Programmer seeking career advice

[DT4K]

I got my BS in CS 1 year ago and I'm working as a VB/SQL Server programmer. What do you tech people think I should be learning? What do you think the most useful skills will be over the next couple of years? I'm thinking about getting into more web / intranet programming. I did ASP and Java in school but haven't really used either since then. I can't decide if I should start learning .net and stick with the Microsoft stuff since that's what I've done the most of, or if I should work on Java, Apache, and Unix skills. Even though I haven't done that much with Java, I'm pretty comfortable with the language and I enjoyed it. The most important thing to me is learning whatever skills will give me the best job opportunities over the next couple of years.

So what do you think?

Oh, and what are your opinions on certs? Are they worth it? If so, which do you think will be the most valuable in the next year?

 

[oLLie]

Good question, bump for an answer!

 

[Ameesh]

It really depends on what you enjoy, i personally like working with MS technologies, if you enjoy working with unix and related go with that. A factor in your choosing might be that MS has more deployments worldwide so it might be easier to get a job working with ms technologies.

on the questions of certs, i'd say dont bother, you have a BS and people will respond more to that then anything else.


Do what you enjoy otherwise your gonna hate your job.

 

[DDCSpeed]

Microsoft is always going to be around for a long time so learning .net technology is not a bad idea. However, it is what you want to do for your life and your money. 1. learn what you want to learn and learn it comfortably or 2. learn what the market needs for the jobs. Personally, I say go with what the market needs because you get more money that way. : ) thats my 1 1/2 cents.

 

[joohang]

<< Do what you enjoy otherwise your gonna hate your job. >>


You heard the man. There is no better piece of advise than this one.

 

[BuckleDownBen]

IMO, language is overrated. Any decent employer will care more about your critical thinking skills and less about what languages you claim to know, because its much easier to teach an employee a language than it is to teach him how to think. However, a decent employer is hard to find. What I would do is to look in the newspaper or online at all the jobs being offerred in the paper in your area and see if one language is a lot more in demand than another. I would recommend that you choose a "modern" language. That is, do not take a job in Clipper or Cobol, if you can help it. I would limit yourself to Java, VB, Dot Net, or C/C++.

There are likely a lot of unemployed Java, VB, C++ programmers right now to compete with for jobs, so maybe you want to look into Dotnet since there are no unemployed Dotnet programmers (yet).

 

[joohang]

<< Oh, and what are your opinions on certs? Are they worth it? If so, which do you think will be the most valuable in the next year? >>


No.

Many certifications usually translate to "more marketable" (in other words, easier for you to leave the company and get a better job) and some company execs don't like that. They also see little business reasons why they should fund/support you to take such certifications.

There will be new certifications out there that will be beneficial for corporations. For example, have an eye on the upcoming Microsoft Solutions Frameworks (MSF) certifications, which teaches you how to effectively follow Best Practices to increase the probability of shipping software successfully. Your companies will likely pay for such certifications also, and I can almost guarantee you that you'll enjoy the stuff you learn (or more like get reminded to follow a lot of common sense) at MSF courses.

 

[DT4K]

<<

<< Do what you enjoy otherwise your gonna hate your job. >>


You heard the man. There is no better piece of advise than this one. >>


To me, programming is programming. It doesn't really matter what the language is. The skills required to be a good programmer are the same, whether it's Java, VB, or C. And once you know how to program, picking up a new language is fairly easy. If I was hiring someone, I would be looking for someone who could build a good application. I wouldn't care about whether they had experience in VB or Java. The problem is that most employers and hiring managers don't seem to agree with this. A lot of job postings are very specific about the number of years you have to have in specific languages to even be considered. That's where I thought a cert might help. If I had a year or two of experience programming VB and was also a Sun Certified Java Programmer, I thought that might help.

Since I enjoy programming in all the languages I have used, I think my decision should be based on what will make it easiest for me to find a job. That's basically what I want to get everyones opinions on. What do you think will be the most in-demand languages/skills in the next year or two?

 

[StageLeft]

If you have the time certs are worth doing. FOr the most part they can't hurt right? I've seen quite a few postings recently that say something like "MCSD preferred".

 

[SagaLore]

You're working SQL now, and you've done ASP? Simple answer. Start learning everything you can about web deisng - graphics, javascript, perl, php, and learn how to integrate SQL with ASP.

And get some experience with .NET.

This will ensure a healthy successfull career for you in the future!

 

[joohang]

<< You're working SQL now, and you've done ASP? Simple answer. Start learning everything you can about web deisng - graphics, javascript, perl, php, and learn how to integrate SQL with ASP.

And get some experience with .NET.

This will ensure a healthy successfull career for you in the future! >>


IMHO, that is not a healthy career path.

I suggest a strong grasp of OOP and n-tier architecture with either .NET or Java (or both).

Web design and client-side scripting is a dying market.

And Perl is suck.

 

[StageLeft]

"web design" is a big time dying market. I scanned through literally hundreds of jobs on monster on Saturday and saw very very few that were only web design (client side scripting and graphics work). The reason is that if you have a major website that needs to be done you can contract in a graphics guy to spend a few weeks with the design and basic layout but the bulk of the work is done by programmers.

 

[joohang]

<< "web design" is a big time dying market. I scanned through literally hundreds of jobs on monster on Saturday and saw very very few that were only web design (client side scripting and graphics work). The reason is that if you have a major website that needs to be done you can contract in a graphics guy to spend a few weeks with the design and basic layout but the bulk of the work is done by programmers. >>


Ditto.

It will be even worse later as it appears to me that Rich Client UI will dominated web-enabled apps in the coming years.

.NET will achieve what ActiveX failed to do.

 

[manly]

In reality, web design is completely different from programming. DHTML developers kinda bridge the gap, but they still lean more towards the design side than the coding side. A few people can successfully do both, but they are rare.

 

[joohang]

<< In reality, web design is completely different from programming. DHTML developers kinda bridge the gap, but they still lean more towards the design side than the coding side. A few people can successfully do both, but they are rare. >>


I'm one of them DHTML junkies. I do crazy things like asynchronously updating pages via XMLHttp and client-side scripting, which just about 100% of the companies out there look at me and say, "Huh? You did what?"

My graphics skills aren't that great though, although I can build some decent stuff. In fact, I used to despise any site that was loaded with useless graphics. I avoided them as much as possible in my designs.

 

[hoihtah]

as for me... i have the skills necessary...
but don't have a work history on either programming or webdesigning..

so i'm going the certificaiton route...
at least that way, i can prove that i have the skill set necessary to get the job done.

 

[SagaLore]

<<

<< You're working SQL now, and you've done ASP? Simple answer. Start learning everything you can about web deisng - graphics, javascript, perl, php, and learn how to integrate SQL with ASP.

And get some experience with .NET.

This will ensure a healthy successfull career for you in the future! >>


IMHO, that is not a healthy career path.

I suggest a strong grasp of OOP and n-tier architecture with either .NET or Java (or both).

Web design and client-side scripting is a dying market.

And Perl is suck. >>



Java "is suck". Nobody is trying to develop anything in Java anymore. After the failed attempt to create a Java based processor, the fad is dying. .NET is the new hype. Web design in itself isn't going to get him anymore, but it will win him some brownie points when his employeer can see what quality of an interface he can build.

I'm a network engineer for a large accounting firm, many of our software are moving to web-base control, many of our databases are increasingly SQL. You learn .NET ASP and interface it with .NET SQL and you WILL be successful.

And this is Intranet stuff I'm talking here - you would either be customizing programs for the company, or working for a company that customizes programs for other companies. I'm not talking about running an e-commerce site. (although that's great experience as well)

 

[StageLeft]

I don't think java is dead yet - I still see a lot of job postings for it - but .NET is defintely more fun! It's going to surely have a great impact and is definitely worth learning.

 

[SagaLore]

<< I don't think java is dead yet - I still see a lot of job postings for it - but .NET is defintely more fun! It's going to surely have a great impact and is definitely worth learning. >>



There are still listings for it 'cause what was already coded needs to be maintained now.

I don't think it helped any that Microsoft stopped supporting Java either.

 

[joohang]

<< Java "is suck". Nobody is trying to develop anything in Java anymore. After the failed attempt to create a Java based processor, the fad is dying. .NET is the new hype. Web design in itself isn't going to get him anymore, but it will win him some brownie points when his employeer can see what quality of an interface he can build. >>


Talk to manly. I won't touch this one.

I get your point on extra brownie points, but why should he learn web design while he could spend his time strengthening his understanding of good practices to build better software?

Also, speaking from experience, I have a very very strong background in web design. It means NOTHING to most employers looking for programmers, though.



<< I'm a network engineer for a large accounting firm, many of our software are moving to web-base control, many of our databases are increasingly SQL. You learn .NET ASP and interface it with .NET SQL and you WILL be successful. >>


Which goes back to my point. He should spend his time learning better architecture so that he learns how to build software that is able to scale very well in companies like the one you work for. Notice that I never dismissed the importance of SQL. I believe that it is important to learn how to build clearly layer-separated n-tier applications, rather than calling database calls directly from the ASP UI layer, which is exactly the way I used to program before and learned to stay away from.

Also, with ASP.NET, the need to understand web design is even less with Web Form controls.



<< And this is Intranet stuff I'm talking here - you would either be customizing programs for the company, or working for a company that customizes programs for other companies. I'm not talking about running an e-commerce site. (although that's great experience as well) >>


Yes, so you are talking about enterprise development. We are in the same book here.

 

[RayH]

How much do you like SQL? It's cross platform so you don't have to worry about it going obsolete.

I think data mining is going to be area to be in.

 

[joohang]

BTW, I am not a fan of Java, but I think that Sun and J2EE, J2ME, etc are here to stay. I don't see them going away any time soon.

And oddly enough, as I study more .NET, I feel intrigued to study J2EE. I should visit Redmond some time soon and attend another "M$-brainwash" session.

 

[BuckleDownBen]

There are more than enough large companies that have decided on using Java as their language to be used for all their programming. These companies won't be switching to MS and they won't be going away any time soon.

Since the poster said he did a lot of SQL, one option would be to become a database administrator. If this doesn't appeal, then n-tier, Enterprise programming is where I think the jobs will be. I agree that Web Design is a dying field, because companies will have Graphic Artists and Enterprise Programmers and there will be little for a Web Designer to do. Also, the days of paying a half a million for a website are over.

As far as certifications go, I personally think they are useless, and so do a lot of other people. There are enough "brain dump" sites that anyone can memorize the answers enough to pass. However, many people that hire programmers, especially in small companies, don't know programming well enough to judge your skills themselves and will be impressed by certification, so it may pay off to have one.

 

[satori]

Something else you might want to look into is programming on embedded systems. I was glancing at the jobs on hotjobs.com and it seemed like 75% of them were looking for guys with experience with embedded systems. Plus, the major embedded RToS guys like VxWorks have evaluation versions of their development suite. So, it'd be easy to just d/l it, whip up a quick program (it's easy... The interface is really similiar to MSVC++) and put down on your resume that you've got experience with it.

 

[joohang]

Very good point, satori.