Proof that Bush's tax cuts are the leading factor in the huge deficits
- Thread starter conjur
- Start date
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
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You're focusing on only half the equation, and the half of lesser importance at that. The spending side of the ledger is the more worrisome, and it's gone up regardless of which party has held power or the income tax levels in place at the time. And although I assign Bush his full share of blame in increasing spending in recent years, he's just the most recent example. Until one side or the other gets serious about reining in spending, bitching about tax cuts is just so much pissing into the wind.
If the middle class is paying record high taxes but total tax revenues are the lowest since 1942, who got the most tax cuts? Corporations and the rich.
Where do you see that the middle class is paying record high taxes? More people now are not paying taxes than before...
You might want to take a look at the tax structures in 1942, i think you will find it interesting...
Yeh, well, according to our republican friends, the recession is over, the economy is growing... but the deficits just keep getting bigger... maybe somebody is talking out of both sides of their mouths...
Lemme see- massive counterproductive taxcuts for the wealthy, corporate pork, massive military spending to protect us from "terrarists" ( an oxymoron if I ever heard one), war in Iraq to accomplish the same misdirection, coupled with uber lax tax enforcement on those at the top of the heap.... I suspect we could actually be running a surplus, paying off the debt, if it weren't for greed at the top, and a desire to pander to the same... without touching the pocketbooks of middle America in the slightest.
As George Akerlof said, what we're witnessing is a form of looting...
If we were to take away the deficits, start paying off the debt, investors would be forced to invest in the risky economy, rather than nice safe govt securities... it cuts both ways.... Besides that, the recession is over, right? The need for deficits is theoretically a pump-priming rationale, after all. Or has the economy and our expectations become so warped that we're now hooked on debt, destined to pursue that illusory spiral to its Argentine-like inevitability?
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,407
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again, if it is only over due to deficit spending suddenly removing that spending would put the economy back into recession (or, having never had that spending to begin with, we'd just still be in recession). this bout of deficit spending probably hasn't had as much of an effect as others due to lots of people wanting (and expecting) to see it fail, but it has had an expansionary effect. as for pump priming, yes and no, it does help to get a recovery started, but it shouldn't be removed until we're a bit into a good expansion. part of the reason you would want deficit spending is to maintain the level of gov't services during a recession that you have during an expansion. ideally this would just happen automatically, with a pretty constant level of services compared to the natural cycle of rising and falling revenues. but no politician can keep their hands off a surplus.
hopefully we won't end up in an argentine spiral. part of the problem with a lot of the countries going through that sort of thing is that they don't have the political will to pay off their debt, keep their inflation rate low so that investors think their bonds are attractive, etc. history has shown politically controlled central banks are a bad thing, so hopefully the fed doesn't get polticized.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Or maybe we've been over this issue a million times here. conjur is wrong. Spending alway has been and always will be what causes deficits. Until we get Federal spending under control we won't have fiscally sound and responsible gov't.
So yeah, ldir, your little "for-against" quip is funny and I chuckled - it doesn't apply to me. Kerry has that distinction and you are quite unoriginal with your attempt at label me. Maybe you should worry about your boy kerry who actually is for and against things instead of me
CkG
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Or maybe we've been over this issue a million times here. conjur is wrong. Spending alway has been and always will be what causes deficits. Until we get Federal spending under control we won't have fiscally sound and responsible gov't.
So yeah, ldir, your little "for-against" quip is funny and I chuckled - it doesn't apply to me. Kerry has that distinction and you are quite unoriginal with your attempt at label me. Maybe you should worry about your boy kerry who actually is for and against things instead of me
CkG
ya, but where the republicans have always lied about deficits is: they claim they will cut taxes AND cut spending and yet they have consistently raised spending more than the democrats. THAT'S why we have a deficit.
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Or maybe we've been over this issue a million times here. conjur is wrong. Spending alway has been and always will be what causes deficits. Until we get Federal spending under control we won't have fiscally sound and responsible gov't.
So yeah, ldir, your little "for-against" quip is funny and I chuckled - it doesn't apply to me. Kerry has that distinction and you are quite unoriginal with your attempt at label me. Maybe you should worry about your boy kerry who actually is for and against things instead of me
CkG
So you'll agree to attach the "for-against" label to Bush as well? Or does he never flop? Or does it just not suit your agenda? :roll:
Aren't conservatives generally for a smaller and more fiscally responsible govt.? Do these tax cuts not increase the deficit? How come you're not lambasting Bush for his wild spending? Don't you think that a Democratic President and a Republican Congress would reign in wild spending--to a certain extent?
I'm not an economist, but isn't this indication that Bush's tax cuts are more hindrance than help?
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Or maybe we've been over this issue a million times here. conjur is wrong. Spending alway has been and always will be what causes deficits. Until we get Federal spending under control we won't have fiscally sound and responsible gov't.
So yeah, ldir, your little "for-against" quip is funny and I chuckled - it doesn't apply to me. Kerry has that distinction and you are quite unoriginal with your attempt at label me. Maybe you should worry about your boy kerry who actually is for and against things instead of me
CkG
ya, but where the republicans have always lied about deficits is: they claim they will cut taxes AND cut spending and yet they have consistently raised spending more than the democrats. THAT'S why we have a deficit.
Umm...the democratic party has proposed more in spending that what actually got into the budget.
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Or maybe we've been over this issue a million times here. conjur is wrong. Spending alway has been and always will be what causes deficits. Until we get Federal spending under control we won't have fiscally sound and responsible gov't.
So yeah, ldir, your little "for-against" quip is funny and I chuckled - it doesn't apply to me. Kerry has that distinction and you are quite unoriginal with your attempt at label me. Maybe you should worry about your boy kerry who actually is for and against things instead of me
CkG
ya, but where the republicans have always lied about deficits is: they claim they will cut taxes AND cut spending and yet they have consistently raised spending more than the democrats. THAT'S why we have a deficit.
Umm...the democratic party has proposed more in spending that what actually got into the budget.
of course they proposed more. :roll:, they knew that most of it wouldn't get in. that's politics. but it doesn't change the fact that when we have a republican president we get greater deficits than when we have a democratic president. reagon, bush, bush jr all increased deficits more than carter and clinton.
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Or maybe we've been over this issue a million times here. conjur is wrong. Spending alway has been and always will be what causes deficits. Until we get Federal spending under control we won't have fiscally sound and responsible gov't.
So yeah, ldir, your little "for-against" quip is funny and I chuckled - it doesn't apply to me. Kerry has that distinction and you are quite unoriginal with your attempt at label me. Maybe you should worry about your boy kerry who actually is for and against things instead of me
CkG
ya, but where the republicans have always lied about deficits is: they claim they will cut taxes AND cut spending and yet they have consistently raised spending more than the democrats. THAT'S why we have a deficit.
Umm...the democratic party has proposed more in spending that what actually got into the budget.
of course they proposed more. :roll:, they knew that most of it wouldn't get in. that's politics. but it doesn't change the fact that when we have a republican president we get greater deficits than when we have a democratic president. reagon, bush, bush jr all increased deficits more than carter and clinton.
They cant very well run on fiscal responsability if they want to spend more than what was already passed.
Yours statement is not correct. You should check history and defecits, they have been around reguardless of party. The last time the debt actually contracted was 40 years ago.
you should check your history.
carter left a smaller deficit than reagan, clinton left a smaller deficit than what we have today.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Or maybe we've been over this issue a million times here. conjur is wrong. Spending alway has been and always will be what causes deficits. Until we get Federal spending under control we won't have fiscally sound and responsible gov't.
So yeah, ldir, your little "for-against" quip is funny and I chuckled - it doesn't apply to me. Kerry has that distinction and you are quite unoriginal with your attempt at label me. Maybe you should worry about your boy kerry who actually is for and against things instead of me
CkG
ya, but where the republicans have always lied about deficits is: they claim they will cut taxes AND cut spending and yet they have consistently raised spending more than the democrats. THAT'S why we have a deficit.
Well, you can have your opinion but if you think it's all the Republican's fault you are mistaken. You are also mistaken if you think I don't get pissed at Republicans for spending too
Oh, and does anyone know what percentage of discretionary spending is at now-a-days?The reason we have a deficit is because the Fed gov't has been allowed free reign in the spending dept by the people. Infact some people even demand MORE spending because they think the gov't "owes it to them" or some such nonsense. The gov't isn't supposed to be the answer to every ill people have - but it seems to have turned into that. Hopefully someday people will stop asking what their gov't can do for them and start DOING things for themselves.
I can dream can't I?
CkG
and clintons debts indexed to inflation were larger than the ones we have now.....
carter also left 20% interest rates and unemployment in the teens...happy times..
You might also want to remember who solidly controlled the house and senate during the big spending republican times you talk about...
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Well, you can have your opinion but if you think it's all the Republican's fault you are mistaken. You are also mistaken if you think I don't get pissed at Republicans for spending too
The reason we have a deficit is because the Fed gov't has been allowed free reign in the spending dept by the people. Infact some people even demand MORE spending because they think the gov't "owes it to them" or some such nonsense. The gov't isn't supposed to be the answer to every ill people have - but it seems to have turned into that. Hopefully someday people will stop asking what their gov't can do for them and start DOING things for themselves.
I can dream can't I?
CkG
in theory your correct, democrats do desire to spend more than republicans. the problem comes in where they want to spend money, the natural reluctance (checks and balances) built into giving poor people money are a lot stronger than the natural reluctance to spend money on the military. so when democrats get in power, they reduce military spending and increase social spending, when republicans get in power, they reduce social spending and increase military spending.
guess who ends up spending more.
oh ya, let's blame that all on carter, forgetting completely Nixons DISASTER with price and wage controls just 4 yrs before carter. ya, i'm sure that had NOTHING to do with the state of the economy.
democratically controlled congress came up with Nixons famous Price and Wage controls? puhlease, that was nixons horse and carriage and only he deserves credit for it.
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