take a lot of team work to maintain & supply a Mars outpost

Grim stuff: possible preserving humans. Harder to extinguish two planets.

 

[MrSquished]

Science, stuff learned thru science
Would take a lot of team work to maintain & supply a Mars outpost

Grim stuff: possible preserving humans. Harder to extinguish two planets.

I appreciate the scientific endeavor, but we don't need to learn how to keep humans alive on a barren planet when we are fucking ours up and killing the people on it. The trickle down of technology from that adventure is probably a fragment of what we could do here on this habitable rock.

 

[compcons]

I appreciate the scientific endeavor, but we don't need to learn how to keep humans alive on a barren planet when we are fucking ours up and killing the people on it. The trickle down of technology from that adventure is probably a fragment of what we could do here on this habitable rock.

This. Instead of pumping money into making an inhabitable planet fit for life, how about we spend that money making our fit-for-life planet viable for the future. If we spent billions trying to make solar more efficient, we could finally fucking be able dump fossil fuels because it would be financially beneficial to do so. Why are people so dense? That's rhetorical. No one knows why...

 

[ponyo]

You are putting a LOT of "stock" (pun intended!) into Musk. He likes to tinker and he uses social media to manipulate stocks and companies. You really think he is going to invest everything into colonizing Mars? This isn't an Aliens movie, living on Mars won't happen in our lifetime. The guy likes to make a shitload of money and will do anything to do so. But, what he won't do, is jeopardize everything he has on something that is simply unachievable something he would do? Bezos and Musk like to play with space, but they aren't going to be willing to risk everything for it. They will spend Billions of dollars as long as it's still profitable to do so, but they won't do it to the detriment of their own wealth.

Gates and Buffet are trying to solve problems like cancer and such. They are spending their wealth and have guaranteed this. Has Musk? Didn't think so.

Pretty much everything you wrote here is wrong and incorrect. Musk has proven time and again he really doesn’t care about money other than trying to use it to go to Mars. He has risked every penny he has multiple times to keep SpaceX and Tesla from going bankrupt. You really don’t have a clue on the topic. You might try reading Elon Musk biography by Ashlee Vance. Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future. It gives good insight into what kind of person Elon Musk is and what drives him. There’s also another good book, Liftoff: Elon Musk and the Desperate Early Days that Launched SpaceX by Eric Berger. Plus literally hundreds hours of interviews of Elon Musk on YouTube.

Gates and Buffet are good at PR. Buffet is definition of hoarder. Buffet is not trying to solve any problem. He just wants to accumulate more wealth. He’s hoarder and just enjoys watching his money grow. It’s a game and source of enjoyment for him to try to grow and maximize his fortune. As for Musk, he already signed the Giving Pledge which is a pledge that he will give away at least half his fortune to charity. He was one of the first to do so back in 2012. But none of the pledges are binding and it’s just PR move. These guys are free to do whatever they want with their money. If it’s their lifelong dream to travel to Mars and establish a base there, they’re free to do so. It’s going to take crapload of money to do so and I don’t fault anything trying to follow their dream and turn it into reality. That’s better use of the money than giving it to some charity for PR move IMO.

 

[ponyo]

"i'm upset these taxes would make me pay more money"

but also

"i am in the top 1% and have a tremendous amount of wealth that the vast majority of americans will never, ever see"

so let me ask you this...what's it worth to you to improve the lives of the 99% of people below you in the income/wealth ladder? or do they all just need to bootstrap it?

I already pay enough taxes. I’m not a charity. Like everyone else, I want to pay the least amount of taxes possible under the law. I’m not looking to cheat or ask for handout.

The 99% of the people can make the same way I did. Through lot of hard work and huge amount of luck. I didn’t get any special treatment.

 

[WelshBloke]

As for Musk, he already signed the Giving Pledge which is a pledge that he will give away at least half his fortune to charity. He was one of the first to do so back in 2012.

Who were the guys that founded the giving pledge again?

 

[ponyo]

I appreciate the scientific endeavor, but we don't need to learn how to keep humans alive on a barren planet when we are fucking ours up and killing the people on it. The trickle down of technology from that adventure is probably a fragment of what we could do here on this habitable rock.

You have zero say in how someone chooses to spend their money. Earn your money and spend it however you wish on things you care about.

You really think people like Musk and Bezos are not doing anything for the planet or humanity? Do you not know the mission statement of Tesla? Tesla's mission is to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy.

They are fighting climate change and trying to switch us over to renewable energy. Tesla singlehandedly probably accelerated the move to electric cars by 10-50 years. Without Tesla, no one would have cared about electric cars. Certainly not the masses. Before Tesla, I thought electric cars were dumb idea and never would work. They completely changed my mind. They changed the mind of the entire auto industry and everyone will now move to electric or die. That’s real change and making a difference. Tesla will do the same with energy and storage with solar and megapacks and Powerwall. Soon, people and businesses will be their own utility and able to generate their own power and buy and sell excess capacity. That’s profound change and where the future is headed.

SpaceX has totally turned the rocket launch industry upside down with their reusable rockets, their pace of innovation, and low launch price. They have lowered the price of launch so much that things like Starlink is now possible. When Starlink is fully operational, that’s going to completely revolutionize the world by bringing affordable fast internet access to places and areas of earth that never had internet access. That’s game changer and will do more to level the playing field in the world than almost anything I can think of. Tesla solar with battery and SpaceX Starlink will allow you to live anywhere in the world and get electricity and fast internet. That’s amazing and pushes humanity forward. Talk about giving equal access to everyone.

And when Tesla solves full self driving, that’s going to change everything as well. Think about the lives saved, productivity gained, money saved. Just like Amazon changed retail and lowered prices for everyone. Think back to life before Amazon and now. That’s change most of us benefited from. Society gained huge convenience and productivity.

Hopefully, all this rocket tech for Mars will transfer to tech that will allow us to fast travel across the globe. I would love to get in a rocket ship and fly to Asia in couple of hours instead of 14 hours it takes now.

I’m all for trying to push technology forward fast as possible because who knows how long we will have to establish civilization on Mars. Knowledge and technology can be wiped out and the know how lost. It has happened many times before in history like the Dark Ages. If enough people are lost, wrong people come in power, disease that kills lot of the current scientists, engineers, academic ravages Earth, we could very well lose the ability to travel to Mars. So you never want to take current and future technology for granted and if the window of opportunity is there, it’s probably good idea to seize the moment. Because you never know for sure if the same opportunity will still be there in the future.

If you don’t like what any of these guys are choosing to do with their money, make your own money and spend it on things you believe in. But it’s lot easier to just whine on the Internet forum about how life is unfair and everyone needs to do more to help the poor and the world than do anything yourself. Don’t be pathetic.

 

[ponyo]

Who were the guys that founded the giving pledge again?

Two guys looking for good PR.

 

[LikeLinus]

Two guys looking for good PR.

Wow, Musk must be balls deep in your mouth right now. Not to mention completely clueless about what the foundation is doing with the money donated. It's all a PR firm. GJ buddy!

You're a complete moron if you think Musk doesn't give a shit about money. But I'll leave you to your delusions.

Forbes calls it like they see it. I guess you know better than them, right?

Elon Musk Has Promised To Give At Least Half His Fortune To Charity. Here’s How Much He’s Donated So Far

Now one of the country’s richest people thanks to soaring Tesla stock, Musk has light years to go to fulfill his philanthropic pledge.

www.forbes.com

"Because he’s given away less than 1% of his net worth, he received a philanthropy score of 1."

"Here’s what we know about his giving so far. Musk has donated about $25 million to nonprofit groups through his Musk Foundation since he launched the foundation in 2002. Over the years, he has transferred tens of millions of dollars from his foundation to two donor-advised funds; a spokesman for Musk told Forbes those funds had made grants totaling about $75 million. Because these funds are a bit like philanthropic bank accounts, without any requirement for annual distributions to charities nor any requirement to publicly disclose when grants are made, Forbes did not count gifts to donor-advised funds toward the giving we tallied—except when list members (like Musk) shared details about grants paid by such funds. "

Sounds like a very charitable guy!! Want to talk about PR more?

 

[WelshBloke]

Two guys looking for good PR.

But the guy you like who went along with them later is the good guy because?