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Pope on the Right Wing Christians

One thing about this Pope is that he's looooonng on talk, and seems all to willing to denigrate his own -- something doesn't seem quite right about that. In fact, all good politicans are good "talkers" and "promisers", and fall well short of delivering on anything.

He's a politician, and a pretty good one!

He should outline a plan to deal with it instead of stating the obvious.
 
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The pope is absolutely right. I've never been fond of fundamentalist Christianity.

God is the end. Try and use Him as the means, and suffering results.

Also, the article is taking considerable liberty with its interpretation of what the Pope said about abortion. Abortion is the calumny it has always been, and the Pope did nothing to compromise the church's position.
 
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I'm liking this Pope, he is the right person for this time. I do feel the Church has been too distracted and needs to be more focused on the big picture, helping the poor and spreading kindness.
 
Atreus21 said:
The pope is absolutely right. I've never been fond of fundamentalist Christianity.

God is the end. Try and use Him as the means, and suffering results.

Also, the article is taking considerable liberty with its interpretation of what the Pope said about abortion. Abortion is the calumny it has always been, and the Pope did nothing to compromise the church's position.
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Ok, so what does he plan to do about it? Nothing? Just to "mention" it?

Atheists make that same observations Francis does. What's the difference?
 
Atreus21 said:
The difference is atheists are atheists.
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Lol, I don't think you're serious.

An atheist pointing out the issues with religion in America and the world doesn't make him any less truthful or credible than a religion leader who says it.

I was being quite serious when I stated he's (Francis) nothing more than a politician -- stating the obvious, with no detailed plan of action, so he may as well not say anything at all.

It doesn't take divine revelation, or an old man in Rome, to recognize the utter failure of fundamental Christianity in America.

It would take one heck of a person to present and implement successful ways of fixing it. THAT would be deserving of praise.
 
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Rob M. said:
Lol, I don't think you're serious.

An atheist pointing out the issues with religion in America and the world doesn't make him any less truthful or credible than a religion leader who says it.

I was being quite serious when I stated he's (Francis) nothing more than a politician -- stating the obvious, with no detailed plan of action, so he may as well not say anything at all.

It doesn't take divine revelation, or an old man in Rome, to recognize the utter failure of fundamental Christianity in America.

It would take one heck of a person to present and implement successful ways of fixing it. THAT would be deserving of praise.
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The very fact that Francis is making this assertion gives it a degree of legitimacy in the public eye that a similar statement by atheists could never achieve. Francis doesn't need to suggest a "plan of action." His public statements will increasingly marginalize the religious right, calling their views into question, decreasing their ability to influence society. That sounds pretty good to me.
 
shira said:
The very fact that Francis is making this assertion gives it a degree of legitimacy in the public eye that a similar statement by atheists could never achieve. Francis doesn't need to suggest a "plan of action." His public statements will increasingly marginalize the religious right, calling their views into question, decreasing their ability to influence society. That sounds pretty good to me.
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Eh, maybe I don't get it...or maybe I simply don't care who/where facts come from, as long as their facts, or maybe I see the pope's making these statements as no different as a local pastor speaking to a local news station.

But to me, this is old news. It's just that more people, even that old dude popey in Rome, are willing to pay more lip service.

But I can agree that it does, to some degree, matter who says what. But I've noticed that marginalization of the RR has been increasing even well before he was pope.

Politicians ride trends to meet the people where they are...he's not doing anything different...just riding a trend.
 
Rob M. said:
Eh, maybe I don't get it...or maybe I simply don't care who/where facts come from, as long as their facts, or maybe I see the pope's making these statements as no different as a local pastor speaking to a local news station.

But to me, this is old news. It's just that more people, even that old dude popey in Rome, are willing to pay more lip service.

But I can agree that it does, to some degree, matter who says what. But I've noticed that marginalization of the RR has been increasing even well before he was pope.

Politicians ride trends to meet the people where they are...he's not doing anything different...just riding a trend.
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You are missing that these real extreme folks follow the Pope, a simplier analogy is its like Rush Limbaugh saying the Republican party has become too extreme.
 
Rob M. said:
Lol, I don't think you're serious.

An atheist pointing out the issues with religion in America and the world doesn't make him any less truthful or credible than a religion leader who says it.

I was being quite serious when I stated he's (Francis) nothing more than a politician -- stating the obvious, with no detailed plan of action, so he may as well not say anything at all.

It doesn't take divine revelation, or an old man in Rome, to recognize the utter failure of fundamental Christianity in America.

It would take one heck of a person to present and implement successful ways of fixing it. THAT would be deserving of praise.
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You wouldn't see a difference between Christopher Dawkins criticizing a fellow atheist and the pope criticizing atheists?
 
Atreus21 said:
You wouldn't see a difference between Christopher Dawkins criticizing a fellow atheist and the pope criticizing atheists?
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I suppose you mean Chris Hitchens, but yea...I admitted that there is a difference.

However, the chasm between the pope's and hitches' criticism isn't so great that I would completely disregard what the pope would say regarding atheists....especially if what he says is true. What people would be doing is essentially bowing to Hitchens because he basically re-stated what the pope as been saying all along.

FWIW, I've always agreed with Dawkins'/Hitchens'/Harris' view of religion in America because I'm interested in facts, no matter who brings them to light.

I'm not all of a suddenly "wow'd" and falling all over the pope (or any person) who admits something the rest of the civilized world has known for years.
 
Fanatical Meat said:
You are missing that these real extreme folks follow the Pope, a simplier analogy is its like Rush Limbaugh saying the Republican party has become too extreme.
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I think you're right. If it takes a pope to make such statements for people to listen, then they're worshipping the man, while previously ignoring facts because of 'who' said it.

It shouldn't matter who said it -- facts will remain facts. I mean, a 6-year old telling me that drinking bleach will harm me shouldn't be any less credible that a PhD who says the same thing.
 
Rob M. said:
I suppose you mean Chris Hitchens, but yea...I admitted that there is a difference.

However, the chasm between the pope's and hitches' criticism isn't so great that I would completely disregard what the pope would say regarding atheists....especially if what he says is true. What people would be doing is essentially bowing to Hitchens because he basically re-stated what the pope as been saying all along.

FWIW, I've always agreed with Dawkins'/Hitchens'/Harris' view of religion in America because I'm interested in facts, no matter who brings them to light.

I'm not all of a suddenly "wow'd" and falling all over the pope (or any person) who admits something the rest of the civilized world has known for years.
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Yes, Christopher Dawkins and Richard Hitchens. That's who I meant.
 
Rob M. said:
I think you're right. If it takes a pope to make such statements for people to listen, then they're worshipping the man, while previously ignoring facts because of 'who' said it.

It shouldn't matter who said it -- facts will remain facts. I mean, a 6-year old telling me that drinking bleach will harm me shouldn't be any less credible that a PhD who says the same thing.
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Outsider vs. Insider. Member vs. Non-member. It's no different for any group of people.
 
Atreus21 said:
Well, he's been pretty hard on his fellow Catholics too.
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Yea, but I just find it interesting the Pope says the actions of people who broke apart from the Catholic Church are damaging Christianity, and certain atheist onlookers see this and think "Yes! You validate and strengthen me! Thank You!"
 
Nintendesert said:
Outsider vs. Insider. Member vs. Non-member. It's no different for any group of people.
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Well, if I understand your point, that's an indictment on how ignorant people can be.

I DO understand that it takes someone relatively close to you (family member/church member) to add force to a specific point or issue that an "outsider" repeatedly laid bare, but why is that always the case?

People should be able to honestly evaluate issues aside from this apparent prejudice toward "outsider" opinion. Maybe the needed attention would have been given to it sooner, and action been taken much sooner than what's now needed.
 
He's a funny guy, almost an anti-Pope. Taking aim at those opposing abortion, gays, and Christian dogma is, um, odd in a Pope, as well as proclaiming that Christianity (indeed, religion in general) is not the only path to Heaven. But while he's arguing the typical Catholic position of income redistribution, he's also taking aim at the huge corruption and entitlement within the Catholic Church hierarchy, at bishops doing $42 million residence renovations and archbishops covering for child molesters. All in all, he's a breath of fresh air.
 
werepossum said:
He's a funny guy, almost an anti-Pope. Taking aim at those opposing abortion, gays, and Christian dogma is, um, odd in a Pope, as well as proclaiming that Christianity (indeed, religion in general) is not the only path to Heaven. But while he's arguing the typical Catholic position of income redistribution, he's also taking aim at the huge corruption and entitlement within the Catholic Church hierarchy, at bishops doing $42 million residence renovations and archbishops covering for child molesters. All in all, he's a breath of fresh air.
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agreed.

he is pretty much mentioning what is wrong with the church. instead of trying to whitewash it.
while talking about it is a huge step (and frankly shocked it was said). i wan't to see action on it.

The church has turned away many i know. With the calls to give and the pope and hierarchy living lavish lifestyles. With them hiding teh sex abuse, moving money to claim parish's were broke so they wouldn't pay. Then on top of it it seemed like that many in the church were nothing more then fakes.

it seems Jesus's teaching got lost somewhere along the way.
 
waggy said:
agreed.

he is pretty much mentioning what is wrong with the church. instead of trying to whitewash it.
while talking about it is a huge step (and frankly shocked it was said). i wan't to see action on it.

The church has turned away many i know. With the calls to give and the pope and hierarchy living lavish lifestyles. With them hiding teh sex abuse, moving money to claim parish's were broke so they wouldn't pay. Then on top of it it seemed like that many in the church were nothing more then fakes.

it seems Jesus's teaching got lost somewhere along the way.
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Quite right.

Hey knucklehead, it's suffer the little children. SUFFER! Not ah heck!

Maybe with this Pope, that message will finally sink in.
 
waggy said:
agreed.

he is pretty much mentioning what is wrong with the church. instead of trying to whitewash it.
while talking about it is a huge step (and frankly shocked it was said). i wan't to see action on it.

The church has turned away many i know. With the calls to give and the pope and hierarchy living lavish lifestyles. With them hiding teh sex abuse, moving money to claim parish's were broke so they wouldn't pay. Then on top of it it seemed like that many in the church were nothing more then fakes.

it seems Jesus's teaching got lost somewhere along the way.
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I can agree, but a breakthrough would be making a public and written apology for the hundreds of lives pedo priests have ruined, or how they vow to excommunicate those with direct knowledge/involvement with the child abuse scandal and deliberate cover-up, or acknowledge their direct contribution to children born in poverty due to their obstinate (and unbiblical) opposition to family planning.

I think he needs to do more than acknowledge the problem within his own ranks, though its a start, but futile if actions aren't taken.

What use would all this be if, 20 years from now, they haven't changed? Then the same people praising him for taking such a hardline stance would simply remember him as a branch from the same old tree -- long on talk, short on action.
 
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