Property issues

[mattpegher]

I was just wondering if there were any legal experts on ATOT.

About 7 years ago, I built my house. I purchased the property through a builder/developer in a 20 some home development. My property and 4 of my neighbors are along the lake. As this is NJ, the township made the developer subdevide the lake. The lake and the land under the lake is included in the properties of about 8 homes. The township mandated the establishment of a lake association that allows these homes and about 15 others that border the lake to share the use of the lake. All the property in and around the lake is privately owned and the association owns no property. The associations main duty is to collect dues to treat the lake for weed, which costs $7000/year.

Now the problem.
About 50 years ago, the owner of the property including about 3/4 of the lake, built another development about 1/2 a mile away. These homes claim to have rights to use the lake included in their deeds. In addition 3 boats have been parked on an area of my property that borders the lake along the road, and the owners refuse to remove them.

My questions are.

1. Lets assume that these rights were legally given to these homes 50 years ago. Would that allow them to use the lake without being responsible to share in the upkeep, ie join the lake association.

2. Rights of use of the lake do not automatically grant the right of egress accross my property to get to the lake, nor the right to park a boat on my property.

3. If these people claim rights, isn't their responsibility to prove their rights to use my property rather than mine to prove that they do not. And shouldn't the authorities enforce my property rights until such a time as they file suit. I had an officer out but he refused to do anything stating that this is a civil matter, but the other party has not filed any civil suit or even had a lawyer produce any appeal to the association.

I am looking into legal counsel but the cost is much more than the association can bare.

Any serious suggestions appreciated.
All jovial suggestions expected.

Thanks

 

[rbV5]

I'm no lawer, but my deed includes all covenants and easments for my parcel of real property.


Why would "their" deed grant them any rights on "other" real property?

Shouldn't "ANY" right of way or easment for your parcel be recorded on "your" deed?

 

[Capt Caveman]

If they can't prove they have an easement/egress to the lake via your property, have them towed.

 

[OutHouse]

parking a boat means a boat on a trailer parked on your land?

 

[kranky]

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me you could do a little research without the need of a lawyer, at least to start.

The paperwork that defines the lake association might specify exactly who must contribute to the upkeep. And the deeds of the homes in the other development are probably available for inspection at some county office, so you could see if they contain the language giving them rights to use the lake.

It's certain they do not have the right to cross your property to get to the lake or park their boats on your property unless there's some oddball easement in your deed. Perhaps getting a lawyer to write a letter to the offenders telling them they have 5 days to remove their boats or you will dispose of them would be enough, and that shouldn't cost very much. If you must resort to a civil case, perhaps you would be entitled to recover your legal costs when you win.

I think you have to treat this as two separate situations.
1. Boats on your property and them trespassing to get to the lake. That's solely your issue and shouldn't cost you much to get legal advice.
2. The other people using the lake. For that it would seem reasonable for all the other homeowners to at least contribute to an initial consultation with a lawyer to find out what your options are. Let's say the people from the other development do have legal rights to use the lake. The lake association has officers, a constitution and bylaws, right? I wonder if it would be possible for the lake association to vote to modify their rules to require contributions by anyone who uses the lake (and not simply those whose properties abut the lake). Let's say it takes a 2/3 majority to modify the rules. Chances are the only dissenting vote might be the person who owns 3/4 of the lake and handed out rights to the people in the other development. Everyone else votes to impose the fee, problem solved.

 

[mattpegher]

Originally posted by: rbV5
I'm no lawer, but my deed includes all covenants and easments for my parcel of real property.


Why would "their" deed grant them any rights on "other" real property?

Shouldn't "ANY" right of way or easment for your parcel be recorded on "your" deed?

I would have thought so, but I have to go to the county court house to get copies of all the old deeds back 50 years as well as theirs, not all the easements are updated in the current deed and only reference in old deed books.

 

[Mursilis]

Real estate law is usually state law, and I've never been licensed in New Jersey or studied their laws. That being said:

Any easements for access to the land of another should probably be included in the other property owner's deed, and certainly should've been noted in yours. If this wasn't brought to your attention when you closed on a property, you might have a claim against whoever issued your title insurance. Proper clear title may not have been conveyed to you.

When property is 'landlocked' - completely surrounted by other private property - there's usually some right of access for the owner of landlocked property, so if they actually have a right to use the lake, they probably have a right to cut across someone else's property to get there. However, even assuming they have a right of access to the lake, storing boats there is probably a different story. Check your state's laws (especially case law), but that doesn't sound right. And if they do have a right to use the lake, then it's quite possible they can be made to pay for the upkeep - property owners or users are usually equally liable for reasonable upkeep.

Sounds like a trip to the county courthouse is in order to straighten all this out. First, read their deeds and yours to see if they truly have an easement or covenant to use your lake, and go from there.

 

[nweaver]

does your deed list an easement?

An easement on your land does != a parking lot. Call the cops, ask them to pull plates/contact owners (if you don't know who they are) and tell them they have 3 days to move their boats, and then call the local towing company.

Use of the lake is where research/lawyers may come into play. using your land to access the lake, and parking on your land is something you should be able to quickly get help on from the county recorders office (does it have an easement or not). If they refuse to move their boat, then go buy the rattiest car you can find, fill it full of trash, and park it on their sidewalk.

 

[KK]

:camera:s of the situation?

 

[mattpegher]

Thanks , many great responses.

 

[daveshel]

Sounds like you have a cause of action against the owner, who has in effect sold the same thing twice. The subdivision of the lake conferred title to property that had already been granted to the earlier development. You will need to file suit against him and ask for declaratory and injunctive relief. Since selling the same thing twice is a somewhat egregious act, you may be able to get attorney's fees awarded by the court. If you can prove he did it knowingly and with wanton indifference, you could even ask for punitive damages, but that is a long shot.

 

[txrandom]

Keep us updated. If you find out they can't be on your property 100%, take pictures of their cars and boats getting towed.

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: Mursilis
Real estate law is usually state law, and I've never been licensed in New Jersey or studied their laws. That being said:

Any easements for access to the land of another should probably be included in the other property owner's deed, and certainly should've been noted in yours. If this wasn't brought to your attention when you closed on a property, you might have a claim against whoever issued your title insurance. Proper clear title may not have been conveyed to you.

When property is 'landlocked' - completely surrounted by other private property - there's usually some right of access for the owner of landlocked property, so if they actually have a right to use the lake, they probably have a right to cut across someone else's property to get there. However, even assuming they have a right of access to the lake, storing boats there is probably a different story. Check your state's laws (especially case law), but that doesn't sound right. And if they do have a right to use the lake, then it's quite possible they can be made to pay for the upkeep - property owners or users are usually equally liable for reasonable upkeep.

Sounds like a trip to the county courthouse is in order to straighten all this out. First, read their deeds and yours to see if they truly have an easement or covenant to use your lake, and go from there.

I am not sure about NJ real property laws but in Ohio you can't have land-locked parcels either without ingress/egress to a public highway/road. I imagine an easement over land to a lake would not be mandated since you don't live on an island. You may have to search your as well as other deeds for the exact wording of any easements. There are a few types of easements and some can expire from abandoment. You will need to find these easements. As far as title insurance, I'm not sure if all state require it.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: daveshel
Sounds like you have a cause of action against the owner, who has in effect sold the same thing twice. The subdivision of the lake conferred title to property that had already been granted to the earlier development. You will need to file suit against him and ask for declaratory and injunctive relief. Since selling the same thing twice is a somewhat egregious act, you may be able to get attorney's fees awarded by the court. If you can prove he did it knowingly and with wanton indifference, you could even ask for punitive damages, but that is a long shot.

Well, the developer didn't sell the same thing twice, at least based on what's been presented. The other parties are not claiming ownership of the lake, only a right of access (easement). Therefore, the developer could still have sold the lake and surrounding land, subject of course to the pre-existing easement. Of course the developer would then also have had to provide some sort of notice to the OP and anyone else buying the lake and the land around it.

 

[axelfox]

Originally posted by: rbV5
I'm no lawer, but my deed includes all covenants and easments for my parcel of real property.


Why would "their" deed grant them any rights on "other" real property?

Shouldn't "ANY" right of way or easment for your parcel be recorded on "your" deed?

Clearly

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I was just wondering if there were any legal experts on ATOT.

About 7 years ago, I built my house. I purchased the property through a builder/developer in a 20 some home development. My property and 4 of my neighbors are along the lake. As this is NJ, the township made the developer subdevide the lake. The lake and the land under the lake is included in the properties of about 8 homes. The township mandated the establishment of a lake association that allows these homes and about 15 others that border the lake to share the use of the lake. All the property in and around the lake is privately owned and the association owns no property. The associations main duty is to collect dues to treat the lake for weed, which costs $7000/year.

Now the problem.
About 50 years ago, the owner of the property including about 3/4 of the lake, built another development about 1/2 a mile away. These homes claim to have rights to use the lake included in their deeds. In addition 3 boats have been parked on an area of my property that borders the lake along the road, and the owners refuse to remove them.

My questions are.

1. Lets assume that these rights were legally given to these homes 50 years ago. Would that allow them to use the lake without being responsible to share in the upkeep, ie join the lake association.

2. Rights of use of the lake do not automatically grant the right of egress accross my property to get to the lake, nor the right to park a boat on my property.

3. If these people claim rights, isn't their responsibility to prove their rights to use my property rather than mine to prove that they do not. And shouldn't the authorities enforce my property rights until such a time as they file suit. I had an officer out but he refused to do anything stating that this is a civil matter, but the other party has not filed any civil suit or even had a lawyer produce any appeal to the association.

I am looking into legal counsel but the cost is much more than the association can bare.

Any serious suggestions appreciated.
All jovial suggestions expected.

Thanks

i am not licensed in new jersey nor have i ever studied nj property law in particular. but i w would say that if the guy who owned 3/4 of the lake built a development 1/2 a mile from the lake with the intent that those in the development access and enjoy the lake, any easement they might have would be across that guy's land and only that guy's land.

i'd also say to check with the township's regs as to whether they have to upkeep. if they are claiming an ownership interest in it, then it would seem to me they would need to pay part of the upkeep.

you really need to talk to a lawyer in nj, however.

 

[aircooled]

Not sure about NJ, but I have a "greenway easement" on my property and it is very clearly stated on the deed. I'm surprised it's not very explicit on your paperwork. That's definitely something I would have a full understanding of before closing on the property.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: axelfox

Originally posted by: rbV5
I'm no lawer, but my deed includes all covenants and easments for my parcel of real property.


Why would "their" deed grant them any rights on "other" real property?

Shouldn't "ANY" right of way or easment for your parcel be recorded on "your" deed?

Clearly

Doh! LOL, Doh!

damn spelchek

 

[mattpegher]

Update

I have no easements on my plat or the plat of the property prior to subdivision, that would indicate right of use or egress/ingress. Unfortunately as is usual in the deeds in my area, copies of prior deeds, and easements are not included in the paperwork or the disclosure at closing. I have been able to print recent deeds online but all the old books are not available. Again this would be included in documents 50 years old. I am planning to get down to the county office and research this stuff myself.


I think that if I ever by another property again I will demand copies of all old deeds, and easements. Of course my lazy a$$ title company didn't do there job, but includes in their exclusions any "lake rights".

 

[Shadowknight]

Just make sure while you're at it you MAKE the jerks in question provide copies of the deeds that give them access rights. They can say they have access till their blue in the face, but they have to provide proof or it's not going to stand up in court.

Good luck.

 

[IGBT]

..check the public record and see if their/yours deed supports an easment and access to i.e.existing road. I had a similar problem where a land owner was claiming a common easment on my property to access his lot. I did the research and found out he had no supporting language on his deed and no easments indicated on mine.

 

[mattpegher]

What really bothers me is that the police won't enforce my property rights unless I retain a lawyer, spend thousands of dollars to prove that these people do not have rights to use my property. Shouldn't they inforce a no tresspass unless the claimants file a civil suit. In otherwords, since no civil action has been taken on their part, my rights as a property owner should be inforced.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
What really bothers me is that the police won't enforce my property rights unless I retain a lawyer, spend thousands of dollars to prove that these people do not have rights to use my property. Shouldn't they inforce a no tresspass unless the claimants file a civil suit. In otherwords, since no civil action has been taken on their part, my rights as a property owner should be inforced.

Ideally, you're right. Sounds like the police just don't want to get involved. It's up to the other people to prove they have a right to be on your property. You need to find a way to force them to demonstrate to you they have such a right, such as getting those boats towed or something.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
What really bothers me is that the police won't enforce my property rights unless I retain a lawyer, spend thousands of dollars to prove that these people do not have rights to use my property. Shouldn't they inforce a no tresspass unless the claimants file a civil suit. In otherwords, since no civil action has been taken on their part, my rights as a property owner should be inforced.

..I've had good results putting up fences and boundries then taking pictures. Clearly define your property lines. You'll have to research the public record and read their deed language.

 

[DrPizza]

I believe the police are acting appropriately. Think of it from the point of view of the other people - they could be saying the same thing if somehow you prevented them from gaining access - shouldn't the police help them gain access to what they have the right to have access to?

However, good luck in getting to the bottom of this. Personally, I'd be friendly toward the people making this claim. You probably don't want to make enemies out of them, especially if it's later found that their claim is valid. The last thing you'd want is someone running a PWC at 6am just to spite you.