President Obama creates a new gun violence Task Force

[sunzt]

How about if your kid has mental issues you don't give him a gun or teach him to shoot? How dumb are people really ? Let's go to the range it will be quality time.

No one really could tell if he had any formal mental issues. He was like many high school loners in the country: quiet, shy, and keeps to oneself. Is that a mental issue?

 

[diesbudt]

Man with knife injures (not kills) 22 children in school
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/14/china-school-stabbings/1770395/

I'd rather face a guy with a knife than a guy with a gun. It's simply less efficient to kill with a knife than a gun, and gives the kids a better chance to survive their wounds or run away.

You can't corner that many people in a room and kill them all at once with a knife. You actually have to physically catch each one and be next to them to kill them. If there are 20 kids and a teacher in a room, it would give most of the kids ample time to run away....

With an assault rifle he wouldn't need to corner anyone and just stand in the doorway.

Sure you can. Barricade the door. Unless they all start jumping out a window, you can force them into a fight or flight situation.

Plus with no gunshots, other classrooms may think its just a party/crazy people going on down the hallway and continue teaching. A gunshot, the whole school goes into defensive mode.

Sure you can kill quicker with a gun, which in it self means more efficient. But the body count can still be the same. Killing wit ha knife is easy. And for reasons I cannot say, I will not post how to easily kill one with a knife without cutting the throat etc.

All a gun does is give the shooter the ability to shoot those running away, and give him a feeling of protection as people cannot retaliate unless they too have a gun or get within arm range. Crazy people would still attack reguardless of the range.

So again. Gun control is a maybe on solving some issues like this. Mental re-education or fixing the mental handicap, would solve issues like these, as they would no longer have an intent to do harm. (Excusing random excessive last second mental snapping rampages, which normally wont have more than 1 gun as they wont be planning a large assualt)

No intent = no on purpose violence
No guns = less violence, or more creative ways to get the same results.

Gun control is a bandaid. Not the cure. You need to cure the "disease" not control the symptoms.

And yes Pr0d1gy, it is funny people are so willing to throw out the constitution after something like this, yet I even think about talking about revising the constitution to have a better understanding what some of those 200+ year old amendments mean, and those same people jump down my throat.

 

[diesbudt]

No one really could tell if he had any formal mental issues. He was like many high school loners in the country: quiet, shy, and keeps to oneself. Is that a mental issue?

Actually it is...

Those are symptoms of many of the forms of anxiety disorder, depression, or any other mentally affecting issues. Which one I cannot say as it is different case by case.

 

[sze5003]

No one really could tell if he had any formal mental issues. He was like many high school loners in the country: quiet, shy, and keeps to oneself. Is that a mental issue?

They said on the news he had mental issues or had some kind of mental problems. Yes, it's hard to figure that out but part of being a parent involves being more involved in what's going on. Anyway, plenty of kids I went to highschool were quiet and shy and later found out they had depression or other issues that turned out worse than just being a quiet person.

 

[sunzt]

Actually it is...

Those are symptoms of many of the forms of anxiety disorder, depression, or any other mentally affecting issues. Which one I cannot say as it is different case by case.

Symptoms doesn't mean there's a disease. Many kids are naturally introverted. It's likely many people on AT probably were quiet, shy, and keeps to oneself at times in school. Unless there's plans to provide mental care to every kid who exhibits these symptoms you can't automatically assume there's something wrong with that kid cause of being introverted.

 

[diesbudt]

Symptoms doesn't mean there's a disease. Many kids are naturally introverted. It's likely many people on AT probably were quiet, shy, and keeps to oneself at times in school. Unless there's plans to provide mental care to every kid who exhibits these symptoms you can't automatically assume there's something wrong with that kid cause of being introverted.

No, but introverted is different than seclusion of one self. Which the background they gave info on pretty much pointed to the latter. And i think they also showed he had another mental issue that doesn't go into this category.

It doesn't help single parent mom, and from what I have heard didn't care too much about him.

 

[rudder]

No one really could tell if he had any formal mental issues. He was like many high school loners in the country: quiet, shy, and keeps to oneself. Is that a mental issue?

http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-lanza-taking-antipsychotic-fanapt-2012-12

 

[sze5003]

There are those that say he wasn't mentally ill because he knew right from wrong and killed himself at the end. You don't have to be diagnosed mentally ill to be mentally unstable in my opinion.

 

[sandorski]

The worst school massacre in US history did not involve guns -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Certainly, but did it not result in the soon Ban on TNT Sales to the Public? How many incidents of it have occurred since?

 

[sandorski]

I find it funny that so many people that proclaim to be Americans are so willing to just toss the Constitution into the trash.

Perhaps they just want a little more "..well regulated..." added?

 

[sunzt]

Sure you can. Barricade the door. Unless they all start jumping out a window, you can force them into a fight or flight situation.

still requires more effort, time, and likelihood to face resistance than using a rifle to mow them down in less than a minute. Still provides much more time and opportunity to escape or notify others.

..other classrooms may think its just a party/crazy people going on down the hallway and continue teaching....

Same thing could be said for gunshots, and not everyone may hear it or interpret it as a gunshot. If a shooter had a silencer then the point is moot. However, i know that with more time there's be a lot more cries for help, banging on walls for help, calls to people that should be enough to notify others in the area.

Sure you can kill quicker with a gun, which in it self means more efficient. But the body count can still be the same. Killing wit ha knife is easy. And for reasons I cannot say, I will not post how to easily kill one with a knife without cutting the throat etc.

A knife still requires more time and being next to the person to kill them. Time is the most important differentiation because it provides opportunity to escape.

All a gun does is give the shooter the ability to shoot those running away, and give him a feeling of protection as people cannot retaliate unless they too have a gun or get within arm range. Crazy people would still attack reguardless of the range.

It's not just range, it's shots (kills) per time unit, and impact of damage all of which improve KILLING efficiency.

So again. Gun control is a maybe on solving some issues like this. Mental re-education or fixing the mental handicap, would solve issues like these, as they would no longer have an intent to do harm. (Excusing random excessive last second mental snapping rampages, which normally wont have more than 1 gun as they wont be planning a large assualt)

No intent = no on purpose violence
No guns = less violence, or more creative ways to get the same results.

Mental illness cannot be always identified. True psychopaths are masters at fitting into the public.

Gun control is a bandaid. Not the cure. You need to cure the "disease" not control the symptoms.

It's better than nothing now, and the bigger cause than mental illness is culture. Fixing the culture takes much more time and effort, but is needed. Gun control shouldn't be tossed away while trying to implement cultural changes.

 

[sunzt]

http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-lanza-taking-antipsychotic-fanapt-2012-12

From your link:

Since the publishing of this article, New York Daily News has removed the reference, the originator of the quote from Lanza's "uncle," because they believed him to be an "imposter."

http://americanlivewire.com/did-connecticut-shooter-adam-lanza-have-aspergers/

As people question did Connecticut shooter Adam Lanza have aspergers, reportedly a relative told investigators that Adam Lanza had a form of autism. However, neither the relative who gave that information nor the cop that told reporters have been named and those facts have yet to be verified.

 

[Olikan]

It's better than nothing now, and the bigger cause than mental illness is culture. Fixing the culture takes much more time and effort, but is needed. Gun control shouldn't be tossed away while trying to implement cultural changes.

it did fixed many problems where it was banned

 

[drebo]

So you're saying if he went in with a kitchen knife just as many would have died? It's legitimate to look at all pieces of the puzzle, while I don't really care here or there with gun control, guns are one of those pieces and gun violence is a fitting term.

No. The point is that even if guns are illegal, it's not going to stop criminals and the mentally insane from getting guns and using them in the same way.

Fix the population and you'll fix the problem.

 

[Incorruptible]

I find it funny that so many people that proclaim to be Americans are so willing to just toss the Constitution into the trash.

You mean people like obama and the democrats and republicans?

 

[rudder]

From your link:


http://americanlivewire.com/did-connecticut-shooter-adam-lanza-have-aspergers/

hmmm http://www.infowars.com/fanapt-hoax-hides-real-connection-between-shooters-and-ssri-drugs/

I guess we will know for sure after an autopsy. But as no doctors have come forward yet... either they are all getting lawyers or a talking with authorities.

 

[diesbudt]

still requires more effort, time, and likelihood to face resistance than using a rifle to mow them down in less than a minute. Still provides much more time and opportunity to escape or notify others.



Same thing could be said for gunshots, and not everyone may hear it or interpret it as a gunshot. If a shooter had a silencer then the point is moot. However, i know that with more time there's be a lot more cries for help, banging on walls for help, calls to people that should be enough to notify others in the area.



A knife still requires more time and being next to the person to kill them. Time is the most important differentiation because it provides opportunity to escape.



It's not just range, it's shots (kills) per time unit, and impact of damage all of which improve KILLING efficiency.



Mental illness cannot be always identified. True psychopaths are masters at fitting into the public.



It's better than nothing now, and the bigger cause than mental illness is culture. Fixing the culture takes much more time and effort, but is needed. Gun control shouldn't be tossed away while trying to implement cultural changes.

And you have very legitimate points. If the banning of X, truly ment X would not be used anymore. But since there is many easy under the table ways to acquire things, even banning every gun type, wouldn't truly reduce the gun population on those that want to/plan to break the law. It more affects those that respect the law i.e. those who are not the ones going to go shoot up a school.

Sure you do not need an assault weapon for protection (I will keep mine as they are WW2 assault weapons my Grandfatehr brought back), and a pistol will do just fine for home protection. But making a law against something when people are already going to break laws means nothing to them.

But yes, changing the way gun control is handled can help, it just won't have near as big an impact as a lot of the public wants to believe. And may even have a negative impact via more law abiding citizens having no guns but those that break the law already do not care and pull out their automatic assault weapons for whatever reason.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Certainly, but did it not result in the soon Ban on TNT Sales to the Public? How many incidents of it have occurred since?

The OKC bombing? Wasn't TNT, but it was still explosives. The point is that people who want to kill will find a way. Until we come to terms that the root cause of all this lies withing the hearts and minds of the perpetrators, people will die. If people valued human life, didn't feel they had the right to other people's property, and we could come to grips with people that have violent tendencies due to mental illness, we wouldn't be in this situation.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

They said on the news he had mental issues or had some kind of mental problems. Yes, it's hard to figure that out but part of being a parent involves being more involved in what's going on. Anyway, plenty of kids I went to highschool were quiet and shy and later found out they had depression or other issues that turned out worse than just being a quiet person.

There have been plenty of stories about how the mother was very active in the boy's life and even iirc retired early to take care of him full time.

dies, I don't think we need to clarify or amend anything in the Constitution or BoR. It states everything in a very clear and concise manner that really isn't open for interpretation.

As for this tragedy, well that is a whole other story. Obviously, we have to find a way to remove the stigma that goes along with mental health. This is a big reason why a lot of people who normally would, or should, seek professional help never do or discontinue going. also, we need to find a way to make it more accessible to those who are struggling financially.

You will notice that it is never Donald Trump or Bill Gates that does this. It is some broke ass lonely kid with nobody to talk to. We need to make it accessible and affordable/free to those people, while also keeping it as private as humanly possible to protect their fragile emotional state.

 

[sunzt]

it did fixed many problems where it was banned

Banning guns for a small area is not effective, but it doesn't mean that banning guns in general is ineffective. I don't support that policy though.

 

[sandorski]

The OKC bombing? Wasn't TNT, but it was still explosives. The point is that people who want to kill will find a way. Until we come to terms that the root cause of all this lies withing the hearts and minds of the perpetrators, people will die. If people valued human life, didn't feel they had the right to other people's property, and we could come to grips with people that have violent tendencies due to mental illness, we wouldn't be in this situation.

...and that resulted in a change to the formulations of Fertilizers to prevent a re-occurrence.

 

[sunzt]

And you have very legitimate points. If the banning of X, truly ment X would not be used anymore. But since there is many easy under the table ways to acquire things, even banning every gun type, wouldn't truly reduce the gun population on those that want to/plan to break the law. It more affects those that respect the law i.e. those who are not the ones going to go shoot up a school.

Sure you do not need an assault weapon for protection (I will keep mine as they are WW2 assault weapons my Grandfatehr brought back), and a pistol will do just fine for home protection. But making a law against something when people are already going to break laws means nothing to them.

But yes, changing the way gun control is handled can help, it just won't have near as big an impact as a lot of the public wants to believe. And may even have a negative impact via more law abiding citizens having no guns but those that break the law already do not care and pull out their automatic assault weapons for whatever reason.

Just because it's won't reduce illegal gun usage 100% doesn't mean that we should not restrict access to them. Why make it easier for them to get a gun? It's like saying we should let everyone have a bomb because we know terrorists will eventually get access to them. We still need to monitor and restrict access to guns so to make it difficult for non-law abiding citizens and the mentally ill to access.

We literally strip screen every passenger going to board a plane to see if they have weapons, but we accept it's not 100% full proof and people have brought guns and bombs aboard planes. However, the access control it makes it much harder to do so and hence reduces their opportunities to kill.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

To be honest i don't think it's the ownership of guns that is the problem, the problem is how guns are stored.

Let's face it, you can privately buy a gun without anyone doing a background check and you'll be fine, file off the serial number and you have an illegal gun that won't be in the statistics of legally purchased arms used in a crime. I'd bet that 99.9% of all firearms used for crimes were once legally purchased in the US.

Meanwhile nations like Switzerland who have about as many guns per capita have other rules, you story your gun safely, disassembled and the active part locked in a safe and they have very low gun violence.

The problem is the availability for criminals and that availability is ONLY there because there are no regulation on how your gun should be stored.

The whole second amendment argument about how you it enables you to take down the government is outdated and in todays world you either have the army on your side in which case the government is gone or you have the army against the people in which case your plinkers won't matter at ALL.

I do agree that guns are fun and great for hunting though.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

...and that resulted in a change to the formulations of Fertilizers to prevent a re-occurrence.

Not really, you can still buy any green grass fertilizer, add diesel and have 50 pounds of ANFO.

50 pounds of ANFO is a LOT.