Porsche 944 - Good Idea?

[arnoc]

So, I a while back posted about looking at types of vehicles for first time buying for around 10k. Well, I finally got my money together, and was about to go talk to the bank about loans, when a friend of mine pointed me towards this gem.

1984 Porsche 944. I fell in love with the car at first sight. It's listed for 5,796. Appears to be in good condition, dealer has all the service records. It's apparently a one owner car. 132,000 miles on it.

Now, I know Porsche parts = $$$, but. For a first car, at that price point. It looks to be a hell of a lot of fun, better gas mileage than I'm getting now (Supposed to get get 18/24, compared to my current 11/16).

So, thoughts folks? Anything to look out for?

 

[NutBucket]

Find a reputable Porsche shop for a thorough PDI if you're really interested. That, and be prepared for a tough maintenance schedule. IIRC the timing belt service interval is 30k. Plus there are a number of specialized tools necessary too. But other than that its supposedly a great handling car.

So in conclusion, enjoy your Audi.

 

[halik]

That is stupid expensive for a pre '86 car with that many miles. Really fun cars, had an '86 while back. The only tricky part is the timing belt/water pump that is like a 30k mile maintenance item .

 

[NutBucket]

Yes! My memory hasn't failed me yet

 

[arnoc]

And water pump every 60k, right?

 

[JulesMaximus]

That is stupid expensive for a pre '86 car with that many miles. Really fun cars, had an '86 while back. The only tricky part is the timing belt/water pump that is like a 30k mile maintenance item .

Not really. Those cars are pretty desirable and it's not like there are tons of them on the used market.

 

[arnoc]

Not really. Those cars are pretty desirable and it's not like there are tons of them on the used market.

From my quick research, it also looked like that average sell point for them is usually around 6,300. And that there were also only about 16,000 of them in the US?

 

[Viper GTS]

My boss has one he has owned since new, he loves that car more than any rational person should.

In the last 15 months he has spent well over $10k on maintenance and repairs. It's a 27 year old car that gets driven a lot, and a lot of these repairs will let him drive it tens of thousands more miles. Also to be fair he is not going the cheap route on repairs - it's been dealer serviced since new (I think he just likes the panamera loaners he keeps getting). His latest trip is $6500 and counting.

But don't let the low purchase price deceive you if you can't work on it yourself it is going to cost you.

Viper GTS

 

[JulesMaximus]

From my quick research, it also looked like that average sell point for them is usually around 6,300. And that there were also only about 16,000 of them in the US?

Would be even better if it was a turbo but those command even more dollars.

 

[Throckmorton]

Having owned many cheap old cars, my advice is to get a car loan and a much newer car. You'll spend all your time working on that 944, or having someone else work on it.

A newer car is safer, more reliable, faster, etc. Leave that 944 for a Porsche collector.

Late last year I bought a 1996 BMW 3 series for $3100, but I spent about $3000 on it over the 5 months I had it. It's not that German cars are especially expensive to repair, it's just the age. That Porsche is 12 years older. Everything will probably need replacing!

I got a 2006 Mustang for $11k a few months ago and have put 14k miles on it, so now it's up to 133k. You know what repairs it has needed? None, just preventive maintenance like spark plugs. Supposedly there's an axle leak but I'm not worried about a drop of oil coming out per week. I've never had such a reliable car. It's pretty amazing being able to drive 500 miles in a weekend and not worry about spending a day at the mechanic.

 

[arnoc]

My boss has one he has owned since new, he loves that car more than any rational person should.

In the last 15 months he has spent well over $10k on maintenance and repairs. It's a 27 year old car that gets driven a lot, and a lot of these repairs will let him drive it tens of thousands more miles. Also to be fair he is not going the cheap route on repairs - it's been dealer serviced since new (I think he just likes the panamera loaners he keeps getting). His latest trip is $6500 and counting.

But don't let the low purchase price deceive you if you can't work on it yourself it is going to cost you.

Viper GTS

I've got a local Porsche dealer I was planning on calling up tomorrow and just seeing what they think the costs for doing the water pump and time belt would hurt me. If it's not too too bad, I might get my feet wet with it. Since I've started driving my parents car at around 100k miles, I've only put on about 31,000 miles on it.

 

[NutBucket]

And what do you think insurance costs are for a new driver in a Porsche? Consider that one?

 

[thedarkwolf]

or just get a mid 90s miata like all the rest of us have . Super reliable, fun, and cheap.

 

[Meghan54]

The only way I'd buy that car is if I already had a reliable, primary vehicle for daily driver use. The 944 will end up spending too much time in the shop to qualify as a dd.

 

[Zenmervolt]

From my quick research, it also looked like that average sell point for them is usually around 6,300. And that there were also only about 16,000 of them in the US?

That's about right on the average selling point, but I literally laughed at the "16,000 in the US" figure.

Porsche brought in close to 57,000 of the 8-valve models into the US. 16,000 is close to correct for the 1984 model year, but that's also the most common model year. The 1984 models are not particularly desirable since they have the old-style dashboard with its relatively ineffective HVAC system (the heat is OK, A/C on early models sucks). Porsche also imported over 8,800 944 "S" models, close to 14,000 944 Turbo models, another 3,600 944 "S2" models and about 2,400 944 "S2" Cabriolet models.

I've owned several 944 models and currently own a 951 (aka "944 Turbo") and here's what I would say regarding them

The good about 944s:

- Very good handling and fantastic "feel." The cars are predictable and can make a complete hack look like a decent driver.
- Moderate fuel consumption. The 8-valve cars can achieve high 20s on the freeway and you should be able to average 25-27 mpg depending on how you drive.
- Can carry a surprising amount of stuff in the hatch.

The bad:

- Old stuff is old stuff. These cars are 20+ years old. Rubber bits fail from age and electronics start to get iffy. With no real self-monitoring ability, determining which sensor has failed can be very time consuming.
- Expensive clutch job. The book time for replacing a 944 clutch is 16 hours. And since most shops charge around $100/hour replacing the clutch can be close to a $2,000 job if you have someone else do it.
- Poor OE clutch design. The original clutch used a rubber center (instead of a spring center) and this degrades with AGE, not mileage. While the friction material can easily last 150,000 miles or more, the percentages are that a 1984 car with the original clutch will have a disintegrating rubber center and need replacement soon even if the friction material is still good. Replacement clutches, however, are now spring centered and have been for quite some time.
- The front of engine service is not just replacing the timing belt, but also the balance shaft belt, front of engine seals, and all rollers. Budget anywhere from $1,000 to $1,500 to have a shop perform the work. This is every 30,000 miles or 3 years, whichever comes FIRST. So even if you only put 10,000 miles on the car over 3 years, you still have to replace the belts, seals, and rollers. If the belt breaks, the pistons will collide with the valves destroying the top-end (if you're lucky, if you're not lucky, a valve head snaps off and scores a cylinder and then you're in for even more $$$).
- These cars were ~$25,000 (base, without any options) when new. That doesn't sound like much now, but at that time the most expensive Honda Accord you could buy was about $13,000. So we're talking about what would be $50,000+ cars today. Maintenance and parts reflect the original price, not the current price on the used market.
- The back seats are suitable only for legless dwarfs. Consider them nothing more than parcel shelves with tie downs that merely happen to look like seat belts.
- Despite the handling, they are not that fast. 0-60 is around 8 seconds for the 8-valve cars. Hard launches will destroy the ring and pinion which will necessitate either replacing or rebuilding the transaxle.
- The rear hatch is prone to separating from the aluminum frame and leaking water into the car. Repairing the hatch is absurdly expensive and replacing the hatch is even worse (unless you buy a used hatch, which is still expensive and is not guaranteed to fix the issue since the problem is endemic to the cars and a used hatch is likely to also suffer from delamination).

I do NOT recommend them for a first car unless you have the time, space, and proven inclination to perform the services yourself and don't mind having to walk sometimes. I love the 944 and, barring some form of catastrophe, will have my 951 until I die. But it's a fairly demanding mistress.

If you are all about cars and the 944 is all you've ever wanted and you're willing to put up with just about anything to have it, then go for it. You'll probably enjoy it. But if your thought is "wow, I can get a Porsche for $5,000" then you're asking for trouble.

ZV

 

[arnoc]

or just get a mid 90s miata like all the rest of us have . Super reliable, fun, and cheap.

There are a few ones in my area. There's this one for about 6.9k from 2003 with 67k miles on it:

@Zenmervolt:

Thanks for the advice. I saw the price and my buddy was hyping it up, so it was quite tempting. But hence why I sought out advice rather then go impulse buy it straight away first thing in the morning.

It is a lovely piece of machine, but after hearing about the potential issues, I think it's going to have to be a buy that's set for later on in life. Tis a damn shame, it is damn nice looking.

 

[ProchargeMe]

I see these cars on the street here almost daily, and I fell in love with them. If I had the money to maintain one I would probably buy it just to have it.

 

[nerp]

Nice car, but it's not a good car for your first car or for a daily driver. As others have said, when you break down two months into owning it and the mechanic tells you it arrived on the tow and you need to cough up $3,500 just to get it going again, you'll regret it, especially when it happens again three months later. If the car had really low miles or something, maybe. But this car is a candidate for an engine rebuild at some point soon.

 

[Jimzz]

Fun little car but costly.

I thought about getting one for my toy car and dropping in a Chevy motor.

If it is cheap, good body with no rust, not your daily car, and you do all(90%+) the work yourself then go for it. But I would try and get at least a 87+. 87+ Gets a good amount of updates that I think make it a better car.

 

[Zenmervolt]

If the car had really low miles or something, maybe. But this car is a candidate for an engine rebuild at some point soon.

While I agree that it's not a good choice for a first car, this part of your post is just absurd.

The core engine components (block, pistons, rings, etc.) are incredibly durable on these cars and 132,000 miles is not anywhere even remotely close to being a "candidate for an engine rebuild at some point soon." There are many, many, many people with 250,000+ miles on original 944 long blocks that still have great compression and show no signs of needing a rebuild.

The car in question will almost certainly NOT need a rebuild any time soon.

What it will need, however, are things like temperature sensors, reference sensors, cleaned/replaced Air Flow Meter, etc. The electronic bits that tend to start getting corroded with age.

If it is cheap, good body with no rust, not your daily car, and you do all(90%+) the work yourself then go for it. But I would try and get at least a 87+. 87+ Gets a good amount of updates that I think make it a better car.

Ugh.

1) The 944 doesn't rust. The body is fully galvanized and short of accident damage breaking the galvanization you won't get body rot on these cars. So just because the body doesn't have rust doesn't mean it's a well-cared-for example. I've seen lots of hack-job pain-in-the-ass repairs on 944s that looked "clean" at first glance and trust me, you don't want to get into having to fix someone else's "creative" re-wiring methods.

2) Doing the work yourself doesn't change the fact that parts are expensive and that the work is time consuming. The mechanical bits are fit into the car very snugly and there is often little space to work, which makes doing your own repairs even more time consuming. Unless you have a covered (and preferably enclosed and heated) area to work in this sort of thing can be quite miserable.

3) There is nothing special about the 1987 models. The changes came halfway through the 1985 model year. The improved cars are referred to as "1985.5" models and the chief improvement is the vastly improved HVAC and more modern dash. While there were some changes made to the 1987 cars (different strut mounts in the front, revised control arms) these are not noticeable to the driver. The '87 and later cars use a different offset for the wheels because ABS became an option, but I wouldn't say that ABS alone made it a "much better car." At most, the benefit to '87+ models is that the change in offset allows greater choice in non-OE wheels if the owner should choose to go that route.

ZV

 

[Jimzz]

Ugh.

1) The 944 doesn't rust. The body is fully galvanized and short of accident damage breaking the galvanization you won't get body rot on these cars. So just because the body doesn't have rust doesn't mean it's a well-cared-for example. I've seen lots of hack-job pain-in-the-ass repairs on 944s that looked "clean" at first glance and trust me, you don't want to get into having to fix someone else's "creative" re-wiring methods.

2) Doing the work yourself doesn't change the fact that parts are expensive and that the work is time consuming. The mechanical bits are fit into the car very snugly and there is often little space to work, which makes doing your own repairs even more time consuming. Unless you have a covered (and preferably enclosed and heated) area to work in this sort of thing can be quite miserable.

3) There is nothing special about the 1987 models. The changes came halfway through the 1985 model year. The improved cars are referred to as "1985.5" models and the chief improvement is the vastly improved HVAC and more modern dash. While there were some changes made to the 1987 cars (different strut mounts in the front, revised control arms) these are not noticeable to the driver. The '87 and later cars use a different offset for the wheels because ABS became an option, but I wouldn't say that ABS alone made it a "much better car." At most, the benefit to '87+ models is that the change in offset allows greater choice in non-OE wheels if the owner should choose to go that route.

ZV

Yep 944's are the rare care that never rust...

Yep no rust at all.




Doing the work yourself on a non-daily driven car does make a hugh difference. Parts cost is high but not as high as labor.


1987 was the first year of airbags and ABS, the Motronic got a update, and the wheel offset changed. Then after that it got engine updates and so forth.

 

[nerp]

When I said candidate for an engine rebuild sometime soon, I meant within the next 100,000 miles. Even if the engine runs OK, it's going to be down on power by the time it reaches 200,000.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Yep 944's are the rare care that never rust...

Yep no rust at all.

Gee, the rust you show pictures of is all in places where there had been physical damage in addition to the rust. The sort that would break through the galvanization. You know, sort of like I actually said.

The galvanization on these cars is very good. Unless something has chipped through it (as tends to happen in the underbody). The sill panels get rust because they tend to hit curbs and pick up heavy stone chips, which breaks through the galvanization. There's a reason you don't see 944s running around with rusted out fenders like you do Japanese and American cars of the same vintage.

Doing the work yourself on a non-daily driven car does make a hugh difference. Parts cost is high but not as high as labor.

I didn't say DIY didn't make it cheaper. I said it requires time and a place to do the work which most people don't have. The OP is looking at this for his first car. I don't know too many people whose first car was a second car.

And that still doesn't change the fact that parts for a 944 are more expensive than parts for something like a Civic. Again, we're talking about someone's first car, not about a weekend project by an experienced mechanic.

1987 was the first year of airbags and ABS, the Motronic got a update, and the wheel offset changed. Then after that it got engine updates and so forth.

First of all, the switch to BOSCH ML3.1 happened in 1985.5, not 1987. Secondly, aside from the change to a replaceable chip instead of a soldered-in chip the differences are minor and are not meaningful in terms of either drivability or reliability; it's simply a switch to a cheaper-to-manufacture DME with more of the interpretation function built into the chip rather than the signaling of the sensors. Basically, the later DME is to the early DME what the PS3 SuperSlim is to the PS3. No difference in end-user functionality but the later model is cheaper to produce due to technological advances. There was no update to Motronic in '87.

ABS is "meh" and the wheel offset, as I mentioned, is only important if you're intent on swapping wheels. As for airbags, they're nice, but I wouldn't call them enough to make a car "vastly better."

The 1985.5 updates are the important updates as those are the ones that the driver will actually notice.

ZV

 

[RGN]

Another 944 owner here, Zenmervolt has pretty much accurately covered what I was going to post. I'll just add some of my experience and opinion. My car is an 84. I bought it 10 years ago, suckered into the (then) $3K initial cost. I got "lucky" as the car I bought had the basic belts done, but was otherwise totally unmolested and in good shape. Albeit needing other maintenance....

The car had the original rubber centered clutch, and at 77k, it was in bad shape. I did the job myself, some evenings not getting anything done but a lot of swearing. New control arms, new shocks/struts, radiator, sway bars, etc the list goes on... I've put about $3k of parts into it, turning my own wrenches. It's at 100k miles now, needs a timing belt, rollers and water pump, about $700 in parts. air conditioning has never worked. This summer I removed the separated and leaking hatch glass, cleaned the frame and re-installed it. Again, the labor, hours of being careful, was my own.

I know there are folks that just pay to have the work done on their 944's, but IMO it's not worth it. The cars are great, but I think they have passed the point where it makes sense to maintain them as we do. Don't get me wrong, driving the 944 the way it's intended is almost as much fun as you can have with your pants on, but they require a lot of patience and sweat equity or an almost prohibitive amount of money. Furthermore, there are a lot of other great handling small coupe that don't carry the same baggage the Porsche does.

 

[Throckmorton]

I don't buy that they're great cars and all that. For the time I'm sure, but now you can get much better cars that will be cheaper to run