President Bush Plans to Let Religious groups get Building aid for Religious Structures

justint

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The New York Times Sponsored by Starbucks
January 23, 2003
Bush Plans to Let Religious Groups Get Building Aid
By ERIC LICHTBLAU

WASHINGTON, Jan. 22 ? The Bush administration plans to allow religious groups for the first time to use federal housing money to help build centers where religious worship is held, as long as part of the building is also used for social services.

The policy shift, which was made in a rule that the Department of Housing and Urban Development proposed this month, significantly expands the administration's contentious religion-based initiative.

The White House says it wants to end discrimination against religious groups. Opponents say the policy breaches the separation of church and state.

Current regulations generally prohibit religious groups from using federal housing and community development grants, which totaled $7.7 billion last year, to build or rehabilitate structures. The new rules, still subject to final approval by housing officials, allow the use of federal aid to acquire, rehabilitate or build centers used for religious and specifically approved nonreligious activities, so long as no federal money is used for the religious section.

A church could erect a building using federal money to create a shelter for the homeless in one part and private money to create a sanctuary in another part, officials said. A synagogue could use a grant to rehabilitate part of its building for a counseling center for AIDS patients or the poor. A Muslim group could apply for federal money to upgrade the lighting and equipment in a room in its mosque to allow it to be used as an counseling center for single parents.

Bush administration officials, who have made religion-based initiatives a cornerstone of their agenda, said that religious organizations had historically been discriminated against in the fierce competition for federal grants and that the change was simply intended to level the field to compete for the pool of money.

"We see no reason to exclude religious organizations from participation in these programs if there can be a reasonable mechanism to ensure that a program has no particular religious connotation one way or another," the general counsel of the housing department, Richard A. Hauser, said in an interview. "There's no reason you can't have a cathedral upstairs and something that would look like any other room in the basement" for counseling.

Civil rights advocates, legal experts and Congressional critics attacked the change. They said it moved the government dangerously close to financing the building of houses of worship in violation of the separation of church and state.

"This is probably the most clearly unconstitutional aspect of the White House's faith-based initiative that we've seen up to this point," said Christopher Anders, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. "What this does is take federal money that is serving the neediest of the needy in our society and diverts it to the bricks-and-mortar construction of churches and sanctuaries and other places of worship."

Opponents said the change forced the government into the difficult position of having to determine which part of a building is used for worship and which is for social services.

"You run into the nightmarish problem of having the government monitor what goes on inside churches" and sanctuaries, said Representative Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts, who promised to seek hearings on the change. "Are we going to start sending in the inspector general to charge people with committing a bar mitzvah?"

A spokeswoman for the housing department, Diane Tomb, said the proposed change grew out of misinterpretations of past policy that effectively blocked religious groups from access to housing programs.

In a New York City case, Ms. Tomb said, a religious group was wrongfully blocked from activities in a common area of a publicly financed housing project. "That's discrimination," she said.

President Bush made headlines in a speech on Dec. 12 when he bypassed Congress and issued an executive order to make it easier for religious groups to receive federal money for welfare programs.

Like most of the debate in the two-year push for initiatives that involve religious groups, the order focuses on the social services that many groups rely on the government to pay for. In the change, released on Jan. 6 without fanfare, officials proposed a potentially far-reaching shift that centers not on services but on how buildings run by religious groups are financed and built.

The rules have consistently banned grants for buildings with any religious component, officials said. The current regulations for one popular home investment program, for instance, ban grants to "primarily religious organizations" and say housing projects "must be used exclusively" for secular activities.

The new regulations set up a system for programs at mixed-use sites "where a structure is used for both eligible and inherently religious activities." The change does not spell out how the proportion would be formulated. Officials said that would have to be determined case by case.

The public has until March 7 to comment before the department is scheduled to issue its final approval. The change would apply to all HUD grants, including programs for economic development in low-income areas, emergency shelters and housing aid for single-parent families, young people and AIDS cases.

Many funds like the widely used community development block grants are sent through cities, which give them to local groups. Other funds go directly to private providers.

Advocates for religious groups applauded the shift, saying it sends a message of inclusion and predicting that it will open financing avenues that had been closed to many groups.

"This should be a welcome step," said the Rev. Eugene F. Rivers III, president of the National 10-Point Leadership Foundation, a coalition of groups that represents primarily black churches. "It's entirely reasonable."

Some civil rights advocates and Congressional critics promised to fight the change. Several legal experts said the new policy might not pass muster under a 1971 Supreme Court case, Tilton v. Richardson, that restricted aid to religious institutions.

"The question is whether you can legitimately allocate, say, 80 percent of a building for religious use and 20 percent for secular use and say that the federal money is only paying for the secular use," said Douglas Laycock, a professor and religious liberties specialist at the University of Texas Law School. "The answer to the allocation question right now in the courts is no, you can't do it."

A professor at the Cardozo Law School, Marci Hamilton, said that it might be difficult for government lawyers to argue that they can truly separate a religious and social functions in a building and that many religious groups might not even want to try to do so.

"Once religious entities start arguing that any portion of their building is for nonreligious purposes," Professor Hamilton said, "they start opening themselves up to all sorts of problems like their tax-exempt status as religious institutions. It's a whole Pandora's box."

Billy Terry, who oversees religious issues for the National Congress for Community Economic Development, said that the change sent "an important message, and it denotes the tenor of this administration."

Although many religion-based groups do a good job of distinguishing between religious and social service components, Mr. Terry said, separating them can prove messy.

"It's like trying to take the sugar out of cupcakes," he said. "The line can get blurred."

Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company | Permissions | Privacy Policy
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
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Even informed religious leaders don't think mixing government and religion is a good idea. History shows what a bad idea this is.
 

sean2002

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: axiom
What can non-religious social services do that religious social services cannot do?

Exactally. It's just another way for the left to make noise
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: axiom
What can non-religious social services do that religious social services cannot do?
Help others without promoting any religious dogma. I think that we should strip all Religious Orgs from their tax exempt status.

 

Queasy

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Aug 24, 2001
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They're not exactly going to be building churches, temples, or synagogues with this money. The federal money going is only to be used to help build structures used for counseling (such as parental or AIDS), homeless shelters, etc. This is no different than giving Planned Parenthood and other such organizations money for community outreach services.

Current regulations generally prohibit religious groups from using federal housing and community development grants, which totaled $7.7 billion last year, to build or rehabilitate structures. The new rules, still subject to final approval by housing officials, allow the use of federal aid to acquire, rehabilitate or build centers used for religious and specifically approved nonreligious activities, so long as no federal money is used for the religious section.

Definitely controversial but the money is open to all religions not just Christian based churches. Makes you wonder what they'll do when the Raellians or the Scientologists come to apply for grants. :)
 

Toasthead

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Aug 27, 2001
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I think this is fine as long it is open to all organized religions. The issue comes when certain religions are favored.

--Toast
 

yellowperil

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Jan 17, 2000
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This is worse than the giving of money to religious charities idea. At least with religious charities one could make the argument that social services is the main priority. Here the gov't is practically building churches for them.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
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Thing is, this is an inroad to a place we shouldn't go. It won't stop there.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
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The system we have now is good. OTOH, entitling payment of more funds means raising taxes--where do you think the money will come from; it's not like the gov't has too much money and needs to get rid of it somehow.

The system we have now is good b/c that additional tax you would be paying for the Bush plan is instead spent by YOU to give to the social service charity or church that YOU believe should get it. It's totally individual now where each taxpayer can determine where their contribution goes, and that's great; no argueing over who should or shouldn't get funds.
 

Queasy

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Aug 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: yellowperil
This is worse than the giving of money to religious charities idea. At least with religious charities one could make the argument that social services is the main priority. Here the gov't is practically building churches for them.

Where does it say the gov't will be building churches?

Current regulations generally prohibit religious groups from using federal housing and community development grants, which totaled $7.7 billion last year, to build or rehabilitate structures. The new rules, still subject to final approval by housing officials, allow the use of federal aid to acquire, rehabilitate or build centers used for religious and specifically approved nonreligious activities, so long as no federal money is used for the religious section.

That means no pulpit, no pews, no holy water, no prayer mats, no temple, no synagogue, no church. The money is only to be used on outlying structures used to community service. Will this free up money for the church to invest back into the religious structure? Yeah, but it will also enhance and encourage churches to be more active in the communities and help the people who need help.

Again, controversial, but it is open to all religions not just Christian organizations/churches.
 

SnapIT

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Jul 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: yellowperil
This is worse than the giving of money to religious charities idea. At least with religious charities one could make the argument that social services is the main priority. Here the gov't is practically building churches for them.

Where does it say the gov't will be building churches?

Current regulations generally prohibit religious groups from using federal housing and community development grants, which totaled $7.7 billion last year, to build or rehabilitate structures. The new rules, still subject to final approval by housing officials, allow the use of federal aid to acquire, rehabilitate or build centers used for religious and specifically approved nonreligious activities, so long as no federal money is used for the religious section.

That means no pulpit, no pews, no holy water, no prayer mats, no temple, no synagogue, no church. The money is only to be used on outlying structures used to community service. Will this free up money for the church to invest back into the religious structure? Yeah, but it will also enhance and encourage churches to be more active in the communities and help the people who need help.

Again, controversial, but it is open to all religions not just Christian organizations/churches.


How about satanism?
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
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Originally posted by: db
Think: "Taliban".

Don't worry, Dubbya won't let any darkies have money.
rolleye.gif
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: axiom
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: axiom What can non-religious social services do that religious social services cannot do?
Help others without promoting any religious dogma. I think that we should strip all Religious Orgs from their tax exempt status.
Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked. sheltering the homeless: what do any of these services have to do with Religion? .
Nothing until you get religious groups involved.

Your answer summarizes the exact motive for what is wrong in the world.
Just because you say so without any proof to back it up doesn't make it so. In fact I'd venture to say that much of what's wrong in this world is caused by religious doctrine and radicalism.

Your motive...kill religion through such erroneous statements that relgious social services cannot act independantly of their faith
Wow I didn't realize I was so diabolical. Hmm I don?t think I am. You on the other hand are hysterical which is a common trait among Martyrs and Drones
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: SnapIT
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: yellowperil
This is worse than the giving of money to religious charities idea. At least with religious charities one could make the argument that social services is the main priority. Here the gov't is practically building churches for them.

Where does it say the gov't will be building churches?

Current regulations generally prohibit religious groups from using federal housing and community development grants, which totaled $7.7 billion last year, to build or rehabilitate structures. The new rules, still subject to final approval by housing officials, allow the use of federal aid to acquire, rehabilitate or build centers used for religious and specifically approved nonreligious activities, so long as no federal money is used for the religious section.

That means no pulpit, no pews, no holy water, no prayer mats, no temple, no synagogue, no church. The money is only to be used on outlying structures used to community service. Will this free up money for the church to invest back into the religious structure? Yeah, but it will also enhance and encourage churches to be more active in the communities and help the people who need help.

Again, controversial, but it is open to all religions not just Christian organizations/churches.


How about satanism?

I don't know all the rules regarding the grants but I imagine if it is a recognized organized religion and they are going to use the money for some sort of community outreach program then I would imagine they qualify. Like I said in a previous post, open to all so it will be funny to see reactions when the Raellians and Scientologists come looking for grants.

The important thing is that the government is not promoting one religion over the other (thus, no worries about a state sponsored religion).
 

yellowperil

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Jan 17, 2000
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Where does it say the gov't will be building churches?

It doesn't say it outright, but it does say the buildings can also be used for worship services as long as it's used for social services as well. To me there is no little or trivial distinction between one of these federally-funded buildings and a 'regular' church building.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
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Originally posted by: axiom
Originally posted by: db
Thing is, this is an inroad to a place we shouldn't go. It won't stop there.
Elaborate. If something isn't to stop here, it must be going somewhere. Where might it be going?

Once you penetrate the wall of seperation, it is a step by step process to more and more entitlement until religion is so mixed with gov't that it's used as the determiner for how the country is run and what the laws should be, who and why we go to war ("infidels"), how people should be punished, and it only gets much worse from there.
Like I said, think TALIBAN. Or crusades. It isn't right to force behavior or law on people b/c of a religious belief/bias. And if my religion is not your religion, than one of them is a bias or is wrong in the other's eyes. And what about those who choose not to have a religion?

Are you thinking for yourself, or playing for your team?
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: yellowperil
Where does it say the gov't will be building churches?

It doesn't say it outright, but it does say the buildings can also be used for worship services as long as it's used for social services as well. To me there is no little or trivial distinction between one of these federally-funded buildings and a 'regular' church building.

A church could erect a building using federal money to create a shelter for the homeless in one part and private money to create a sanctuary in another part, officials said. A synagogue could use a grant to rehabilitate part of its building for a counseling center for AIDS patients or the poor. A Muslim group could apply for federal money to upgrade the lighting and equipment in a room in its mosque to allow it to be used as an counseling center for single parents.

According to the above, the grant money could be used only on the parts of the building that are used for community services. Private money would have to be used on the rest.

 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: SnapIT
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: yellowperil
This is worse than the giving of money to religious charities idea. At least with religious charities one could make the argument that social services is the main priority. Here the gov't is practically building churches for them.

Where does it say the gov't will be building churches?

Current regulations generally prohibit religious groups from using federal housing and community development grants, which totaled $7.7 billion last year, to build or rehabilitate structures. The new rules, still subject to final approval by housing officials, allow the use of federal aid to acquire, rehabilitate or build centers used for religious and specifically approved nonreligious activities, so long as no federal money is used for the religious section.

That means no pulpit, no pews, no holy water, no prayer mats, no temple, no synagogue, no church. The money is only to be used on outlying structures used to community service. Will this free up money for the church to invest back into the religious structure? Yeah, but it will also enhance and encourage churches to be more active in the communities and help the people who need help.

Again, controversial, but it is open to all religions not just Christian organizations/churches.


How about satanism?

I don't know all the rules regarding the grants but I imagine if it is a recognized organized religion and they are going to use the money for some sort of community outreach program then I would imagine they qualify. Like I said in a previous post, open to all so it will be funny to see reactions when the Raellians and Scientologists come looking for grants.

The important thing is that the government is not promoting one religion over the other (thus, no worries about a state sponsored religion).

I agree that is the most important thing if the regulations are changed... but it would also mean that all religions are state sponsored, including scientology... hmmm... isn't THAT a scary thought?
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
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Originally posted by: db
Originally posted by: axiom
Originally posted by: db
Thing is, this is an inroad to a place we shouldn't go. It won't stop there.
Elaborate. If something isn't to stop here, it must be going somewhere. Where might it be going?

Once you penetrate the wall of seperation, it is a step by step process to more and more entitlement until religion is so mixed with gov't that it's used as the determiner for how the country is run and what the laws should be, who and why we go to war ("infidels"), how people should be punished, and it only gets much worse from there.
Like I said, think TALIBAN. Or crusades. It isn't right to force behavior or law on people b/c of a religious belief/bias. And if my religion is not your religion, than one of them is a bias or is wrong in the other's eyes. And what about those who choose not to have a religion?

Are you thinking for yourself, or playing for your team?

I would agree with this argument if the money was to be used only for Christian churches, or only for Jewish Synagogues, or only for Muslim Mosques. However, the grants are available to ALL religions so there is no creation or a state sponsored religion. They're not forcing religion down anybody's throat. Just recognizing that churches/synagogues/mosques/etc can have a strong influence for good in communities that need help.
 

ThisIsMatt

Banned
Aug 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: axiom
What can non-religious social services do that religious social services cannot do?
Help others without promoting any religious dogma. I think that we should strip all Religious Orgs from their tax exempt status.
<insert typical liberal response here>But that would violate separation of church and state!</insertion>

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: axiom
Red Dawn: You don't have to exclude religion to solve a problem. The social services are in place to support people in need. I'll ask again. What does relgion have to do with feeding the hungry, etc etc?

The answer is nothing. These groups are all doing the same thing. You cannot exclude relgious groups from funding solely because they have backgrounds in faith. The Constitution says that the government cannot show favoritism in recognizing one religion over another. It does not say that church and state are separate.
Giving these Religious groups money will be promoting their religion.

 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
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Originally posted by: axiom
db: but the current policy still gives funds to alleged secular social services. How about the government not support these groups as well and we leave it entirely up to the tax payers. This way they can give their money to the group they want to. I believe Bush's point is not to favor one group over another simply due to the lack of a religious presence.

Are you saying that secular social services is a group? Isn't that like saying anybody who is not a Raiders fan is of a singular group with a purpose?