Tweak155
Lifer
- Sep 23, 2003
- 11,449
- 264
- 126
Oh, sorry. I jumped in on someone else's argument and missed that part of it. A mistake I'm sure I'll do again...
Ignore me for this one
Oh, sorry. I jumped in on someone else's argument and missed that part of it. A mistake I'm sure I'll do again...
Ignore me for this one
I'm not sure on the Windows part. That may be the way to go. But isn't Sony using some flavor of DirectX in PS4? I'm not sure how they'd implement or the legalities of that.
No, they wont be able to and they wont want to. DirectX is proprietary, meaning only MS has access to the source code for it.
Sony might use OpenGL, but I remember hearing that they had a custom API that they used for the PS3. They might do something similar here.
They cant use anything GPL'd, which includes the Linux kernel, otherwise they will have to open source pretty much the entire OS.
I always thought like you said, DX was completely under Microsoft's control, but I'd read things lately that made me think otherwise.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/...4s-hardware-power-controller-features-at-gdc/
I'm not saying they're using defacto DirectX, but they seem to be utilizing it or parts of it in some ways.
cmdrdredd
Lifer
- Dec 12, 2001
- 27,052
- 357
- 126
You can build a custom API that uses a similar feature set. You just can't use the actual API you base off of.
It is completely and utterly 100% under Microsoft's control. Have no doubt of that.
All that means is that Sony's software aims to provide the same features as DX11.1. That is all. Its like saying your new car aims to meet EPA regulations. That doesnt mean you control EPA regulations.
jhbball
Platinum Member
- Mar 20, 2002
- 2,917
- 23
- 81
I'll be buying both consoles. The DRM doesn't really bother me, TBH. I'll just modify my buying habits to match how I buy games on steam: wait a couple months, get the game I want for 10-20 dollars (skip the resale part of the equation all together). Also, am I the only one who doesn't want a bunch of physical media lying around?
Midwayman
Diamond Member
- Jan 28, 2000
- 5,723
- 325
- 126
Not at all. The whole discless aspect of it is really neat for me. Especially the family sharing.
Well, in any case, I'd imagine it makes porting the software back to native DirectX much simpler. And it could also be an avenue for someone like Valve to use something other than Windows.
ImpulsE69
Lifer
- Jan 8, 2010
- 14,946
- 1,077
- 126
I think a bunch of you are missing the reasons people are against this. There are good things about what they are doing, they are just going about it in the most anti-consumer manner. This is why people are lashing back. MS is used to getting it's way and being anti-competitive and anti-consumer and this just rolls right along with their norm. What they didn't count on is the very fickle and vocal gaming community.
Sony can implement the DirectX API without using any of Microsoft's source code.
An API is just a list of functions and what they do.
MS can change that API next week for DX 12 or DX One in ways to mess with Sony, but the DX 11 API would still be DX 11 and would still need to stay the same for all of the existing games out there.
MS might have patents on how bits are implemented in their code, that Sony might need to work around. Even there, MS and Sony might have cross-licensed the patents that apply.
Companies are usually wary about implementing someone else's closed API, but it should be OK for a console where the behavior is mostly frozen at launch.
An API is just a list of functions and what they do.
MS can change that API next week for DX 12 or DX One in ways to mess with Sony, but the DX 11 API would still be DX 11 and would still need to stay the same for all of the existing games out there.
MS might have patents on how bits are implemented in their code, that Sony might need to work around. Even there, MS and Sony might have cross-licensed the patents that apply.
Companies are usually wary about implementing someone else's closed API, but it should be OK for a console where the behavior is mostly frozen at launch.
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Any predictions on how many stars the Xbone will get on their Amazon review page when it's released?
So... when Sony goes all digital with the PS5 or PS6, what rules do you think they will be using? You can share your digital game with anyone? Serious question, I really want to know the answer.
Is Microsoft's mistake implementing DRM or forcing the future too early? Besides music, no other industry has first-run content DRM-free. Are you against buying smartphone apps (which can't be resold)?
I just feel like Microsoft is taking the shit now, when it's clear at some point in the next 10-20 years Sony will have to implement the same system as well (just like paying for online multiplayer, servers are not free). The typical counter argument of "I want cheap games" leads to people asking the silliest of questions to Major Nelson "Are you going to have Steam-like sales?" to which I shake my head. Who on earth pre-announces sales several months in advance? Steam sure as hell doesn't do it.
cmdrdredd
Lifer
- Dec 12, 2001
- 27,052
- 357
- 126
So... when Sony goes all digital with the PS5 or PS6, what rules do you think they will be using? You can share your digital game with anyone? Serious question, I really want to know the answer.
Is Microsoft's mistake implementing DRM or forcing the future too early? Besides music, no other industry has first-run content DRM-free. Are you against buying smartphone apps (which can't be resold)?
I just feel like Microsoft is taking the shit now, when it's clear at some point in the next 10-20 years Sony will have to implement the same system as well (just like paying for online multiplayer, servers are not free). The typical counter argument of "I want cheap games" leads to people asking the silliest of questions to Major Nelson "Are you going to have Steam-like sales?" to which I shake my head. Who on earth pre-announces sales several months in advance? Steam sure as hell doesn't do it.
Why don't you ask them? Microsoft is the one who is being Nazi.
Steam is all digital, and it's bigger than Xbox Live. Part of that is because they have sales every summer and such.
What most people here forget is that there's a shit ton of gamers out there like me who want the disk. Who want to load the shelf with their collection, who want the box with the artwork, who want the actual physical copy and also want to know that down the road when the current systems are dead, 10-15 years from now that we can put that disk in a console and play it. If you have a copy of Zelda for NES you can still play it in an NES, if you have Streets of Rage for Genesis you can still put it in a Genesis system and play it, PSone games, Saturn games, Dreamcast games, PS2 games...you can play them in any system that is from the same region as the game you have. With digital only, and all kinds of arbitrary DRM methods, someone else can decide one day to just shut you out and you can never play that game again. What if 10 years from now you want to go back and play Halo but Microsoft decided nobody needs to play it anymore because they shut off the server that authenticates your game?
That is what the problem is. There's no offline mode at all. Steam has offline mode even.
As for pre-announcing sales. Everyone knows about steam summer sales and the general sales they do year round. It pops up on the first page when you start steam for crying out loud.
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Natural transition != Forced transition.So... when Sony goes all digital with the PS5 or PS6, what rules do you think they will be using? You can share your digital game with anyone? Serious question, I really want to know the answer.
Is Microsoft's mistake implementing DRM or forcing the future too early? Besides music, no other industry has first-run content DRM-free. Are you against buying smartphone apps (which can't be resold)?
I just feel like Microsoft is taking the shit now, when it's clear at some point in the next 10-20 years Sony will have to implement the same system as well (just like paying for online multiplayer, servers are not free). The typical counter argument of "I want cheap games" leads to people asking the silliest of questions to Major Nelson "Are you going to have Steam-like sales?" to which I shake my head. Who on earth pre-announces sales several months in advance? Steam sure as hell doesn't do it.
What we are seeing here is MS taking everyone on their console into going digital whether they want it or not.
KaOTiK
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2001
- 10,877
- 8
- 81
One thing a lot of people forget wanting to compare the X1 with Steam (besides all the normal stuff like prices and such) is that MS can't be trusted. They are a scummy company that would whore out their own grandmother if it got them what they wanted. I do not trust them one bit, I can see them after like 12 years of the X1 being out and their new X2 has been on the market for a few years they shut down the servers for X1, they did it for the original Xbox and you know the amount of resources that were used to keep those servers were miniscule to the ones that will be needed for the X1.
MS as a publicly traded company has no one but its shareholders to make happy. MS has a terrible track record with their customers in general and have no problem killing off a product.
At least with Steam, Valve does show they give a fuck. They are privately owned and answer to no one but themselves. People trust Valve and Steam because they don't bend them over any chance they get whispering into your ear, just let it happen, it will be over soon. Valve's track record speaks for itself, they have shown they care about their community and support it. Are they perfect? Hell no, no company is, but have we found an acceptable middle ground with them where both sides are very happy? Yes.
I can't say I feel that way about MS products and looking forward with their track record I don't think I ever will.
There are also different ways to do digital distribution that don't screw the consumer over, the PC side has seen this with various digital platforms sharing some of the same features and others doing some stuff differently. Consoles are following in PC footsteps, they should also take the lessons learned from the PC on what does and does not work. I agree digital distribution is eventually where consoles will be, but MS's path isn't a good one.
MS as a publicly traded company has no one but its shareholders to make happy. MS has a terrible track record with their customers in general and have no problem killing off a product.
At least with Steam, Valve does show they give a fuck. They are privately owned and answer to no one but themselves. People trust Valve and Steam because they don't bend them over any chance they get whispering into your ear, just let it happen, it will be over soon. Valve's track record speaks for itself, they have shown they care about their community and support it. Are they perfect? Hell no, no company is, but have we found an acceptable middle ground with them where both sides are very happy? Yes.
I can't say I feel that way about MS products and looking forward with their track record I don't think I ever will.
There are also different ways to do digital distribution that don't screw the consumer over, the PC side has seen this with various digital platforms sharing some of the same features and others doing some stuff differently. Consoles are following in PC footsteps, they should also take the lessons learned from the PC on what does and does not work. I agree digital distribution is eventually where consoles will be, but MS's path isn't a good one.
styrafoam
Platinum Member
- Jun 18, 2002
- 2,684
- 0
- 0
Xbox live for the original xbox and original xbox games was turned off in 2010 i think? There is a pretty big overlap with the 360, but it still shows that they are completely willing to do it. Halo 1&2, the first chapters of the console war winning franchise, went lights out after 8 years. Of course you can still have a multiplayer match locally, but what if the original xbox was set up to phone home once a day? I don't see MS taking the daily authentication out of the Xbone once they decide to move on to the next terrible idea for what they consider to be a gaming console.
AstroManLuca
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2004
- 15,628
- 5
- 81
purbeast0
No Lifer
- Sep 13, 2001
- 53,648
- 6,528
- 126
Valve can be trusted you say? The same company that said switching to a episodic release schedule would allow them to make better games quicker? Yeah... 8 years late, still no HL3. Valve is about as full of shit as you can get. Oh, they "care about gamers" because Gabe runs his fat mouth about how he refuses to sell to EA. He doesn't mention they offer was about half what Valve was considered to be worth, though.
And what is your alternative to MS? Sony. Yes, the same company that is praising ownership of your games, so long as you don't modify them in any way. Because if you do, they will sue you. You can't modify your PS4 either. Ask geohots. Oh, and let's not forget the rootkits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal Don't think you own anything you buy from Sony. They have a record of actually trying to screw over customers.
Oh please. If you want to go back far enough you can watch MS destroy competition in operating systems and office suites through abusive tying and bundling, along with causing browser development to stagnate for years after they abused their monopoly to crush Netscape.
They used the same bundling and tying tricks to destroy companies offering media players and development tools. Borland was years ahead of MS in offering C++ compilers, so to prop up their development tools sales MS had their operating system division deny Borland access to the details needed for Win95 development.
And MS' treatment of standards? "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" used to be their motto, to get customers locked into proprietary variants for things like printer and file sharing.
It still makes news when MS decides to follow or contribute to open standards instead of locking customers into proprietary ones.
They used the same bundling and tying tricks to destroy companies offering media players and development tools. Borland was years ahead of MS in offering C++ compilers, so to prop up their development tools sales MS had their operating system division deny Borland access to the details needed for Win95 development.
And MS' treatment of standards? "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" used to be their motto, to get customers locked into proprietary variants for things like printer and file sharing.
It still makes news when MS decides to follow or contribute to open standards instead of locking customers into proprietary ones.
KaOTiK
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2001
- 10,877
- 8
- 81
Do you even listen to yourself, wtf is wrong with you.
So lets see, you spent half your post ranting about Sony who I never even mentioned (seriously how touched are you?).
Valve tried switching to episodic content and it failed, they put out 2 episodes each with a much longer development time then they should have had. They obviously abandoned, that is why there is no episode 3, hell we don't even have any confirmation of them working on HL3, so bitching that it isn't out after 8 years when it was never said to even be worked on is a bit silly. Gamers want HL3 and bug them about it, but that doesn't mean they have been working on it and if they have been seriously working on it at that.
You bring Gabe running his fat mouth (seriously making fun of Gabes weight is about as dumb as people who use M$, grow up) about EA trying to purchase them and yet you try and spin it like he is the bad guy because EA offered him half of what Valve is worth? Really? Your line of reason is wow.
This is the only way I can accurately describe how I feel reading your post.
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purbeast0
No Lifer
- Sep 13, 2001
- 53,648
- 6,528
- 126
Pr0d1gy
Diamond Member
- Jan 30, 2005
- 7,774
- 0
- 76
I have yet to need to tinker with a game to get it to work on my Windows 8 PC. All of them run like a dream and never suffer from the slowdowns and low framerate that is all too common on the pSbox1. It probably will sell like hotcakes because there are too many stupid people and bad parents out there that couldn't give two ishts about what their money is being wasted on. They are stuck in the same rut they've always been in and refuse to make the move to discover something better.
What I do find more than a little suspect is the fact that you seem to have to stalk my every post in gaming and point out how wonderful consoles are and how wrong and troll-tastic I am in your eyes.
One would think that in a tech forum where the best information is more easily found and shared that there would not be an outright push to silence those who have an unbiased, truthful view on how things are. Instead, here I am having to explain to everyone that for the same 7-800 bucks you're going to lay down on your console you could buy a PC that has unlimited capability as an actual computer AND plays all the same games at even higher resolutions. Plus the games cost less, you can play online without paying an internet tax, and you will have almost ZERO loudmouth whiney kids and ghetto dipishts blaring on the mic.
It just makes no sense to go console in this generation, unless you are too poor to afford the slightly higher cost up front. And if that is the case, you buy the hardware in pieces over time to spread out the cost anyways.
As I said, the console companies already lost this generation, the only problem is that the only information anyone gets anymore is disinformation from shills.
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