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ProPublica uses leaked IRS data to show how wealth inequality is messed up in this country

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Matt390

Member
Jun 7, 2019
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This is the bullshit argument conservatives throw around. Look, AOC got a $312 haircut, she can't possibly be in favor of the working class. Look, Buffet is paying 0.1%, he can't possibly be in favor of taxing the rich! The truth is, as you pointed out, that you can participate in our current system to your own benefit while still trying to reform the system to make it more fair. Republicans don't understand that, or don't want to acknowledge that.

Even in the current system, you can get a haircut much cheaper than 312 dollars. You can always send a check to the treasury if you want to pay more taxes.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,869
11,617
146
You dont have to contribute to a 401k, most people do because you don't pay any capital gains when your realize them.
Most people that contribute do so because it's the only retirement incentive they have available. And most American's don't have one, as AFAIK 401's are employer dependent.
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
2,283
126
I saw that referenced in the article. How do they pay back the loans? That part has me confused. I get the loan uses assets like stocks or property as collateral, but I assume they need income from some source to pay it back.
I didn't read this entire article because it's long, and I wasn't that interested in it. It's a hit piece and this kind of financial leak should be investigated and people responsible found and charged.

But I do have some knowledge on how portfolio margin loans work. No, you do not need income to pay back the loan. You do eventually have to pay back the loan but unless your margin called, you can keep accumulating interest payment balance "forever" until you want to pay off your loan. The interest on the margin loan is just charged to your overall account and is deducted from your overall portfolio balance. So the value of your portfolio drops by the interest charge. But margin interest is really low right now. For margin loan balance of $1 million or more, brokers will charge you less than 0.75%. That's less than 1% interest. For people like Musk and Bezos who have billions, I bet the interest charged to them is near 0%. Or maybe even 0%. But when your portfolio asset balance is increasing faster than the margin debt, you will never be margin called and you can keep that margin debt as long as you want without having to pay in full. They are technically making interest payment every month on the margin debt. It just gets deducted from their portfolio balance.

People here don't know the difference between unrealized gain and income. They think people should pay taxes on unrealized gains. To those people, Fuck You. Bezos, Musk, and others will pay taxes on the unrealized gains when they sell their stock. Bezos has been cashing out of his Amazon shares in recent years in tunes of couple billion a year. These people risked everything to start and build their companies. They took the risk of keeping their stock. So they're getting rewarded. People like Elon take no salary so they have no income to report. So it makes sense they pay no income tax if they don't sell anything. It's called yearly income tax, not yearly wealth tax.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,869
11,617
146
I didn't read this entire article because it's long, and I wasn't that interested in it. It's a hit piece and this kind of financial leak should be investigated and people responsible found and charged.

But I do have some knowledge on how portfolio margin loans work. No, you do not need income to pay back the loan. You do eventually have to pay back the loan but unless your margin called, you can keep accumulating interest payment balance "forever" until you want to pay off your loan. The interest on the margin loan is just charged to your overall account and is deducted from your overall portfolio balance. So the value of your portfolio drops by the interest charge. But margin interest is really low right now. For margin loan balance of $1 million or more, brokers will charge you less than 0.75%. That's less than 1% interest. For people like Musk and Bezos who have billions, I bet the interest charged to them is near 0%. Or maybe even 0%. But when your portfolio asset balance is increasing faster than the margin debt, you will never be margin called and you can keep that margin debt as long as you want without having to pay in full. They are technically making interest payment every month on the margin debt. It just gets deducted from their portfolio balance.

People here don't know the difference between unrealized gain and income. They think people should pay taxes on unrealized gains. To those people, Fuck You. Bezos, Musk, and others will pay taxes on the unrealized gains when they sell their stock. Bezos has been cashing out of his Amazon shares in recent years in tunes of couple billion a year. These people risked everything to start and build their companies. They took the risk of keeping their stock. So they're getting rewarded. People like Elon take no salary so they have no income to report. So it makes sense they pay no income tax if they don't sell anything. It's called yearly income tax, not yearly wealth tax.
The term used is wealth disparity, not income disparity.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,869
11,617
146
So? You want to confiscate their wealth and distribute it to the poor people? We're not Cuba, Soviet Union, or China, comrade.
Beat that straw bruh.

Your post was describing different incomes versus wealth. Nobody complains about income disparity, it's about wealth disparity. People like Bezos have built their wealth on the backs of Americans that make chump change compared to him.

Our tax laws cater or corporations and the wealthy, that's the way it is.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
19,273
2,095
126
Anybody who read that article and thinks like you do is either a billionaire religious fundamentalist or just incapable of critical thinking.

It does not make you a traitor to your country if you love the founding fathers creating a system of insane wealth disparity and inequality and codifying it and making it extremely difficult to change. Then you are just a good modern Republican that wants to go back to those days.
Wait - how did the founding fathers get involved here?

Most people that contribute do so because it's the only retirement incentive they have available. And most American's don't have one, as AFAIK 401's are employer dependent.
Not true - everyone who has taxable income and is under 70 can contribute to an IRA
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,869
11,617
146
Wait - how did the founding fathers get involved here?


Not true - everyone who has taxable income and is under 70 can contribute to an IRA
Yea, when they come up with some spare cash, they'll get right on it. Notice I used the word incentive, meaning the company provides it as a benefit and contributes as well....even if it's measly.

How many American's are contributing to retirement, in any form? How many can afford a sudden bill >$500?
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
2,283
126
Beat that straw bruh.

Your post was describing different incomes versus wealth. Nobody complains about income disparity, it's about wealth disparity. People like Bezos have built their wealth on the backs of Americans that make chump change compared to him.

Our tax laws cater or corporations and the wealthy, that's the way it is.
They built their wealth because they took massive risks and went all in. And their insane gambles paid off. It's something wage slaves know nothing about. These rich mavericks have created enormous productivity and gains for society and created massive wealth for everyone around them through creation of jobs, goods, services, and everything needed to run their businesses.

Tax laws are written by the wealthy. Of course it's going to favor them. But I don't hear the same whining when the same tax laws favors you.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,869
11,617
146
They built their wealth because they took massive risks and went all in. And their insane gambles paid off. It's something wage slaves know nothing about. These rich mavericks have created enormous productivity and gains for society and created massive wealth for everyone around them through creation of jobs, goods, services, and everything needed to run their businesses.
Interesting choice of words. Sure they took a gamble, and it paid off. It paid off in a society that's being crippled by wealthy disparity that's growing by the day. If you don't think it's a recipe for disaster, I don't know what to tell ya. Enjoy it while it lasts.

At least your done with the strawman "scary socialism" thing.

Tax laws are written by the wealthy. Of course it's going to favor them. But I don't hear the same whining when the same tax laws favors you.
lol, why would they favor me? I'm not wealthy, duh.
 
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Timorous

Senior member
Oct 27, 2008
599
633
136
So? You want to confiscate their wealth and distribute it to the poor people? We're not Cuba, Soviet Union, or China, comrade.
Not really. Just improve labour laws and minimum wage so that the people who actually make Amazon, Microsoft useful to society (the labourers) get a fairer share of revenue.

The issue is that this level of wealth disparity should be almost impossible to achieve if all people from the founding owner to the delivery driver get a fair amount for their efforts.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
2,283
126
Interesting choice of words. Sure they took a gamble, and it paid off. It paid off in a society that's being crippled by wealthy disparity that's growing by the day. If you don't think it's a recipe for disaster, I don't know what to tell ya. Enjoy it while it lasts.

At least your done with the strawman "scary socialism" thing.



lol, why would they favor me? I'm not wealthy, duh.
You own your house or rent? To a homeless person, you're "wealthy." Oh, so the value of your house went up since you bought it. It went up couple hundred thousands of dollars since you bought it or maybe it doubled, tripled in value. That's wealth disparity. That homeless person deserves much as you and you're going to need to pay tax on your unrealized home price gain today. Right now. Oh, you don't have the money to pay that tax because you're not liquid? Tough shit. Sell your house and pay your fair share of tax you tax dodger.

You're getting preferential treatment being homeowner vs renters. It's called being an owner. Same thing as people who own stocks. They're owners too.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
32,869
11,617
146
You own your house or rent? To a homeless person, you're "wealthy." Oh, so the value of your house went up since you bought it. It went up couple hundred thousands of dollars since you bought it or maybe it doubled, tripled in value. That's wealth disparity. That homeless person deserves much as you and you're going to need to pay tax on their unrealized home price gain today. Right now. Oh, you don't have the money to pay that tax because you're not liquid? Tough shit. Sell your house and pay your fair share of tax you tax dodger.
Lol, yes, my current situation is exactly like a billionaires. It's cool, you've move on to "it's all relative" and now I'm just like a guy worth 100 billion+ in your relativity argument. I checked my notes, this adds up lol.

You can obfuscate to your hearts content, but the wealth disparity were talking about is known to you.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
2,283
126
Lol, yes, my current situation is exactly like a billionaires. It's cool, you've move on to "it's all relative" and now I'm just like a guy worth 100 billion+ in your relativity argument. I checked my notes, this adds up lol.

You can obfuscate to your hearts content, but the wealth disparity were talking about is known to you.
Poor people can be selfish too. You're being envious and selfish.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,804
20,668
136
I love how wealthy individuals bemoan that the current tax system isn't fair but refuse to pay their fair share until mandated by law.
why? What does your brain calculate as the salient point in your comment?

I'm legit curious.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,804
20,668
136
They built their wealth because they took massive risks and went all in. And their insane gambles paid off. It's something wage slaves know nothing about. These rich mavericks have created enormous productivity and gains for society and created massive wealth for everyone around them through creation of jobs, goods, services, and everything needed to run their businesses.

Tax laws are written by the wealthy. Of course it's going to favor them. But I don't hear the same whining when the same tax laws favors you.
lol, then back to the world when they do favor the rest of us.

You should probably read the article...because it doesn't argue what you want to think it does.
 
Dec 10, 2005
20,998
2,470
126
You dont have to contribute to a 401k, most people do because you don't pay any capital gains when your realize them.
And when you take your retirement distributions, the whole distribution gets taxed as ordinary income. What a deal.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
2,283
126
And when you take your retirement distributions, the whole distribution gets taxed as ordinary income. What a deal.
Because you never paid the tax on the 401k when you first contributed. You put in pretax dollars. And that money was allowed to grow tax free until retirement distribution. And you're complaining about that? That's crazy good deal.

Your tax rate in retirement should be pretty low since you'll likely be in lower tax bracket.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
18,950
2,283
126
So you save a tad on state income taxes, depending on your local rules. You'll still pay the ordinary federal rate.
The federal rate you never paid. And your federal rate is likely lower when you retire than during your working years.
 

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