Presidential War Powers

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Watching the Spielberg movie "Lincoln" again right after doing some reading on Bush 43 got me to thinking about presidential war powers. It seems the Constitution was somewhat vague and certainly deliberately so in the matter, and a lot had to be developed over time through trial and error. The growing pains and associated learning curve on the matter was probably better than a laundry list of original do's and don'ts, right?

Were there times when presidents over-stepped their authority?

Do presidents have a slightly different range of action in a wartime setting?

Do you believe that under our Constitution, as Chief Justice Rehnquist noted, “The laws will… not be silent in time of war, but they will speak with a somewhat different voice?"
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Watching the Spielberg movie "Lincoln" again right after doing some reading on Bush 43 got me to thinking about presidential war powers. It seems the Constitution was somewhat vague and certainly deliberately so in the matter, and a lot had to be developed over time through trial and error. The growing pains and associated learning curve on the matter was probably better than a laundry list of original do's and don'ts, right?

Were there times when presidents over-stepped their authority?

Do presidents have a slightly different range of action in a wartime setting?

Do you believe that under our Constitution, as Chief Justice Rehnquist noted, “The laws will… not be silent in time of war, but they will speak with a somewhat different voice?"

Interesting topic - just today, I was considering a poll on 'do you support the war powers act?' and a discussion of that specific area.

It's a big topic to consider US history - figures like Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson and the controversy over FDR instigating US entry to WWII for political reasons - but a major milestone on the issue is the neocons. People like Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, since the Nixon-Ford era, took a radically new view that the US should basically be an authoritarian rule by the President, and the only real role for Congress was to fund his military.

They pssionately believed it and it is the fundamental theme to their careers to fight for it in our government - and 9/11 provided them the chance to largely implement it.

They viewed the Congressional backlash to Watergate presidential excesses and the Church commission, where congressional committees were set up for oversight of the executive military and covert activities, to be a disaster. They and like-minded people set out to undo as much of it as they could under Reagan - which is where things like Iran-Contra, the illegal funding of Contra terrorists using funds from illegal missile sales to Iran, came from, disdaining the power of Congress to prohibit those things.

When Iran-Contra was investigated by Congress, there was a bi-partisan report condeming it - but Cheney wrote his own "minority dissent" praising Reagan's actions.

The PNAC organization summarizes these views and changes very well in their document making their case for a relatively imperalist policy - something that Rumsfeld and other neocon names you'd recognize pushed in a new US military strategy in 1992 that called for greatly increases US dominance of the world - but which other Republican leaders such as Colin Powell and James Baker killed. The same killed plans were immediately retrieved and passed after 9/11.

There hasn't really been a strong response to the Bush changes yet. Obama has adopted many, making only specific reversals - on torture, secret CIA camps, Guantanamo.

Obama has even strengthened others. Assassination has become a more central tactic to US policy than perhaps ever before.

There's an excellent new book on this, Jeremy Scahill's "Dirty Wars", I recommend it.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
0
War powers are probably ok as long as it's not a false flag operation. The Gulf of Tonkin and Iraqi WMD threats were based on complete bullshit.

Now what about all the ridiculous anti-communist rhetoric and the domino affect? Well, no change to war powers will cure stupidity.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
War powers are probably ok as long as it's not a false flag operation. The Gulf of Tonkin and Iraqi WMD threats were based on complete bullshit.

Now what about all the ridiculous anti-communist rhetoric and the domino affect? Well, no change to war powers will cure stupidity.

Well, how do you suggest we separate 'BS' from 'non-BS'?

LBJ had his military reports that only much later turned out to not look like a trigger for war. Bottom line, running our destroyers around North Vietnamese waters (I mean, definitely international waters) escorting US-trained Souther Vietnamese terrorists in their territory (I mean minding their own business) were pretty much going to result in some conflict.

If it hadn't been WMD, it'd have been something else - they did cite a variety of justifications, they could have manufactured more (give the Kurds some arms and get them to attack Saddam, monitor Saddam's killing his own people in response). To this day I'm not sure the truth of the original Gulf War has come out, where Ambassador Gillespie was sort of asked by Saddam about invading Kuwait and told it not a concern to the US, only to then be used to justify war (completely with lies to Congress about the horror of the invasion, if you remember the Kuwaiti's daughter pretending to be a hospital worker who watched babies taken from incuabtors, reading a script in a campaign of lies created working with an ad agency office headed by Bush's former chief of staff).

These pretenses can be manufactured. If the government HAD used Operation Northwoods, it'd probably have worked - it's a lot fast to demand an immediate response to Castro's attack on the US than it is for anyone to sort out that it was actually a false flag attack.

I've written before about the power of claiming 'the other side started it', even under dubious circumstances or provoked attacks.

This goes all the way back, to the shot heard 'round the world that started our revolutionary war - the incident that started it was that rebellious colonists had a weapons stash that was illegal, British forces came to seize it, rebels learned well in advance and moved the stash, but waited for the British to arrive and shot at them 'defending' themselves from British attack.

Clearly, like most of these triggers for war, not itself a justification for war, just a trigger.

For our war with Mexico where we took half of their territory, our President simply announced the border had changed to hundreds of miles into Mexico and positioned some troops on the new 'border' and waited for Mexican patrols to notice. Four US troops were riding on a patrol when Mexican soldiers saw them and attacked - and bang, we were defending ourselves from Mexican aggression.

'Remember the Alamo', where rebels moved into Mexican territory and created an insurrection against the Mexican government who cracked down on them years earlier didn't hurt.

'Remember Custer' was a rallying cry justifying our slaughter of Native Americans after they defended themselves from an attack force led by George Custer.

We went to war with Spain and took Cuba triggered by a mysterious explosion of our battleship in Cuba, which could have been Spanish sabotage, or false flag, or accident, but in this case, remember the famous claim of a major newspaper publisher that given pictures of the situation, he'd get the nation to go to war:

Frederic Remington, an artist hired by Hearst to provide illustrations to accompany a series of articles on the Cuban Revolution, soon became bored with seemingly peaceful Cuba and wired Hearst on January 1897:

"Everything is quiet. There is no trouble. There will be no war. I wish to return." To which Hearst's reply was: "Please remain. You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war."

Quoting Wikipdia there and following, cause was again manufactured:

The Spanish-American War (April–August 1898) is considered to be both a turning point in the history of propaganda and the beginning of the practice of yellow journalism.

It was the first conflict in which military action was precipitated by media involvement. The war grew out of U.S. interest in a fight for revolution between the Spanish military and citizens of their Cuban colony. American newspapers fanned the flames of interest in the war by fabricating atrocities which justified intervention in a number of Spanish colonies worldwide.

Several forces within the United States were pushing for a war with Spain. Their tactics were wide-ranging and their goal was to engage the opinion of the American people in any way possible. Men such as Isaac Temple, the owner of The New York Journal was involved in a circulation war with Joseph Pulitzer of the New York World and saw the conflict as a way to sell papers. Many newspapers ran articles of a sensationalist nature and sent correspondents to Cuba to cover the war. Correspondents had to evade Spanish Authorities; usually they were unable to get reliable news and relied heavily on informants for their stories. Many stories were derived from second or third hand accounts and were either elaborated, misrepresented or completely fabricated by journalists to enhance their dramatic effect. Theodore Roosevelt, who was the Assistant Secretary of the Navy at this time, wanted to use the conflict both to help heal the wounds still fresh from the American Civil War, and to increase the strength of the US Navy, while simultaneously establishing America as a presence on the world stage. Roosevelt put pressure on the United States Congress to come to the aid of the Cuban people. He emphasized Cuban weakness and femininity to justify America's military intervention.

One last example, not long after when Woodro Wilson reversed his policy against entering WWI and wanted to enter, he hired thousands of people to travel the US giving speeches to build public support, which was against entering the war (a great book about his experiences with this as he wrote propaganda pamphlets and grew concerned about the ability to manipulate public opinion this way in a book that ripped apart the reliability of citizens to form well-based opinions in the face of propraganda that is very relevant today, called 'Public Opinion'). This wasn't entirely successful - many people said we should not enter the war, and over a thousand, including a presidential candidate, Eugene Debs, were jailed for years as a crime for speaking out against our entering.

Every time the public comes to feel it's been duped or entered war wrongly, there's some determination not to get fooled again, which wears off.

It was simpler when there was plenty of time for Congress to meet and decide whether to declare war. Today's global presence can easily trigger events.

There are armies of specialists in how to influence public opinion, planting stories of threats and injustices to build the appetite to 'defend our honor' or whatever.

9/11 was immediately seized as an opportunity to implement two Bush policies the public wouldn't accept before - invading Iraq, and neocon presidential powers agenda.
 
Last edited:

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
Were there times when presidents over-stepped their authority?
Yes, many times. That's an inherent problem with having an executive... 9/11 wasn't really anything new.

You're at the mercy of the executive under the U.S. Constitution... JFK shot down Operation Northwoods, but his immediate successor was totally responsible for the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

That said, the executive power is going to be abused by the most evil men more often than not and it can corrupt ambivalent men.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
War powers are probably ok as long as it's not a false flag operation. The Gulf of Tonkin and Iraqi WMD threats were based on complete bullshit.

The Gulf of Tonkin and Iraqi WMD situations were "complex" but definitely not false flag operations. The first was a convenient excuse to officially escalate our involvement and the second was truly believed by both involved. Bullshit maybe, but not false flags.

Now what about all the ridiculous anti-communist rhetoric and the domino affect? Well, no change to war powers will cure stupidity.

The Truman Doctrine, Containment, and Domino Theory seemed pretty legit at the time and it's a bit shallow to write them off as stupidity. These were not war powers though, just basic presidential policy.

I brought up Lincoln and Bush because both thought they were implementing "war powers" not for dictatorial purposes but to protect and defend the US. The 'questionable' executive actions taken by Lincoln during the Civil War expanded the reach of executive powers during this time. The Civil War affords perhaps the best insight into the difficulties a leader must battle with when immersed in issues of war, power, legality, and morality. Many of Bush's policies were controversial as well and don't seem to be holding up well under historical scrutiny.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Yes, many times. That's an inherent problem with having an executive... 9/11 wasn't really anything new.

You're at the mercy of the executive under the U.S. Constitution... JFK shot down Operation Northwoods, but his immediate successor was totally responsible for the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

That said, the executive power is going to be abused by the most evil men more often than not and it can corrupt ambivalent men.

You realize the US is a sovereign nation that can engage with other nations and wage war when it seems fit? If there is no president, who do you think should execute foreign policy and lead the military?
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Decentralized militia.

lol, a decentralized national government is an oxymoron, and that's what national governments do: Security. At least the Founders were so concerned and convinced the AoC was weak and pathetic they went about setting up a stronger federal government that could actually function as a real government and provide the benefits a government is supposed to bring.

You need to read "The Origins of Political Order." You won't, but you need to. The most successful governments have been strong governments, and it's a myth that strong governments need to be authoritarian. The key is to have a strong government (ie, one that is effective) while adhering to the rule of law and having accountability to the people.... something the US has done relatively well with for close to 225 years.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,245
136
War powers are probably ok as long as it's not a false flag operation. The Gulf of Tonkin and Iraqi WMD threats were based on complete bullshit.

Now what about all the ridiculous anti-communist rhetoric and the domino affect? Well, no change to war powers will cure stupidity.

Point of clarification. Although Gulf of Tonkin and Iraq WMD both involved dishonesty, neither was a "false flag." That is fast becoming a generic term for any type of government deception involving military. It's over used by conspiracy theorists.

Edit: cwjerome already said something similar so I won't belabor it.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,245
136
The War Powers Act is clearly unconstitutional. It professes to supplant the separation of powers and checks and balances in the Constitution. The Constitution makes the executive the "commander-in-chief" of the armed forces, subject to only one check: Congress must declare "war." The WPA purports to require Congressional approval for any use of the military where "hostilities" are involved. To the extent that the word "hostilities" can be construed as broader than "war," - and obviously the intent is to construe it more broadly or the WPA would have no real purpose - it is attempting to alter the Constitutional balance between the two branches with respect to the use of the military.

It is immaterial whether one "supports" the WPA or not because it is clearly unconstitutional. If we want a stronger check on the POTUS' use of the military, we need to amend the Constitution.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
something the US has done relatively well with for close to 225 years.
I disagree because of what FDR did, what LBJ did, what Polk did, Wilson's abuse of exec power, and Lincoln's abuse of exec power. Clinton abused his power as well against Serbia because Congress never declared war.

The key is to have a strong government (ie, one that is effective) while adhering to the rule of law and having accountability to the people....

The executive can't be accountable to the people and the anti-Federalists realized that... the President has become like a king.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
I disagree because of what FDR did, what LBJ did, what Polk did, Wilson's abuse of exec power, and Lincoln's abuse of exec power. Clinton abused his power as well against Serbia because Congress never declared war.

This abuse of power is your opinion. You think taxing a citizen is abuse of power, so how can any reasonable person take your claims seriously?

You realize there does not need to be a state of war for our military to be used?

The executive can't be accountable to the people and the anti-Federalists realized that... the President has become like a king.

Why not? There are laws he must follow and he can be voted out. Mandatory communication between the executive departments and other parts of government help ensure the political accountability of unelected agency decision makers. Explain to me why the president is not accountable.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
You realize there does not need to be a state of war for our military to be used?
I realize that the executive power is necessary to enforce legislation.

This abuse of power is your opinion. You think taxing a citizen is abuse of power, so how can any reasonable person take your claims seriously?
Because FDR used the IRS to audit his political opponents, FDR used an executive order to steal gold and one to imprison Japanese-descended people, LBJ did the gulf of tonkin incident, JFK sent over 1k troops to protect just one person, Truman tried to seize the steel industry, Lincoln shut down hundreds of newspapers, he threatened to arrest the chief justice, the DoJ has too much discretion and power over enforcing anti-trust legislation, etc., etc. Bush's EPA said the water was safe to drink when it wasn't.

There is no way Congress can keep up with even half the stuff the Executive bureaucrats do.

Incidentally, there are many reasonable people who believe that taxation is an abuse of power.
Why not? There are laws he must follow and he can be voted out. Mandatory communication between the executive departments and other parts of government help ensure the political accountability of unelected agency decision makers. Explain to me why the president is not accountable.
Because the people can't see what the head of their govt is doing all the time. People can't ask the President anything at any time and always get an honest straightforward answer.

The President commands the military far away from the people, so the people have limited say in what the military does.

The CIA does covert ops and the people aren't always informed about that.
 
Last edited:

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
I realize that the executive power is necessary to enforce legislation.

Someone has to be Commander in Chief of the military. If you think there should be no national military then we can stop here since there's no point in arguing over something so basic to reality and of such little disagreement.

Because FDR used the IRS to audit his political opponents, FDR used an executive order to steal gold and one to imprison Japanese-descended people, LBJ did the gulf of tonkin incident, JFK sent over 1k troops to protect just one person, Truman tried to seize the steel industry, Lincoln shut down hundreds of newspapers, he threatened to arrest the chief justice, the DoJ has too much discretion and power over enforcing anti-trust legislation, etc., etc. Bush's EPA said the water was safe to drink when it wasn't.

Much of what you consider abuse of power are merely mistakes of judgement or actions you disagree with. Now I'm not arguing that there has never been abuse of power but that comes with the political territory and affects politicians in any branch at any level. If men were angels we wouldn't need government. Ships spring leaks but we don't stop sailing, athletes get hurt but we don't stop sports, CEOs break laws but we don't eliminate business. We put in procedures and institutions to mitigate the negative instead of throwing up our hands and giving up. What kind of Utopia do you think is possible where an executive never ever abuses power in any way?

Because the people can't see what the head of their govt is doing all the time. People can't ask the President anything at any time and always get an honest straightforward answer.

The President commands the military far away from the people, so the people have limited say in what the military does.

The CIA does covert ops and the people aren't always informed about that.

You are right. But this is not a nation of 1000 people, it's 310 million. This is not a mass democracy, it's representative government. You have to operate in reality and not jam a theoretical construct into a world that's not applicable. If you think a person can ask a president anything anytime, or that people should have a say in what the military does, or that the government can't have secrets, well... we will just have to disagree. These are things that don't happen in any modern country, never have, and will not happen now. A discussion on those points is not only unrealistic, it's a complete waste of time.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81

So you admit to arguing in favor of policies that do not exist anywhere in the world today and cannot survive in the world today.

I have suggested this to you before, but I really think you need to move on and embrace reality... give up the strange fantasies and live your life.