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programmers - what happens to them when they get old

B

between

Senior member
I read a comment recently on the "expiration dates" of various careers which pointed out that if you are a judge or politician or doctor, you can continue working well into your 60s and even 70s (and your age will even be regarded as an asset) whereas with a programmer it would be pretty unusual for people to still be programming into their 40s let alone 50s.

Do you think it is possible for a programmer to remain productive into their late 30s, 40s, maybe even 50s?

What happens to programmers who simply don't want to become part of the management team, and prefer to remain technically oriented? Is there something undignified about someone coding into their twilight years?



 
Given the declines in the IT industry due to outsourcing, the business cycles being down since the .COM bubble burst, et. al. I think it is hard enough to have a stable programming career even in your 20s/30s. Given the advances of technology to the point where less engineering / programming is even NEEDED for many business / consumer applications, it looks like a bleak future.
 
My father is in his late 40s and is a computer scientist.

His job security is low (company is close to bankruptcy due to the housing crisis (the company he works for produces goods used in the construction of homes / buildings), compounded by the EPA forcing his company to put in Electrostatic precipitators at their plant and then deciding that the equipment they told them to buy was not good enough after they bought / installed it and now they are having to buy 45+ Million $ worth of more anti-pollution equipment).

His skills: COBOL, C (not C++, just C), SAS, SAP, SQL, BASIC, VB6.

He lives in fear of the next layoff, for they seem to happen every other week. The company also stopped contributing to his pension and freezes his wages every now and then.

I keep telling him that he could quickly get a job using his extensive COBOL skills out of state, but I doubt he would ever want to move even if his company shuts down and he loses his job.
 
I hope a couple of developers in their 40/50s who have decent jobs as developers.

You have to adapt to new technologies or be good at something rare/old. It also helps to really understand an industry and have other talents. Older developers will always retire and leave openings for anybody else who also knows their technology.
 
Originally posted by: QuixoticOne
Given the declines in the IT industry due to outsourcing, the business cycles being down since the .COM bubble burst, et. al. I think it is hard enough to have a stable programming career even in your 20s/30s. Given the advances of technology to the point where less engineering / programming is even NEEDED for many business / consumer applications, it looks like a bleak future.
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I couldn't disagree more. The number of lines of new code required across all sectors continues to grow, and recent economic changes are beginning to make outsourcing a lot less attractive. We'll need a lot more software in the future, not less of it. You can always find sectors where, if you take a very parochial view, the future looks bleak, and perhaps general corporate IT web app development is one of them right now. If people expect to learn the minimum of a given language and framework and then settle down in a cube and punch out forms, they might have less security for awhile. But that doesn't mean that programming overall is in decline. People are needed who understand C++, embedded systems and firmware design/implementation in assembler and C, device driver implementation in C and C++, big database skills never go out of demand, and believe it or not there is going to be a huge demand for skilled COBOL programmers over the next 15-20 years. People need to branch out, but there's work.

To the OP's specific question, it naturally gets tougher to keep up as you get older. When I was young I would get up and program for 12 or 14 hours, every day. I was immersed in it. Now I am in my late forties, with three teenaged kids, and it's tough sometimes to get an unbroken hour of study time. In terms of skill you can certainly stay productive. My brain is no slower and I'll put my algorithm chops up against any youngster. Experience still counts, and in fact I don't meet that many young programmers whom I deem worthy of respect. Used to be every programmer was an expert, and knew the language and system inside out. That was the only way in. You couldn't get some technical degree and walk into a cube. You either had chops, or no chops. The young guys I meet today often can't even use the english language in written form, much less produce good code. My advice to people who want to stay technical as they grow their career is focus on harder stuff. Leave the script slinging to the recent tech school grads. In my case that has lately meant a focus on improving the stability and performance of huge legacy systems written in C and C++. Not everyone is good at it, so it's been a good niche.
 
I think the primary cause of the relatively low average age of programmers is burn-out. Most people I've known who have been "in the business" for many years have burnt out. They'll go back to night school, get their MBA, and get a less technically oriented job, such as an analyst. People burn out, and I'd suspect that those who constantly exercise their brains are likely to burn out more quickly.

I know I'm getting close to that point, and I'm only 23... God I wish I could move into network engineering full time... Being divided between sales, programming, networking, administration, and technical support isn't fun. I'd drop the sales and programming in a heartbeat if I could.
 
Originally posted by: between
Originally posted by: Leros
A programmer should be able to easily adapt to new technologies.
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sure, but does it become harder to adapt to new technologies as you get older?
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No, it doesn't. Especially if it's something you like to do. Education doesn't stop when you graduate; interaction with your peers & betters, industry trade shows & seminars, reading lots of books, online forums / blogs ... information ... if you're interested in it, you can easily "stay afloat."

Not just for programming ... anything. That's why you will hear "Find a career in something you like to do" and not just chase the money. The money will come with the skills & experience.

I'm 53 and work in networking, now doing network quality and chronic diagnostics. I've been doing computer & network related stuff since the Apple II (no network there unless you count Corvus and their disk sharing stuff). I've seen the industry grow from its infancy, and I still *ENJOY* read & bleed experiences and playing in the Lab. I spend literally thousands of dollars a year in books related to networking, programming, computer and micro-controller stuff ...

Find a career that's a hobby and have fun all day ... and you can do it without being a total geek-out.

I'd also add that it's rare to have asuch a specific focus (like being a production line worker; make your welds, turn your screws, 53 cars an hour ....).

If you're going to do programming, then "kick it" with some other discipline (business or science) so that you understand what it is you're supposed to be getting done (versus scripting from a "Needs Analysis" sheet done by some management Bozo(tm).
 
Professors continue to learn new technology, subjects, and ideas well into their deaths. So age has nothing to do with the inability to learn new stuff.
 
Originally posted by: invidia
Professors continue to learn new technology, subjects, and ideas well into their deaths. So age has nothing to do with the inability to learn new stuff.
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Yep, as do any number of scientists, doctors, architects, writers, etc. Read Walter Isaacson's recent biography of Einstein for a compelling picture of how relentlessly he pursued the unified theory right up to his deathbed. The key in my view is whether you are doing something because you love it, or because you thought it would be a decent career. It's hard to keep interest over the years in the latter case, but then it is hard to keep love alive sometimes too 🙂.
 
My dad's a programmer that has aged like wine. Surprisingly enough he is interested in some of the new stuff more than I am, but more than likely the new technologies are manifestations of things introduced years ago, which is why he's really interested in them. But he still gets his feet wet in the new stuff and would beat the pants off me in x86 or any asm anyday.

(For instance he's more interested in ruby than C but he's programmed in C for some 25 years.) This was purely a hobby for him. He didn't take programming classes or major in it.
 
well, companies actually don't update their technology as fast as most people think. I know for fact that many companies, fortune 500's, still uses mainframe for some of their most important business transactions. I've seen programmers with mainframe skills, people in their 50's, with good job security because of that.

Who knows 20 years from now, when everyone moved to better and fancier programming language, you would be in demand with your Java and object oriented stuff to maintain some ancient applications. But still, it's probably smart to try and move up the ladder, or at least build some skill valued by the company you work for, like knowing the business, people behind the application you build and maintain.
 
I would be really amazed to see lots of programmers in their 70's right now. Considering that would mean they started programming in 1960.
I'm 38 right now and my biggest problem is eyesight. All those hours staring at circuit boards as an engineer and now more and more computer screens is really starting to cause me issues. Mentally I don't see age as being a problem.

My dad is 78 this month and while my mom says he isn't all their anymore , he still amazes me at how sharp his mind is. The other day we were going over a grocery receipt where my mom thought she was overcharged. So I was reading off the amounts off the receipt while she was adding them up on a calculator.
My dad had the answer before she did and he was just sitting there watching tv, not really part of our conversation. He worked as a district manager for Winn Dixie grocery stores going from store to store, improving sales,etc, so not a programmer, but just saying that age doesn't mean you lose the ability to do the work.

My dad had to quit work for the same reason lots of other older people do. Their health. My dad lost most of his sight. Otherwise I think he could still do the job.

I think programmers should be more concerned about things like eyesight, carpal tunnel, posture, etc and all the things that long hours in front of a pc bring , not so much losing the mental ability with age.

For example, today I sat here for about 9 hours trying to finish some work, knowing I had not eaten anything today, but some soft drinks and a brownie. I sat here with my head hurting and continuing to work just one more minute, doing one more thing. I think things like that will be my downfall a lot more than losing interest in the work.



 
I don't yet work in programming, but intend to enter the field at a point where I will be 39+ (this is a career change from the mental health field and I should be done with school in a couple years). While I don't know all the nuances of this field, why would someone's productivity be limited by age? People are able to continue learning even at advanced stages of their lives assuming there are no cognitive deficiencies or other organic brain issues. If a programmer of age 30+ is less productive as a result of not embracing new technologies or continue their learning, does that not seem to be the individual's problem rather than a product of age?

As an aside, it is interesting to see the difference of opinion regarding the state of the IT field on this message board as opposed to that on Dice.com. They are much angrier, paranoid and pessimistic over there. I think I'll come here for insights on the industry from here on out.
 
In general, I would say age has nothing to do with programming in general, but I am also cognizant of the fact that as people age, their logical senses slow down. That may have an impact on someone's code, but I guess I won't be convinced until it is proven. Most older folks that I have seen let go were unwilling to learn newer technologies because they have "only so many years before they retire." In the IT field, where everything is project-driven and every project has deadlines, these same folks become more visible when their younger counterparts are putting in 50 hrs/week on average, and at a lower salary, too.

But at the same time, job-hopping is also a norm now - so if you feel that your current employer is going to let you go, you could just job-hop? It is not surprising to see people who have had 10 jobs in the past 15 years.
 
I work for a company with 50-60 programmers... many that have been been 20-30+ years.

A lot of our career programmers are here to support legacy systems. We have a lot of COBOL that needs maintaining, so I don't really consider our older programmers true programmers. They are basically support on something no one else needs to waste the time to learn. We have a few that try to venture out to .Net, but they end up causing more harm than good. There are a select few that can move from language to language, but most are just waiting on retirement.
 
Originally posted by: QuixoticOne
Given the declines in the IT industry due to outsourcing, the business cycles being down since the .COM bubble burst, et. al. I think it is hard enough to have a stable programming career even in your 20s/30s. Given the advances of technology to the point where less engineering / programming is even NEEDED for many business / consumer applications, it looks like a bleak future.
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This touches on a point I discuss now and then with a co-worker (both of us developers): For a long time businesses always assumed what they were doing was original, innovative, and completely unique. Hence the need to hire on a full time staff of developers, and all their supportive infrastructure (QA, deployment, etc). It seems like more often these days companies are starting to realize existing solutions to their problems are already out there, and if they're willing to deal with the drawbacks (non custom solutions) can often save money over hiring a full workforce. Good for companies bottom line, bad for the field of developers when the number of jobs fall.



Originally posted by: EvilManagedCareAs an aside, it is interesting to see the difference of opinion regarding the state of the IT field on this message board as opposed to that on Dice.com. They are much angrier, paranoid and pessimistic over there. I think I'll come here for insights on the industry from here on out.
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The discussion boards on dice are dominated by a few bitter individuals, who seem to set the overall tone of discussion there. Some of what they claim has basis in reality, but some of it is just frustration over job market woes. Take heed of some of the specific issues they point out, but don't take everything they say to heart. 😀
 
Senior people can also go from the coding aspect to the system design aspect.

A good design saves multiple hours of rework and issues with integration between systems.
 
One thing that the multicore era will do: multiply the demand for programmers. The old guys who know the old tricks will continue to be in demand. My two pennies, anyway.
 
Originally posted by: between
Originally posted by: EvilManagedCare
I don't yet work in programming, but intend to enter the field at a point where I will be 39+ (this is a career change from the mental health field and I should be done with school in a couple years).
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I'm intrigued to hear of such a career change in your late 30s... can you explain the factors that motivated you to make this jump? What made you realise you would be happy as a programmer?
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It's a few things. #1, I love computers and want to go to a job where I get to use them to help develop solutions for businesses, or work for a software publishing house, etc. I have loved programming since poking around with the BASIC manual that came with my TI 99/4A. I found I still enjoyed it when completing projects for a few College CS courses recently. It would seem my advanced age (at least in terms of college students' years) I am better able to grasp the concepts presented than I might have when I was an undergrad (way back in the early 90's).

#2: While every job has a certain level of responsibility, I no longer wish to work in a position where I have to play a role in someone's direct mental healthcare. This is a big one. I am lucky in my current position through which I maintain a clinical role, but don't have to get my hands dirty with running therapy sessions.

#3: Economic. Yes, I know I am not guaranteed wealth in the IT industry. However, the opportunity for financial growth in this realm is greater than what my current field offers. The company I currently work for pays well for what I do, but the cap is quite low. And the job is terribly boring. To put things in perspective, what I make now after 10 years in the field is not far off the starting salary for a CS grad. Sure, I could try my hand at opening a private practice and see patients literally back to back 5x per week. Honestly, I don't have the interest. Plus, opening a private practice is a risky venture.

I suppose the possibility looms I may hate working in programming or in some other technical capacity. But as it stands, I could not work in the mental health field until I retire. What I intend to do once done with school is utilize my knowledge of the mental health field, especially managed care, and get a job in the IT department with my current employer, or another health insurance company.
 
I'm almost 30 years old. I started with C, moved to perl, then to asp, then to php, now recently to java. When the next big thing hits and the job requires it I'll move to that. Until I get sick of the whole thing and just become a full time teacher.
 
I disagree to some extent but it depends on the company you work for.

First place I worked, in our office we had 8 developers. I was the youngest and I was hired at $11/hr. The oldest was 68. The age was (roughly) 68, 55,45,35,30,30,25,20.

Second place I worked, they has a policy to only hire interns, unless it was a referral. The age breakout was 40, 35, 30, 28,25,25,25

Third place I worked, the age breakdown was 55,45,40,30,30, 25,25,25

Forth place I worked (where I work now), we have a 60 year old and me, and I'm 32.
 
I think it's a media driven stereotype that there are no old programmers. I have seen from experience that programmers span all ages and are equally successful at what they do.

Another stereotype that I've seen busted is the super-nerdy, overweight, can't communicate worth a damn, lives inside his own head type of programmers. Fortunately, these dinosaurs have long died off.
 
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