Question Problem-prone PC could not start after shutdown. Then it did. Would like to avoid same problem in the future.

[VirtualLarry]

I'd be grateful if I could be spared judgements about whether the PC I built 8 years ago was able to impress people at that time.

I really think that he was going along the route of component aging.

If you built a rig out of parts that were sitting in a warehouse for five years, that's just more aging on the mobo caps., etc.

So, in effect, you have a 2010 rig, not a 2015 rig.

if a part lasts 10 years (bathtub failure curve, remember), then one stored in a warehouse for five years after mfg before being sold may only last five more years in the field in service.

IOW, the implication of his comment, regarding component lifespan, is your parts may be at EOL and basically shot, and given the comparatively lack-luster performance (and lack of certain necessary opcodes for modern software), of that era of CPU compared to contemporary parts, it may be better to cut your losses and scrap the entire system.

At the very least, you would have to buy a video card for Win10. Intel cards are not going to work for you in that system, due to lack of ReBAR support.

 

[WilliamM2]

I'd be grateful if I could be spared judgements about whether the PC I built 8 years ago was able to impress people at that time. I'm not into pissing contests.

What I'm after are diagnostic elements about my current mishap (if it's possible to say, naturally). Thank you.

Wasn't being judgmental at all. Just pointing out it iwas 5 years old when purchased, and is 13 years old now. I would not expect it to be reliable.
I might also point out that Windows 10 came out in 2015 as well. Maybe a lesson for the future.

 

[Steltek]

If you want to troubleshoot, swapping the PSU should logically be the first thing you try. It would be for me even if that 5v VSB indicator wasn't flickering. You don't even have to pull everything out of the case to do it - just disconnect the one in the case, connect the PSU lines to one outside the case, and try to start it up to see if that resolves the issue. If it isn't the PSU, I'd strongly suspect that the motherboard is circling the drain....

And, if you are just using it as an office PC or for web browsing and don't care about games, instead of investing any money in the old system you'd be better off just trying to catch a refurbed Dell Optiplex tower on the cheap at DellRefurbished.com when they go on sale. To maximize future use, just make sure you pick up one with an 8th gen or later Intel CPU. For web browsing/office work, they'll run Win10/11 just fine even on integrated graphics.

 

[Terracota]

I really think that he was going along the route of component aging.

If you built a rig out of parts that were sitting in a warehouse for five years, that's just more aging on the mobo caps., etc.

So, in effect, you have a 2010 rig, not a 2015 rig.

if a part lasts 10 years (bathtub failure curve, remember), then one stored in a warehouse for five years after mfg before being sold may only last five more years in the field in service.

IOW, the implication of his comment, regarding component lifespan, is your parts may be at EOL and basically shot, and given the comparatively lack-luster performance (and lack of certain necessary opcodes for modern software), of that era of CPU compared to contemporary parts, it may be better to cut your losses and scrap the entire system.

At the very least, you would have to buy a video card for Win10. Intel cards are not going to work for you in that system, due to lack of ReBAR support.

This assumes :

• Motherboards are made once and for all, and the assembly line is shut down just after the first batch.
• Capacitors start degrading right after having been made, without any voltage being applied.

This strikes me as very unlikely.

Also, what's this about a video card being necessary to upgrade to W10 ? I've looked up the hardware requirements for W10. Did not see anything related to video which was not on my computer. Why do you write about Intel video cards ? I don't have one and I don't need one.

 

[bba-tcg]

Shucks. I was thinking you'd come back to tell us the result of your troubleshooting. Instead it was to debate a few comments that are insignificant to the issue you're experiencing.

Have you done any troubleshooting.

 

[VirtualLarry]

C'Mon OP, at least swap in a test-bench or known-good or new PSU to test. DO NOT re-use modular cables across PSU models/brands, swap the cables out too.

 

[WilliamM2]

This assumes :

• Motherboards are made once and for all, and the assembly line is shut down just after the first batch.
• Capacitors start degrading right after having been made, without any voltage being applied.

Motherboards are usually discontinued in a year or so. If they were still making them in 2015, there would be newer bios updates than 2012. Generally those stop about a year after production ends. That CPU was discontinued well before 2015 in 2012, surprised you could even buy it then.

Capacitors DO start degrading after manufacture, even faster without power applied. Google capacitor shelf life.

Not sure why you are arguing this, if it's 13 years old (it is) or 8 years old, it's still old enough to fail. Same with the power supply

 

[mindless1]

For relatively modern systems, that is true. But there was an era of rigs around the Core2 era or so, in which they needed a functional CMOS battery to effectively POST correctly. There was someone here on AT forums that I personally helped with this issue. They couldn't believe it either.

I recall this also happening with some Asus board(s) either from the late Athlon XP era or early Athlon 64.

 

[mindless1]

Odds are that the PSU, 5VSB capacitor has failed.

Whether you can DIY replace it, and/or want to recap more of the PSU... or just get a new PSU... or whatever.

Pop open the PSU, clean the dust out. Check whether that 5VSB cap is bulging on top. Based on your listed PSU model, that cap might be here: (but any other caps bulging... still same situation, repair or replace)

 

[Shmee]

Odds are that the PSU, 5VSB capacitor has failed.

Whether you can DIY replace it, and/or want to recap more of the PSU... or just get a new PSU... or whatever.

Pop open the PSU, clean the dust out. Check whether that 5VSB cap is bulging on top. Based on your listed PSU model, that cap might be here: (but any other caps bulging... still same situation, repair or replace)

View attachment 85811

I thought repairing PSUs is usually recommended against for safety reasons? They are plenty cheap to replace anyway, especially for a basic one.

 

[mindless1]

^ Those that can, do. I've repaired too many PSU to remember.

The cost... it's gone up! I wouldn't buy anything under $50, versus a few capacitors are ~$5, depending on what you need and volume you buy. I'm always finding things that have cap failures so I have something suitable for most situations, bought in bulk.

The thinking here is, there is little that can go wrong. Capacitors are already on the PCB, and no need to apply power. PSU is not dead, just failing to start system. If no burst capacitors are found, it is up to the discretion of the person doing it, whether they feel comfortable doing more troubleshooting.

If you see a burst capacitor, replace it. Anyone who already has a sufficient soldering iron and ability to pick suitable replacement caps, shouldn't have any trouble doing that.

Those that can't, sure, buy a new PSU, but it seems kind of wasteful to me to add to a landfill, what you can repair instead.

 

[Terracota]

Thanks to all for the advice.

 

[Torn Mind]

If you buy a replacement CMOS battery, buy a Panasonic from the likes of Digikey, Newark, or Mouser(I can't find any Panasonics except for AAs or AAAs at some dollar stores and Ebay sellers probably have counterfeits).

My mom's Toyota fob had a Panasonic from 2007 or earlier. Still read 3.1 volts just a month ago.

The potential points of failure for the totality of symptoms are:
1. PSU(aging is relentless for products in which water is contained within its housing). The VX450 cannot be younger than 13 years as it was discontinued and replaced by the first CX430.
2. Mobo(possible failed caps but sometimes they function even with failed caps)
3. Ram(Patriot is garbage. I think I bought two DDR3 sets of them to try in my old Win8 build and they both were unstable).
4. SSDs(or other NAND products) can read okay in SMART but they have electronically failed to the point of system errors and instability. I had a bad experience with an Ebay'd Toshiba drive used ONLY as a pagefile disk....crashed the system a few times. The other was an SSD in my sister's T430. For whatever reason, the Windows 10 install is now all wonky(the Ebay seller was a shady dude, gave me a bad license but there is a Office 2007 license that hasn't failed). The NVidia driver was causing File Explorer to auto crash on right click. Recovery install (in Polish) for Win 7 Pro and a new BX500 SSD has the system functioning bug free.

While the most recent issues do point to hardware, the mention of the constant need to reimage Windows 7 indicates that there is some massive data corruption going on independent of the power delivery issues, requiring a look into the RAM or SSD for data errors. I would not fault the software; Windows can be just fine at the end of the day.

USB Sticks - Don't buy Team Group products if you're using them for OS installs.

 

[Torn Mind]

^ Those that can, do. I've repaired too many PSU to remember.

The cost... it's gone up! I wouldn't buy anything under $50, versus a few capacitors are ~$5, depending on what you need and volume you buy. I'm always finding things that have cap failures so I have something suitable for most situations, bought in bulk.

The thinking here is, there is little that can go wrong. Capacitors are already on the PCB, and no need to apply power. PSU is not dead, just failing to start system. If no burst capacitors are found, it is up to the discretion of the person doing it, whether they feel comfortable doing more troubleshooting.

If you see a burst capacitor, replace it. Anyone who already has a sufficient soldering iron and ability to pick suitable replacement caps, shouldn't have any trouble doing that.

Those that can't, sure, buy a new PSU, but it seems kind of wasteful to me to add to a landfill, what you can repair instead.

For @Terracota system, I really don't see the need to go beyond the 40 dollar price point for a Thermaltake Smart 430 given that he might also need another system drive to clone his current install and a new-old stock DDR3 RAM to get a fully stable system. It's apparently not some heavy duty machine where the CPU is being hammered all the time and he seems intent on keeping it.

Plus, he doesn't seem like someone who uses soldering irons for a living. The process can be a pain for beginning. The desoldering might not take with the cheap iron that he is likely to buy. There's risk for damaging things.

Depending on his locale, he can look up craigslist for fire sale dumps of DDR3 systems to procure some RAM.

 

[bba-tcg]

Flaky power can certainly cause massive data corruption.

 

[Torn Mind]

Flaky power can certainly cause massive data corruption.

Yes, but the only rail that failed was the 5VSB and the unit is still a Seasonic.
The data issues were occurring before the shutdown issues, and both the RAM and drive are suspect. The second worst type of failure for a SSD is one that appears alive and well but is already broke beyond repair. The worst would be the crash and burn causing data loss.

I know Patriot is sus because I had a 2x8GB set that did cause system flakiness, one that was remedied, moving away from that RAM. Actually, my H77 build start with 2x2, then 2x4, and finally 2x8. Only the Patriot set failed me.

 

[bba-tcg]

We have no way of knowing whether or not the 5VSB rail is the only one with issues. RAM and drive can be suspect or the voltage supplied to either / or can be the issue. Since OP hasn't let us in on anything found, it's purely academic at this point. We don't even know for sure the 5VSB rail is the power-on problem. Although I think it's highly likely, it could be the motherboard itself. Hard to know without feedback from OP.