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ProPublica uses leaked IRS data to show how wealth inequality is messed up in this country

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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
4,338
1,690
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No I'm not missing any basic points. I understand the difference between wealth and income. Do any of you? Do you understand the impact it would have on your take home pay if the company you worked for only payed you in stocks or bitcoin?
Do you truly understand the ramifications of being payed that way? I don't think you do and it's not your fault most Americans don't. There is a difference between wealth and income whether you want to believe that or not is all on you and your understanding of the difference.
I totally understand the ramifications of being paid that way. If my wife worked an normal income job, and I got paid in just stock or bitcoin we would have enough to live on without issue with just her salary (ie pay all the bills and break even and have benefits even) and would avoid a ridiculously large amount of taxes on what I earned.
Like I said, what would happen if everyone was able to do what these guys are doing? Like if there was some massive company that pooled everyone who's not a billionaire together for free to allow them to use billionaire tax avoidance strategies in unison? The country would be broke tomorrow.

So? You want to confiscate their wealth and distribute it to the poor people? We're not Cuba, Soviet Union, or China, comrade.
Look we pay taxes and taxes are progressive and get distributed through society. If you want to call taxes communism that seems a stretch. I think its better to state that these guys are getting filthy rich of things in society they aren't actually paying for and should pay their fair share. So many inputs to their products society is actually footing the bill (take for example road maintenance. Its well known that amazon trucks are destroying roads at a rate far higher than say your car) but these guys get to skip taxes and pass those costs on to society.

They built their wealth because they took massive risks and went all in. And their insane gambles paid off. It's something wage slaves know nothing about. These rich mavericks have created enormous productivity and gains for society and created massive wealth for everyone around them through creation of jobs, goods, services, and everything needed to run their businesses.

Tax laws are written by the wealthy. Of course it's going to favor them. But I don't hear the same whining when the same tax laws favors you.
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Jun 18, 2000
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I totally understand the ramifications of being paid that way. If my wife worked an normal income job, and I got paid in just stock or bitcoin we would have enough to live on without issue with just her salary (ie pay all the bills and break even and have benefits even) and would avoid a ridiculously large amount of taxes on what I earned.
Shares in lieu of cash is taxed the same as regular income. Your employer either has to withhold and sell a portion of the shares or you're on the hook to pay it yourself the tax year they were issued or vested.
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
8,617
3,380
136
Yes, but the problem is, if he dies without selling the stock, his heirs get a step up in basis to his date of death. Meaning that the capital gains realized by selling that stock are now approximately zero, so no one ever pays taxes on it.

Any outstanding loans would have to be paid off by the heirs, of course, but that is no problem since the heirs can sell the stock without paying capital gains taxes, then use the proceeds to pay off the loans.
Damn, I did not know about that particular grift. Two sets of rules, as always.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
10,108
6,202
136
It's amazing how people think just having rich people pay a fair percentage of wealth as taxes via closing loopholes in the system and still remaining billionaires many ten times over is communism. It's a completely insane train of thought. Literally nobody is saying they want anything remotely close to communism. The titans of capitalism will still be insanely insanely wealthy. When Buffet says the tax system is fucked and the wealthy have won the class war, he doesn't want communism, he still loves capitalism, he is just exposing a big flaw of the system.

How they make these leaps of logic is basically similar to someone who is incapable of critical thinking who has been brainwashed by propaganda. You can't have a conversation when they are so far out there.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
4,338
1,690
136
Shares in lieu of cash is taxed the same as regular income. Your employer either has to withhold and sell a portion of the shares or you're on the hook to pay it yourself the tax year they were issued or vested.
Hmm this I did not know. Paying someone in shares is seen differently than just buying shares and giving them away. So why is it that CEOs can get paid in shares and not pay taxes on them?

Damn, I did not know about that particular grift. Two sets of rules, as always.
Agreed. They're finding loop holes around the already extremely favorable capital gains rates.
Seems like the best thing is just to tax every stock at it's creation, with each purchase and its sale.
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
2,283
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It's amazing how people think just having rich people pay a fair percentage of wealth as taxes via closing loopholes in the system and still remaining billionaires many ten times over is communism. It's a completely insane train of thought. Literally nobody is saying they want anything remotely close to communism. The titans of capitalism will still be insanely insanely wealthy. When Buffet says the tax system is fucked and the wealthy have won the class war, he doesn't want communism, he still loves capitalism, he is just exposing a big flaw of the system.

How they make these leaps of logic is basically similar to someone who is incapable of critical thinking who has been brainwashed by propaganda. You can't have a conversation when they are so far out there.
The big loophole is the weak death tax in this country and how the cost basis is repriced at the price time of death for the heirs. I think that's wrong, and we need to eliminate that loophole. But I'm completely against the 40% LTCG tax. If that becomes law, I want 40% tax for everyone's income. I don't care if you make $1. Tax it 40% too. Let's see how you like paying 40% of your paycheck to the IRS.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
28,139
3,470
126
The big loophole is the weak death tax in this country and how the cost basis is repriced at the price time of death for the heirs. I think that's wrong, and we need to eliminate that loophole. But I'm completely against the 40% LTCG tax. If that becomes law, I want 40% tax for everyone's income. I don't care if you make $1. Tax it 40% too. Let's see how you like paying 40% of your paycheck to the IRS.
First, taxation is progressive.
Second, 40% of 100B leaves you with 60B. Still plenty for multiple lifetimes.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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The big loophole is the weak death tax in this country and how the cost basis is repriced at the price time of death for the heirs. I think that's wrong, and we need to eliminate that loophole. But I'm completely against the 40% LTCG tax. If that becomes law, I want 40% tax for everyone's income. I don't care if you make $1. Tax it 40% too. Let's see how you like paying 40% of your paycheck to the IRS.
Why does LTCG need to be a flat 40% tax? Why can't we make it have a progressive tax structure like income? I say just remove the special treatment it gets and treat it like ordinary income gets treated.
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
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126
First, taxation is progressive.
Second, 40% of 100B leaves you with 60B. Still plenty for multiple lifetimes.
I want you to pay 40% too. Why should you pay less than 40%? That leaves you plenty of money to buy hamburger in this lifetime.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
29,240
9,441
136
Why does LTCG need to be a flat 40% tax? Why can't we make it have a progressive tax structure like income? I say just remove the special treatment it gets and treat it like ordinary income gets treated.
Because it’s not fair and someday he’ll be a billionaire and he wants the same benefits! Besides, societies only work if everyone is taxed the same (lol that’s actually closer to communism than anything anyone else has proposed).
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
29,240
9,441
136
I want you to pay 40% too. Why should you pay less than 40%? That leaves you plenty of money to buy hamburger in this lifetime.
So you don’t understand how progressive taxes work or why we do it that way?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
10,108
6,202
136
None of you have paid 40% in your life. Once you paid 40%, come talk to me.
Ummm there is no 40% tax bracket period so it's impossible anybody has.

The highest tax bracket in America used to be much higher when we actually invested in building infrastructure and things of that nature, but it is not there now. Also, a progressive taxation system works differently.

Nobody is trying to impoverish the wealthy. You think people are going to be less motivated and be persecuted if they won't be able to play and game the tax system and only get to enjoy a life spending 10 billion dollars instead of 11? That's insane. You keep talking like these people are going to be crushed, smashed, forced to live in tents and we are going to turn into the Soviet union. The break from reality is real.
 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
28,139
3,470
126
I want you to pay 40% too. Why should you pay less than 40%? That leaves you plenty of money to buy hamburger in this lifetime.
I'll gladly trade a better tax code that increases my taxes along with appropriate increases for the wealthy in return for universal healthcare. Sign. Me. Up.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
2,283
126
Ummm there is no 40% tax bracket period so it's impossible anybody has.

The highest tax bracket in America used to be much higher when we actually invested in building infrastructure and things of that nature, but it is not there now. Also, a progressive taxation system works differently.

Nobody is trying to impoverish the wealthy. You think people are going to be less motivated and be persecuted if they won't be able to play and game the tax system and only get to enjoy a life spending 10 billion dollars instead of 11? That's insane. You keep talking like these people are going to be crushed, smashed, forced to live in tents and we are going to turn into the Soviet union. The break from reality is real.
https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/questions-and-answers-on-the-net-investment-income-tax

37% federal + 3.8% NIIT = 40.8% federal

Plenty of people pay this rate.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
14,720
8,022
146
I want you to pay 40% too. Why should you pay less than 40%? That leaves you plenty of money to buy hamburger in this lifetime.
You do understand that taxing at 40% someone who is unable to provide for themselves, someone who can provide for themselves and their immediate family, and someone who could provide for themselves and a town of 50,000 for life is entirely different?
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
17,211
4,850
136
I totally understand the ramifications of being paid that way. If my wife worked an normal income job, and I got paid in just stock or bitcoin we would have enough to live on without issue with just her salary (ie pay all the bills and break even and have benefits even) and would avoid a ridiculously large amount of taxes on what I earned.
Like I said, what would happen if everyone was able to do what these guys are doing? Like if there was some massive company that pooled everyone who's not a billionaire together for free to allow them to use billionaire tax avoidance strategies in unison? The country would be broke tomorrow.


Look we pay taxes and taxes are progressive and get distributed through society. If you want to call taxes communism that seems a stretch. I think its better to state that these guys are getting filthy rich of things in society they aren't actually paying for and should pay their fair share. So many inputs to their products society is actually footing the bill (take for example road maintenance. Its well known that amazon trucks are destroying roads at a rate far higher than say your car) but these guys get to skip taxes and pass those costs on to society.


View attachment 45606
If you have like a real career type job that you want to hang on to, to advance, you become a corporate nomad, or you will just be Gig fodder!
 

Meghan54

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2009
9,993
2,942
136
The big loophole is the weak death tax in this country and how the cost basis is repriced at the price time of death for the heirs. I think that's wrong, and we need to eliminate that loophole. But I'm completely against the 40% LTCG tax. If that becomes law, I want 40% tax for everyone's income. I don't care if you make $1. Tax it 40% too. Let's see how you like paying 40% of your paycheck to the IRS.
So after all that mealy-mouthed crap you’ve spewed throughout this thread, now you reveal you have absolutely no understanding of how a progressive tax system works. Typical. Scream loudly and talk down to others to cover for your lack of knowledge, facts, etc.

BTW…a top marginal federal income tax rate of 40% does NOT mean one pays 40% in fed. income taxes, as you implied above.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
4,338
1,690
136
None of you have paid 40% in your life. Once you paid 40%, come talk to me.
I'm paying over 40 percent right now.
State is 9% and federal is 37.

I'm ok with it. In fact every year there are new initiatives for more taxes like for universal pre k and I'm ok with them too. Pre k here just passed. In fact I wish they would means test them so that rich people pay more for pre k.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
29,240
9,441
136
You do understand that taxing at 40% someone who is unable to provide for themselves, someone who can provide for themselves and their immediate family, and someone who could provide for themselves and a town of 50,000 for life is entirely different?
He doesn’t appear to understand much of anything.
 

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