Power cleans vs bent rows

[rasczak]

my upper back is terribly under developed. Doing the rippetoe, it says i can substitue the power cleans with bent rows until i get the power clean form down pat. I've since started doing the cleans, but I do not see how the impact the back as much as rows can. I really want to hit my upper back more and don't feel the power cleans will do it.

one thought i have had was doing bent rows on an off day such as tues or thurs. Thoughts anyone?

 

[Deeko]

If you want to develop your upper back, you need to target those areas - pullups (weighted preferably), rows, things like that. Cleans don't really hit the same muscles like that.

 

[rasczak]

So then my typical workout day would look like this.

Workout a
squats
bench
deads


workout b
squat
military press
bent rows

off days
power cleans
abs

that way I get the power cleans in there along with the bent rows.

 

[brikis98]

Look at the effect of the starting strength exercises on your back:

* Squat: the entire posterior chain is used to hold the back in a natural curve and the lats get a bit of extra work with the low bar position. However, the back is a stabilizer here and not the main mover, and most of the stress is on the lower part of the back anyway (as the bar is further away from it).
* Deadlift: similar to the squat in that the back is used to keep the back in a natural curve. However, compared to the squat there is significantly more stress on the back, as the bar is further away, you typically use more weight and the legs do less of the lifting. Again, the back's role is to stabilize and most of the focus tends to be the lower back, but the upper back will definitely see an impact.
* Bench: minimal usage of the upper back to stabilize the weight.
* Press: keeping your body upright with a weight above your head uses a lot of upper body muscles, including the upper back. Again, the role is stabilization and the effect will not be too big.
* Power cleans: getting the bar from the floor to just above the knees is a deadlift, so the same analysis applies. After that, the explosive movement uses mostly your lower body (quads, hips, lower back) to fling the weight upwards along with a shrug, which will hit your traps pretty hard. Your upper back muscles play a role in stabilizing your back, similar to the squat, but the effect is again not huge.
* Rows: the first part of the movement is your lower back/hips (just to lift the weight off the floor) but after that, it is a movement almost entirely generated by the upper back muscles - traps, rhomboids, lats - with some help from you arms/biceps and back of the shoulder. This hits your upper back very directly.
* Pull-ups/chin-ups: virtually all the work is done using your upper back (lats and rhomboids) with help from the biceps and forearms. These hit your upper back very directly.

As you can see, the exercises that directly use the upper back muscles are rows and pull-ups/chin-ups. Focus on those if you need extra development. However, I listed all the other ones so you can get an appreciation of just how much your back is doing as you do the rest of the lifts in starting strength, so don't overdo it, or you'll suffer on all your other lifts.

 

[brikis98]

i would *not* recommend lifting on your off days. the rest/recovery you do in between workouts is an *essential* part of the starting strength program and will only grow more important as you grow stronger and lift more weight. cardio is the only thing i would recommend doing on off days, and power cleans & abs are NOT cardio

 

[rasczak]

^^ thanks for the breakdown. I didn't realize my back did so much. I was just disappointed in the development mass wise of my back.

Originally posted by: brikis98
i would *not* recommend lifting on your off days. the rest/recovery you do in between workouts is an *essential* part of the starting strength program and will only grow more important as you grow stronger and lift more weight. cardio is the only thing i would recommend doing on off days, and power cleans & abs are NOT cardio

I'll heed the advice. can I throw the Power Cleans in during my B workout and the abs in during my A workout?

i.e,
Workout a
squats
bench
deads
abs

workout b
squat
military press
bent rows
power cleans

Or should i start that upper/lower split you suggested in another thread of mine? I'm starting to see the benefit of moving to an upper/lower body split workout routine as i don't think I could get all of these exercises done in one hour.

 

[brikis98]

Well, the primary goal with starting strength is to increase strength on the 5 core lifts: squat, bench, deadlift, press, power clean. When you get better at these, your overall strength is significantly improved (where as getting better at assistance lifts typically has a much smaller effect on overall strength). These are the main movements and your entire workout - including any assistance exercises you toss in - should be tailored to getting better at these main lifts. So, you are right to want to focus on your upper back if that is what's holding you back from doing better at the main lifts. But if these assistance exercises get in the way of the main lifts, you need to cut back. You are not required to do assistance exercises at all and you certainly don't have to do the same ones every day.

For example, try something like this:

Workout A
Squat
Bench
Deadlifts

Workout B
Squat
Press
Power cleans

Assistance
Assistance 1: pull-ups
Assistance 2: abs
Assistance 3: rows

Typical two weeks
Monday: Workout A, Assistance 1
Wednesday: Workout B, Assistance 2
Friday: Workout A, Assistance 3

Monday: Workout B, Assistance 1
Wednesday: Workout A, Assistance 2
Friday: Workout B, Assistance 3

Comments
This gives you exactly 4 exercises per day, which you should be able to do in an hour. If not, spend less time doing the assistance exercises - e.g. less sets, less reps, or even skip some assistance on a certain day.

 

[TheVrolok]

Admittedly I used to (and do again due to my laziness/busyness keeping me out of the gym the last few months) have a weak upper back as well, and my answer was pull ups, pull ups, pull ups. I think one of my the reasons my upper back was weak to begin with was that I neglected pull ups because I was never good at 'em. Just get in there, and give it a go.

 

[rasczak]

I feel the same way you did about them. When I started, I couldn't even do one pull up. I haven't tried since as it was too depressing lol.

I'll give it a go this fridau on my workout B day.

 

[gramboh]

Highly recommend pull-ups/chin-ups (I alternate them, as per SL 5x5). When I started I could do 1 chin and zero pull-ups. I used the assistance bands for a month or so to increase my strength, I can get 7 pull-ups and 9 chins now on the first set if I have good energy, some days I don't though lol. Just know you WILL get them if you keep at it.

 

[rasczak]

So I had my wife take a look at my back flexed, she told me there were defintely muscles there ^^, but she did notice that my left side was more developed than my right side. Guess it's due to my bad shoulder. Blech, i don;t want to have one side look more developed than the other side. That would just be too wierd. :|

 

[MegaVovaN]

Originally posted by: gramboh
Highly recommend pull-ups/chin-ups (I alternate them, as per SL 5x5). When I started I could do 1 chin and zero pull-ups. I used the assistance bands for a month or so to increase my strength, I can get 7 pull-ups and 9 chins now on the first set if I have good energy, some days I don't though lol. Just know you WILL get them if you keep at it.

Yep. I could do only 2 chin ups and 1 pull up. But eventually I brought both to 10 reps. Or several sets of 7-8. But then I got stuck at 10-11. Just couldn't do more than that. So I am now doing 5x5 weighted. Up to +17.5 lb now. I am doing them every training day, usually one day pull ups, then chin ups 2nd day, then 3rd (training) day hammer (parallel) grip, then bump up weight by 2.5 lb. :thumbsup:

 

[scootermaster]

Originally posted by: rasczak
So I had my wife take a look at my back flexed, she told me there were defintely muscles there ^^, but she did notice that my left side was more developed than my right side. Guess it's due to my bad shoulder. Blech, i don;t want to have one side look more developed than the other side. That would just be too wierd. :|

Living in Socal and hanging on the beach and stuff, let me tell you...if you've got a rippled (or "buff" looking back) without flexing, you are RIPPPPPPPED. It's sorta like having big and defined calves. Like .00001% of the population has that. If I flex my back, you can make out all sorts of muscles, but cold, it just looks smooth and flat. I think that's just sorta the way it works for most people/non-genetic freaks.

 

[gramboh]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN

Originally posted by: gramboh
Highly recommend pull-ups/chin-ups (I alternate them, as per SL 5x5). When I started I could do 1 chin and zero pull-ups. I used the assistance bands for a month or so to increase my strength, I can get 7 pull-ups and 9 chins now on the first set if I have good energy, some days I don't though lol. Just know you WILL get them if you keep at it.

Yep. I could do only 2 chin ups and 1 pull up. But eventually I brought both to 10 reps. Or several sets of 7-8. But then I got stuck at 10-11. Just couldn't do more than that. So I am now doing 5x5 weighted. Up to +17.5 lb now. I am doing them every training day, usually one day pull ups, then chin ups 2nd day, then 3rd (training) day hammer (parallel) grip, then bump up weight by 2.5 lb. :thumbsup:

Nice mega, not to threadjack but do you find hammer grip harder or easier than normal grip pull-ups (palms facing away from body)? I have never tried them.

 

[MegaVovaN]

Originally posted by: gramboh

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN

Originally posted by: gramboh
Highly recommend pull-ups/chin-ups (I alternate them, as per SL 5x5). When I started I could do 1 chin and zero pull-ups. I used the assistance bands for a month or so to increase my strength, I can get 7 pull-ups and 9 chins now on the first set if I have good energy, some days I don't though lol. Just know you WILL get them if you keep at it.

Yep. I could do only 2 chin ups and 1 pull up. But eventually I brought both to 10 reps. Or several sets of 7-8. But then I got stuck at 10-11. Just couldn't do more than that. So I am now doing 5x5 weighted. Up to +17.5 lb now. I am doing them every training day, usually one day pull ups, then chin ups 2nd day, then 3rd (training) day hammer (parallel) grip, then bump up weight by 2.5 lb. :thumbsup:

Nice mega, not to threadjack but do you find hammer grip harder or easier than normal grip pull-ups (palms facing away from body)? I have never tried them.

Hammer grip is easier. Most people would feel strongest with this grip (according to the guy that wrote SS FAQ on bbing.com.

For me, it is like this:
Hammer grip - easiest
Pullup grip (palms away from body) - normal
Chin up (palms TO body) - slightly harder, maybe due to uncomfortable grip.

(Comfortableness of grip is in same order. Hammer is most comfortable, chin up is worst).

 

[rasczak]

did the bent rows. my form is terrible. gah. i was struggling to lift the weight at the end of each of my sets. i was able to get 155lbs up but pulld back as i wanted to actually finish my routine


1x5 155lbs.
4x5 135lbs

should I try to pinch at the top of the lift? i'm really not sure how to activate the back muscles at the very end of the lift.

 

[Koing]

Power Cleans primarily work your
Legs and back with some traps and upperback. BUT thats only if you use a heavy load or your technique is profficient enough.

Why not do both?

The Power Clean is an amazing exercise. Most othe exercises DO NOT BUILD ANYWHERE NEAR AS MUCH POWER. It will help you run faster and jump higher. Take the time to learn the technique and to be patient.

The bent over row will focus on the backmore then the power clean will.

Koing

 

[rasczak]

Originally posted by: Koing
Power Cleans primarily work your
Legs and back with some traps and upperback. BUT thats only if you use a heavy load or your technique is profficient enough.

Why not do both?

The Power Clean is an amazing exercise. Most othe exercises DO NOT BUILD ANYWHERE NEAR AS MUCH POWER. It will help you run faster and jump higher. Take the time to learn the technique and to be patient.

The bent over row will focus on the backmore then the power clean will.

Koing

Thanks Koing. I think i'm going to go with the routine Brikis mentioned, and use bent rows as an assistance as opposed to a main part of the program.

I love the power cleans myself. They a fun exercise, I'm stating low (115lbs) and I'll work my way up from there to work on my form. I noticed last time i did them, I did not do the little up to snap the weight up onto my shoulders too well, so I'll work on that today.