Poor state of A/V displays

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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So I spent a decent amount of time over the last couple of weeks looking for a display for my bedroom. Not looking for anything fancy or huge, something in the 26"-32" range with HDMI. My wife said that she would like to be able to hang it on a wall so I was focusing on trying to find a LCD that was decent to take care of what I'm looking for. I almost never watch cable, I only worry about movies and games, but my wife does.

So I start doing research and visiting every B&M I can find that has a selection of displays to check out focusing on those that don't mind me fixing their setup issues(shocking how poorly they set displays up at most stores- Discovery HD running in glorious 480i.... heh). The main theme that I noticed is almost every display available today is grossly inferior to those made a few years ago- LCD, Plasma, DLP and CRT. They only displays I saw that I found remotely decent were Sony's LCoS SXRD offerings, but they start at 50".

On the LCD side the only displays that had what I would consider tollerable quality(not good mind you) started at $2K and went up from there($2K was for a 26" display). Even those suffered from horrific black levels, slow response time, screen door issues and sluggish response time- but not nearly as badly as the lesser models. On the up side there has been a large improvement on that front it seems, either that or the Aquos line has tanked as comparing several models from that line to the competition the Aquos looked down right horrible.

The CRT front has certainly declined too. It looks like Matsushita and Mitsubishi have left the quality CRT market altogether. I found a couple of Taus on display, but they were clearly inferior to older models(which I already have one of in the house) although they are very cheap now. Sony seems to still be playing, but they haven't had a CRT comparable to Mitsu or Panasonics older models for a very long time and that doesn't appeared to have changed. I also checked out Samsungs new line of thin CRTs- they suffered from uneven pixel sizes across the screen and had considerably lower top level resolution then the better LCDs but they looked to be the best out of what was out there(comparing HD feeds- SD was eye gouging on the LCDs), they were also quite cheap.

So after going over everything and doing all the research I did what any married man knows he has to do in these situations- I brought the boss with me to make the final decision to a few different B&Ms. After going over all the selections she decided to give up on her hopes to get something to hang on the wall. She was impressed with the SXRDs, but they are far too large for our uses for this display(one of those will likely end up as the main A/V display later this year) and after that it was down to the lesser of evils. She ended up picking out the Samsung TXR3079WH- a widescreen 30" thin CRT that ran us $849 at Circuit City- a lot less then what we had planned(enough so I got to give the aging sound system in our bed room a needed replacement) to spend but it was the only display she found satisfying- particularly considering the price(if the price was the same there was an LCD she was fond of, but it was $2.7K- and she said that she liked it about the same).

Why have consumer displays gotten so poor? I realize the industry is in a transition now- but why isn't anyone offering any decent displays in the smaller sizes? For that matter, the only display I would say was really good out of everything I saw was the Sony SXRD line- and for the record I loathe Sony's consumer electronics(poorly made shite that breaks far too often). Perhaps I am missed out on some of the better options available, but I was rather let down at the poor state of displays in general. Overall the tube we went with isn't bad by any means, but it has issues with uniformity and its contrast(it is a CRT) can't touch my older Tau- not even close. Given the price we paid I don't have any major qualms, but I was more then willing to spend more for a higher quality offering- I simply couldn't find one in the range we were looking at.

I'm hoping that the upcoming OLED and SED displays will make some major improvements with IQ over the next couple of years, either that or someone will make some decent smaller sized and faster LCoS displays(a bit more contrast would be nice also).
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
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What about plasmas? They have a higher contrast ratio than CRTs and I was amazed at how well skin tones looked on the Samsung plasma I saw at Circuit City. LCDs don't really make good TVs because of the viewing angle and purplish blacks. CRTs are way too gigantic, and DLPs looked really darkish to me (perhaps it was just the model I saw that sucked). In addition to that LCoS suffer from lack of contrast. Panasonic makes a 37" plasma but that's as low as they go in size (from what I see). Granted they have to scale resolution (the smaller inch ones due to big dot pitch) but the color saturation is amazing.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
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I think Plasma and LCD TVs are good enough. I would get Plasma if the main focus was TV and movies. LCD TV if computer and games are more your focus.

I think for bedroom, you can't beat the convenience of Plasma and LCD since you can hang it on the wall and size of these displays are perfect for small room.

I'm planning to get the Vizio 42" HD Plasma from Costco when it comes available on March 20. $1500 before taxes is a bargain and the perfect size to hang on the bedroom wall for TV and movies. I wouldn't mind CRT but it's way too bulky, too small, and takes up way too much room.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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What about plasmas?

The smallest that I could find available was 42", almost all of them were ED only displays and of course being plasma they are complete junk for gaming(they burn in VERY easily- look great for the first few hours- until you realize you have destroyed your set :p ).

In addition to that LCoS suffer from lack of contrast.

True, but from actual viewing of the SXRD it made every plasma on display look extremely poor- even when viewing scenes that were very dark. Much better presentation of blacks on the SXRD compared to any plasma I was able to check out(that was only a couple of dozen though).

I think Plasma and LCD TVs are good enough. I would get Plasma if the main focus was TV and movies. LCD TV if computer and games are more your focus.

I was mainly focusing on what is actually available rather then the theoretical pros and cons of each. Obviously CRTs ruthlessly obliterate the new age inferior tech products in almost every possible way save size and energy use, but due to the products currently being produced the difference isn't nearly as large as it should be. I am sorely let down by having to settle for 'good enough'.

I'm planning to get the Vizio 42" HD Plasma from Costco when it comes available on March 20. $1500 before taxes is a bargain and the perfect size to hang on the bedroom wall for TV and movies.

I would make sure you went and checked out the display for yourself before you commit to anything. I spent a lot of time looking at the claimed specs on a lot of sets only to get into stores and find that reality and the claimed specs didn't quite come together over what kind of IQ you were actually going to see. The Aquos line as an example has excellent specs, but after looking at it side by side with a lot of other displays I would rate it as 'absolute crap' even if it had a fire sale price(which it doesn't, not expensive but comparable to mid tier Sony and Panasonics).
 

JRW

Senior member
Jun 29, 2005
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I've heard the Samsung slimfit is plagued with geometry problems and other annoyances , Im curious why you didnt look at the Sony 30HS420 model, its pretty cheap and has a great picture ,Only downsides I noted were weak sound from its built in speakers (The sound quality on my 32HS510's speakers is far better) and no ATSC tuner.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
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OK...well...what about DLPs then? BTW - plasma burn-in nowadays isn't nearly as bad as it used to be. As long as you have big enough dot pitch (like lots of big TVs), screen door will occur on anything. My 27" CRT is about 500x worse for "screen door" than my 19" LCD is (at close distance). I'm still shocked you can see the individual pixels when you're sitting at least ten feet back (or are you?)
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
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I would make sure you went and checked out the display for yourself before you commit to anything. I spent a lot of time looking at the claimed specs on a lot of sets only to get into stores and find that reality and the claimed specs didn't quite come together over what kind of IQ you were actually going to see. The Aquos line as an example has excellent specs, but after looking at it side by side with a lot of other displays I would rate it as 'absolute crap' even if it had a fire sale price(which it doesn't, not expensive but comparable to mid tier Sony and Panasonics).

I'm not worried about the quality of Vizio plasma. I've seen their old ED plasma at Costco and Sams Club and they're not bad. This HD Plasma has better specs and uses the newer panel. Plus since I'm buying from Costco, I don't have to worry. I buy lot of stuff from Costco sight unseen through their website cause I know Costco backs it 100%. I'm tempted by the 42" Sceptre 1080P LCD Costco is going to sell in early March but it's slightly more expensive and I'm only going to be watching TV and movies. For that Plasma is superior to the LCD.
 

HomeyFoos

Senior member
Aug 22, 2005
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Either you have WAY to rigid a standard or you are simply being cheap. If you want to pay $1100 for an LCD, you are going to get low-tier LCD quality. If you want to pay $3000-$4000, you can get exactly what you are looking for. With your discerning taste, it could be several years before a 'tolerable' quality set falls into your price range. I'd get to Circuit City and pick up one of those 447lb 32" CRT's that take up an entire room and put some cooling fans in the bedroom for summer.









 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
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Hows it even possible to compare LCDs now to those from a few years ago when a few years ago when all the LCDs were small? And even then, the big LCDs now have way better contrast/black levels/response time/less screendoor than the smaller screens from a few years ago. The one thing I can see that's worse about the current lcd market is that there are some cheap noname brands now that didn't exist before and they make some crummy displays.

Plasmas are much the same as they were a few years ago.

DLP is way better because they have a reduced rainbow effect. On other most metrics, they're the same as before.

However, CRTs *are* going down the tubes as they are being abandoned.
 

theanimala

Senior member
May 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

The CRT front has certainly declined too. It looks like Matsushita and Mitsubishi have left the quality CRT market altogether. I found a couple of Taus on display, but they were clearly inferior to older models(which I already have one of in the house) although they are very cheap now. Sony seems to still be playing, but they haven't had a CRT comparable to Mitsu or Panasonics older models for a very long time and that doesn't appeared to have changed. I also checked out Samsungs new line of thin CRTs- they suffered from uneven pixel sizes across the screen and had considerably lower top level resolution then the better LCDs but they looked to be the best out of what was out there(comparing HD feeds- SD was eye gouging on the LCDs), they were also quite cheap.
.

Mitsubishi has been out of the CRT market forever now, at least 10 years. I hardly believe that a 10 year old analog set can compare with today's HDTV CRT's.

Regarding the Sony and that it doesn't compare with the Mitsu and Panny's, I agree with you there. The Sony 34XBR960 with the super fine pitch screen is an amazing set, and kills anything that those manufacturers ever made. The standard sony CRT 420 line is an ok set, a notch below the Pannys. But you really need to take a look at the Super Fine Pitch XBR from Sony. I have one, as well as an 32" LCD, and a DLP RPTV, and I can tell you that the 34" Sony easily kills all of the other sets.
 

justlnluck

Senior member
Jul 13, 2004
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I've heard good things about the new Westinghouse LCD screens. They are just coming out this month and include an ATSC tuner. There is a 27" and a 32" model. You can find more information on the AVS forums.
 

Demoth

Senior member
Apr 1, 2005
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We are at a very unique stage in display technology. As of right now, CRT is superior when it comes to PQ, cost, reliability and could be much closer in size to the other technology. For example, the Samsung HC-R4755, a good 47" CRT, weights about 87 pounds and is about 22 inches deep. If as much R & D and production care went into CRT as into plasma and LCD, the current CRTs would be as light weigt as DLP utilizing mirrors as the newer slim Samsung and Akai CRTs do and give a much better PQ without the moving parts issues and bulb replacement of DLP.

And I feel some manufacturers would be on this bandwagon of CRT because their cost versus profit would be quite high, but for one thing. SED will be superior to CRT in every way and will be ultimately cheaper to produce. Not to mention most producers are making a killing selling overpriced plasma or DLP bulbs. Ther es no incentive to make a very top quality CRT that would be light weight, support true 1080 input and have a hight PQ because most buyers could hold something like that a good 15 years and never need to go with a SED or late generation plasma or LED DLP.

For stores like Best Buy, it's a bottom line thing. They make far more selling a $2500 DLP then a $900 CRT. The markup difference is much higher not to mention the profit just based off the price difference. They have every reason to make sure the consumer does not see how good a HD CRT actually looks side by side with the 'newer' technology.

The transition from CRT to LCD in computer monitors and CRT to DLP, Plasma, and LCD for TVs is one rare case where technology transitioned from a superior to an inferior product, however, this will be temporary and within 4 years, will just be a fluke people will chuckle over.
 

erwos

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2005
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The first thing I thought when I read your rant was "where are you looking?" If by "B&M store", you mean "Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA, Sharper Image", and so forth, it's no surprise they look like trash. The employees there aren't trained to properly calibrate the displays, and 90% of the time, they can't even get the right source material. Then, you've also got viewing setting issues - is their showroom floor actually like your living room / home theater? Generally, the answer is no. I'm hardly a home theater expert, but you don't have to do much research to understand what to look for.

Smaller boutique stores are often better bets. Did you go to any of these?

-Erwos
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
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91
I've heard the Samsung slimfit is plagued with geometry problems and other annoyances

There is some minor issues on the exterior edges depending, mainly on feeds that don't fill the screen.

Im curious why you didnt look at the Sony 30HS420 model, its pretty cheap and has a great picture

I did, sitting right next to the Samsung. Contrast, sharpness and color all were much weaker on the Sony. It didn't appear to have any geometry issues that I saw unlike the Samsung, and it was quite a bit cheaper then the Sam, but overall the TXR3079WH produced much better IQ particularly on HD feeds.

Only downsides I noted were weak sound from its built in speakers

I couldn't tell you how most of my TVs speakers sounded- I make sure my displays have audio out and hook them up to external sound system.

What's wrong with somthing like this?
http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DynaFlatHDTV/TXR3075WHXXAA.asp

That's what I have in the bedrrom but I'm relacing it for a 42" or even a 50" plasma ( I have a big bedroom plus I watch old classics which with a 16:9 display is really only like a 32" TV when side bars appear with a 50" widescreen. )

That particular display didn't seem to handle HD feeds as well the the 3079. It seemed to have a noticeable fall off in sharpness compared to its sibling.

What about the Sharp AQUOS 32"? Those look to be pretty good to me . . .

I thought that the Aquos was one of the poorest looking displays available currently.

I'm not worried about the quality of Vizio plasma. I've seen their old ED plasma at Costco and Sams Club and they're not bad. This HD Plasma has better specs and uses the newer panel.

Comparing some older Panasonic ED models to a couple of their new HD models the older ones looked considerably better. Not saying it won't look great, I wouldn't have really mentioned it except that I spent a lot of time comparing supposedly inferior older displays to newer ones and the IQ just wasn't there on the 'better' panels.

Either you have WAY to rigid a standard or you are simply being cheap. If you want to pay $1100 for an LCD, you are going to get low-tier LCD quality.

I was considering the KDL-V26XBR1 and V32XBR1 from Sony, they had prices of $2K and ~$3K respectively- and they were the most expensive panels I could find in their size range.

If you want to pay $3000-$4000, you can get exactly what you are looking for.

Could you point me to a 26"- 30" HDTV in that price range that is actually good? As mentioned in my first post I really liked the looks of the SXRD Sony line and intend on picking one of those up for my main AV setup- the 60" model is actually $4.5K right now, but that is way too large for my bedroom.

Hows it even possible to compare LCDs now to those from a few years ago when a few years ago when all the LCDs were small?

I have been looking at small displays :)

Mitsubishi has been out of the CRT market forever now, at least 10 years. I hardly believe that a 10 year old analog set can compare with today's HDTV CRT's.

I have a Mitsu CRT sitting in front of me- produced in 2004.

But you really need to take a look at the Super Fine Pitch XBR from Sony.

I was, and they were the ones that I found to be the best out of the LCDs, no match for the SXRD LCoS- but better then any of the other LCDs I could find.

The first thing I thought when I read your rant was "where are you looking?" If by "B&M store", you mean "Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA, Sharper Image", and so forth, it's no surprise they look like trash.

Went to the chain B&Ms and the specialty stores. There really is next to no difference in price between them and in terms of the CRTs depressingly the chain stores had their sets calibrated better then all but one of the specialty shops(the boutique stores were trying to punch the brightness on CRTs to compare with the LCDs and using a huge red push- depressingly poor outside of one shop- at least they let me calibrate them myself to see how they really looked).

The transition from CRT to LCD in computer monitors and CRT to DLP, Plasma, and LCD for TVs is one rare case where technology transitioned from a superior to an inferior product, however, this will be temporary and within 4 years, will just be a fluke people will chuckle over.

God willing :D