President Clinton smacks down Fox on Bush era Bin Laden incompetence

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Craig234 with the ownage. I remember much of that tripe from the late 90s, most specifically the wag the dog nonsense. It was so bad that Clinton was being accused of making a "successful businessman" in Bin Laden into a fall guy so we would ignore his indiscretions.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/28/conservatives-fear-center-brain/

Its true. I'm not making it up. Their brains are a form of de-evolution. Not that they believe in evolution

I saw that when it came out and thought it was a rather partisan way to dehumanize another person. Don't get me wrong their bullshit is annoying but this is borderline discriminatory. Righties are easy enough targets by using truth. No need to go there. Besides there's one of these stories on the net every year or so. Show me this if even true is not environmental since they listen to talk radio. Regardless it sounds like shit righties would pull to justify hate.

I am not having it from them and I think the premise is reactionary in nature.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
All you need to know about the essential difference between Bush and Clinton is evident in that interview. Try to imagine Bush - or any other Republican politician, for that matter - attempting to articulate a long series of coherent, cogent, totally-in-command thoughts like Clinton does in that tape.

The right has been so busy playing the propaganda and disinformation game for so long, intelligent thought on their part is just not possible.

Clinton is a very charming and intelligent man, most great con artists are, doesn't change the fact he's FOS.

Clinton and Bush administrations

Scheuer has been critical of the Bush and Clinton administrations for not killing bin Laden, for costly and disastrous policy missteps, and for not taking decisive measures to defend the country. He states that Clinton had eight to ten opportunities to kill bin Laden prior to September 11, and Bush had one opportunity thereafter. Richard A. Clarke and the Clinton administration, according to Scheuer, thwarted the CIA's ambitions to kidnap or kill bin Laden when they had the chance.[26] According to Scheuer,

Clarke's book Against All Enemies is also a crucial complement to the September 11 panel's failure to condemn Mr. Clinton's failure to capture or kill bin Laden on any of the eight to 10 chances afforded by CIA reporting. Mr. Clarke never mentions that President Bush had no chances to kill bin Laden before September 11 and leaves readers with the false impression that he, Mr. Clinton and Mr. Clinton's national security adviser, Sandy Berger, did their best to end the bin Laden threat. That trio, in my view, abetted al Qaeda, and if the September 11 families were smart they would focus on the dereliction of Dick [Clarke], Bill [Clinton] and Sandy [Berger] and not the antics of convicted September 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui.[27]

Of the Bush administration, Scheuer warns against assigning it full responsibility for the nation's troubles since September 11, 2001. Although the "unprovoked attack of Iraq" will forever be remembered as "infamous", as will Dick Cheney's "reptilian contention that Americans who criticize U.S. foreign policy are 'validating the strategy of the terrorists'," according to Scheuer, a "bipartisan governing elite", both Democratic and Republican, is to blame for the nation's woes.[28] (Notwithstanding the bipartisan responsibility, Scheuer comments, "the thought of what history will say about Donald Rumsfeld's tenure at the Department of Defense ought to make his relatives shudder down to their latest generation.")[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer#Clinton_and_Bush_administrations
 
Last edited:

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,119
10,335
136
Clinton is a very charming and intelligent man, most great con artists are, doesn't change the fact he's FOS.
No, "intelligent" and FOS are mutually exclusive. Gotta wonder about you, i.e. I figure you are the latter.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
At least Bush was not boffing every half decent intern, admin and other that walked into or near the white house. You libs should be so proud. What an achievement.

Oh and how about Clinton's botched missle attack on Bin Laden when he had the chance to take out Osama. Another glorious victory for the party, eh Comrade?

thats the best you can do is bing up things that have nothing to do ith the thread topic??
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
What a thorough repeated bitch slapping this was. Grandiose!

I do notice that Fox learned a lesson, and hasn't pursued more interviews with Clinton to 'get him' when this one backfired so badly. Clearly they were watering at the mouth.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Clinton is a very charming and intelligent man, most great con artists are, doesn't change the fact he's FOS.

Actually, Scheuer is full of crap on this, not Clinton.

Clinton is the 'charming, full of crap' guy you mention sometimes.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
68
91
Why didn't Clinton pull the trigger? He was offered ObL head on a platter.

You mean like when he bombed a terrorist training camp when bin The good news is that OBL was there. The bad news is he left 30 minutes prior to the bombing raid.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
You mean like when he bombed a terrorist training camp when bin The good news is that OBL was there. The bad news is he left 30 minutes prior to the bombing raid.

No, that was a wag the dog moment to distract everyone from Monica Lewinsky. Remember?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
So what did Clinton do to catch Bin Ladin? Hide in his closet with an intern?

Nearly all your posts seem to be you telling people you're an idiot.

Why don't you try reading for once before that? Try Richard Clarke's book.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You mean like when he bombed a terrorist training camp when bin The good news is that OBL was there. The bad news is he left 30 minutes prior to the bombing raid.
One of the people responsible for executing that mission stated that they had zero evidence that Bin Laden was ever there, but that he MIGHT have been there as it was a known Al Qaeda training camp. I think that whole thing was for domestic politics, as they also warned the Saudi royal family beforehand as one of the princes commonly hung out there. That ensured we would not get anyone at all useful to us.

I don't think it's quite fair to compare Clinton's failure to get Bin Laden when the Sudan offered him up to the hunt after 9/11 though. Congress had not authorized military force (declared war), so arguably we would have had to prosecute Bin Laden using civilian criminal law. It's not at all clear (to me anyway) that we could have convicted him under those circumstances, and the price of the attempt would have been removing Sudan from our list of state-sponsored terrorists. Certainly in hind sight Clinton should have tried harder, and accepted more compromises, to get him, but that was not at all clear before 9/11. Honestly, no President really took terrorism seriously before 9/11.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
One of the people responsible for executing that mission stated that they had zero evidence that Bin Laden was ever there, but that he MIGHT have been there as it was a known Al Qaeda training camp. I think that whole thing was for domestic politics, as they also warned the Saudi royal family beforehand as one of the princes commonly hung out there. That ensured we would not get anyone at all useful to us.

It was domestic politics that tried to stand in the way of Clinton taking action, trying to erode public support for his actions (73% favored the camp bombings).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/react082198.htm

But Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), one of Clinton's severest critics earlier in the week, said, "There's an obvious issue that will be raised internationally as to whether there is any diversionary motivation." Sen. John D. Ashcroft (R-Mo.), a possible presidential candidate in 2000, noted "there is a cloud over this presidency."

And Sen. Dan Coats (R-Ind.), who called on Clinton to resign after his speech Monday, said: "The president has been consumed with matters regarding his personal life. It raises questions about whether or not he had the time to devote to this issue, or give the kind of judgment that needed to be given to this issue to call for military action."

http://marc.perkel.com/archives/000193.html

"Look at the movie 'Wag the Dog.' I think this has all the elements of that movie," Rep. Jim Gibbons said. "Our reaction to the embassy bombings should be based on sound credible evidence, not a knee-jerk reaction to try to direct public attention away from his personal problems."

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/08/27news.html

Unless the Clinton administration can come up with some hard evidence that bin Laden is in fact calling the shots of a vast new anti-American terrorist network, all the present allegations and faceless intelligence-source leaks claiming facts too secret and explosive to be revealed should be taken with a grain of salt.

It wasn't until Feb of 98 that Bin Laden first called for attacks against the US. In August of 98 they attacked the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya. The CIA had established a station to focus exclusively on Bin Laden in 96, but that was mostly because he was seen as a financier at that point. August of 98 was when Clinton had to give his grand jury testimony.

When Clinton spoke of the camp bombing in his TV address he claimed Bin Laden was "perhaps the preeminent organizer and financier of international terrorism in the world today". At that time he signed a Memoranda of Notification authorizing the CIA to use lethal force to apprehend Bin Laden.

Anti terrorism funding tripled during Clinton's terms. Clinton did act, but you have to keep in perspective the timelines of all these events.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Damn, isn't he a great speaker? Anyways, I was actually reading something related today that I'll repaste a bit of - it's a very long article, but a good one.

The New Republic - The Battle for Tora Bora

The United States appeared to have Al Qaeda on the ropes. But, on the U.S. side, all was not well. A dispute was raging among officials about how to conduct the battle. By late November, Crumpton--a soft-spoken Georgian widely regarded as one of the most effective CIA officers of his generation--feared that bin Laden might try to escape Tora Bora. He explained this to Bush and Cheney personally at the White House and presented satellite imagery showing that the Pakistani military did not have its side of the border covered. CIA Director George Tenet remembers Bush asking Crumpton if the Pakistanis had enough troops to seal the border. “No, sir,” the CIA veteran replied. “No one has enough troops to prevent any possibility of escape in a region like that.” Still, Crumpton thought the United States should try--and that meant more troops would be required.

Back in Kabul, Berntsen was thinking along the same lines. On the evening of December 3, one member of his team, a former Delta Force operator who had gone deep into Tora Bora, came to the Afghan capital to brief Berntsen about the lay of the land. He told Berntsen that taking out Al Qaeda’s hard core would require 800 Rangers, elite soldiers who had gone through the Army’s most rigorous physical training. That night, Berntsen sent a lengthy message to CIA headquarters asking for 800 Rangers to assault the complex of caves where bin Laden and his lieutenants were believed to be hiding, and to block their escape routes. Crumpton says, “I remember the message. I remember talking not only to Gary every day, but to some of his men who were at Tora Bora. Directly. And their request could not have been more direct, more clear, more certain: that we needed U.S. troops there. More men on the ground.”

That bin Laden was at Tora Bora was not, by this point, a secret. The New York Times had reported it on November 25. Four days later, when asked by ABC News whether the Al Qaeda leader was at Tora Bora, Dick Cheney said, “I think he’s probably in that general area.”

Meanwhile, the additional forces that Crumpton and Berntsen were requesting were certainly available. There were around 2,000 U.S. troops in or near the Afghan theater at the time. At the U.S. airbase known as K2 in Uzbekistan were stationed some 1,000 soldiers of the 10th Mountain Division, whose specialty is fighting in harsh terrain. Hundreds of those soldiers had already deployed to Bagram Air Force Base, 40 miles north of Kabul. In addition, 1,200 Marines were stationed at Forward Operating Base Rhino, near Kandahar, from the last week of November onward. Brigadier General James Mattis, the commander of the Marines in the Afghan theater, reportedly asked to send his men into Tora Bora, but his request was turned down. In the end, there were more journalists--about 100, according to Nic Robertson of CNN and Susan Glasser of The Washington Post, who both covered the battle--in and around Tora Bora than there were Western soldiers.

Yet, when Crumpton called General Tommy Franks to ask for more troops, Franks pushed back. The general, who had overall control of the Tora Bora operation, pointed out that the light-footprint approach--U.S. reliance on local proxies--had already succeeded in overthrowing the Taliban, and he argued that it would take time to get more U.S. troops to Tora Bora.

The U.S. force was to remain tiny throughout the battle. On December 7, on-the-ground responsibility for Tora Bora passed from Berntsen to a 37-year-old major in the elite and secretive Delta Force, who would later write a memoir using the pen name Dalton Fury. Under Fury’s command during the battle were 40 Delta operators from the “black” Special Forces, 14 Green Berets from the less secretive “white” Special Forces, six CIA operatives, a few Air Force specialists, including signals operators, and a dozen British commandos from the elite Special Boat Service. They were joined by three main Afghan commanders: beloved patriot Zaman Gamsharik, who had been living in exile in the comfortable environs of Dijon, France, before he returned to Afghanistan as the Taliban fell; beloved patriot Zahir, the 27-year-old son of a Jalalabad warlord; and Ali, the commander who had been helping Berntsen. The Afghan commanders disliked each other more than they did Al Qaeda. “For the most important mission to date in the global war on terror,” Fury later wrote, “our nation was relying on a fractious bunch of AK-47-toting lawless bandits and tribal thugs who were not bound by any recognized rules of warfare.”

Why was the Pentagon so unwilling to send more troops? Recently, I asked Franks to comment on his decision. He reiterated his preference for a light footprint and his concern about the time it would take to put additional troops on the ground. He also said that he could not be sure that bin Laden was at Tora Bora because of “conflicting intelligence” that alternately placed him in Kashmir, around Kandahar, and near the Afghan-Iranian border.

Lt. General Michael DeLong, Franks’s top deputy, recalled in his 2004 memoir that the Pentagon did not want to put many American soldiers on the ground because of a concern that they would be treated like antibodies by the locals. “The mountains of Tora Bora are situated deep in territory controlled by tribes hostile to the United States and any outsiders,” he wrote. “The reality is if we put our troops in there we would inevitably end up fighting Afghan villagers--creating bad will at a sensitive time--which was the last thing we wanted to do.”

There may also have been a reluctance to send soldiers into harm’s way. The Pentagon’s risk aversion is now hard to recall following the years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq and the thousands of American soldiers who have died--but it was quite real. In the most recent U.S. war--the 1999 conflict in Kosovo--not a single American had been killed in combat. And, at that point in the Afghan war, more journalists had died than American soldiers. Fury says that the 14 Green Berets who were on the ground at Tora Bora from the “white” Special Forces were told to “stay well short of even the foothills,” some four kilometers from any action--“pretty much out of harm’s way.” The Green Berets did call in airstrikes but were not allowed to engage in firefights with Al Qaeda because of concerns that the battle would turn into a “meat grinder.”

Then there was Iraq. In late November, Donald Rumsfeld told Franks that Bush “wants us to look for options in Iraq.” Rumsfeld instructed the general to “dust off” the Pentagon’s blueprint for an Iraq invasion and brief him in a week’s time. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Richard Myers would later write, “I realized that one week was not giving Tom and his staff much time to sharpen” the plan. Franks points out in his autobiography that his staff was already working seven days a week, 16-plus hours a day, as the Tora Bora battle was reaching its climax. Although Franks doesn’t say so, it is impossible not to wonder if the labor-intensive planning ordered by his boss for another major war was a distraction from the one he was already fighting.

Franks briefed Rumsfeld and other top Pentagon officials about the war plan for Iraq on December 4. But both men agreed that the plan needed work. Rumsfeld gave Franks and his staff eight days to revise it. “Well, General,” he told Franks, “you have a lot of work ahead of you. Today is Tuesday. Let’s get together again next Wednesday.”

On December 10, American signals-intelligence operators picked up an important intercept from Tora Bora: “Father [bin Laden] is trying to break through the siege line.” This was then communicated to the Delta operators on the ground. Around 4 p.m. that same day, Afghan soldiers said they had bin Laden in their sights, according to the official U.S. military history of the battle. Later that evening, Fury received a new piece of signals intelligence on bin Laden’s whereabouts. The information was so precise that it appeared to pinpoint the Al Qaeda leader’s location to within ten meters. At the time, Fury was in the schoolhouse that he had been using as a base. About 15 minutes later, he received another bit of intelligence--somewhat less precise--placing bin Laden two kilometers from the first location. To this day, Fury doesn’t know which information was more recent and therefore more accurate, but he drove into the foothills and got to within about 1,900 meters of the first location.

Fury now found himself in a quandary. This was almost certainly the closest to bin Laden’s position U.S. forces had ever been, but, at the same time, three of his men were pinned down in a ferocious firefight with some Al Qaeda foot soldiers. And, as dusk fell, Fury’s key Afghan ally, Hazarat Ali, had retreated from the battlefield back home to break his Ramadan fast. Fury was under explicit orders not to take the lead in the battle and only to act in a supporting role for the hundreds of Afghans in Hazarat Ali’s ragtag army. Now, he had no Afghan allies to guide him at night into the craggy moonscape of upper Tora Bora. Fury reluctantly made the decision to bail on that night’s mission.

Muhammad Musa, who commanded 600 Afghan soldiers at Tora Bora, later said that he was not impressed by the U.S. forces on the ground. “[They] were not involved in the fighting,” he said. “There were six American soldiers with us, U.S. Special Forces. They coordinated the air strikes. ... My personal view is, if they had blocked the way out to Pakistan, Al Qaeda would not have had a way to escape. The Americans were my guests here, but they didn’t know about fighting.”

In fact, the five dozen or so Americans on the ground at Tora Bora fought well. There were just far too few of them to cordon off a huge, mountainous area and prevent Al Qaeda from escaping into Pakistan.