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Poll: will humans ever move beyond religion?

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PaperclipGod

Banned
Apr 7, 2003
2,021
0
0
Originally posted by: CeruleanFall
Originally posted by: PaperclipGod
Originally posted by: Skoorb

As a catholic turned agnostic turned atheist, IMO there's nothing to "get." Why must your life or your experiences last forever? Are you really that important? Why do people have such a need to feel like an integral part of the universe? The vastness of the cosmos suggests just the opposite.

When you die, you end. What you are and what you have been is no more. Your thoughts do not mysteriously survive beyond the mushy synapses of your brain. That is our existence. Anyone who cannot come to terms with that is, IMO, living in denial. Live your life to the best of your ability. Make the most of it. Enjoy yourself. But do so without deluding yourself with visions of grandeur.

Thanks for sharing your point. I just wanted to say, that because religion didn't work out for you doesn't mean that you have the right to patronize everyone else. I have noticed people that were formerly religious feel like they have some level of entitlement, like since they were catholic at some point, they know everything there is to know, and since they decided to leave they can claim that the religion means nothing. That is flawed more than I could ever argue, or would want to for that matter. To say that someone is living in denial because they believe in something is close minded and hateful. I live my life by virtue, because of the church, what exactly am I in denial of? I'm not denying that your opinion is valid for you, and I know its OK for me to disagree. Maybe you're in denial that it is impossible for you alone to have figured out the world, and that others are entitled to their opinions.

Uhh... time for you to reread the post. Especially the places where i said "IMO". To most people, hearing someone say "in my opinion" doesnt warrant the response "IM ENTITLED TO AN OPINION TOO!!!"
I can only assume youre trying to convince yourself that your theistic choice is the right one.

That said, i find it pitiful that you live a virtuous life only "because of the church." Regardless of what your theology is, i find it disgusting and egotistical that the only reason you have for leading a good life is your feelings of obligation. That if you don't behave morally, you'll go to hell. That statement proves, in my opinion, my point quite well. Organized religion is for those people who simply cannot function without some supreme feeling of importance or entitlement. Some sense of a greater purpose. Grow up.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
When you die, you end. What you are and what you have been is no more. Your thoughts do not mysteriously survive beyond the mushy synapses of your brain. That is our existence. Anyone who cannot come to terms with that is, IMO, living in denial.
Unfortunately, paperclip, you have no proof of that. It's a best guess by you. You may be right. I hope you're not, because personally to me there seems little point in life if everything just _stops_ for one when they die. How can you really grieve for the loss of a loved one if they are just done with? So what about your feelings, because you'll be done with in time as well and be forgotten, so what's the point of it? Frankly, I'm not satisfied with the assertion that there is nothing beyond the tangible. And spiritually I've gone up and down over the years, and I still think that for many people organized religion is nothing more than an outlet for their own short sightedness, but atheism can be as well.

Even so-called atheists seem to have an integrated belief somewhere in their mind of something more. For example: How can an atheist who believes in nothing else feel "bad" about stealing something? Bad for what reason? They're helping themselves, so why not steal? How somebody on the one hand can adamently state that god doesn't exist and on the other condemn somebody for doing something that "just isn't right" (such as murder) does not make sense to me.

Nobody has it figured out, because to really figure something out you have to have all the facts, and none of us do. Everything else is just a guess.
 

Gyrene

Banned
Jun 6, 2002
2,841
0
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I believe in a higher being. Fate has played its part in my life too many times to count. If there was no higher being, where did the universe come from? The Big Bang? But where did the material for that come from? In my humble opinion, there has to be a higher being. My prayers have been answered and fate has shown me ways out of bad times. Of course, there are bad things that happen for, seemingly, no reason at all. But, there are reasons behind them, we just don't know yet. Science is wonderful, and it helps explain the things around us. But, where did everything come from originally? Whatever you believe, science or religion, you have to have blind faith, because we will never be able to prove it.
 

PowerMacG5

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2002
7,701
0
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I said "no, people will always believe in some form of god." because there will always be people who are not strong enough to move beyond the confines of religion. There are people like me who have left religion and the belief of god(s), but there are always people who don't have enough willpower to think outside of the box.
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
17
81
Originally posted by: TwinkleToes77
Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Originally posted by: iloveme2
I think that we may eventually abandon organized religion but I don't think humans as a whole will ever lose their belief in a higher being.

I agree. And I don't care if the person calls it God, or Allah, or Jesus, or Mother Nature. There has to be a higher being, cause if we are all there is, we are well and truly fvcked!

:)
thats how i feel too.
Uhhh...we are "fvcked" now even with the existence of your "supreme being". What would be any different?
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
17
81
Originally posted by: dtyn
I believe in a higher being. Fate has played its part in my life too many times to count. If there was no higher being, where did the universe come from? The Big Bang? But where did the material for that come from? In my humble opinion, there has to be a higher being. My prayers have been answered and fate has shown me ways out of bad times. Of course, there are bad things that happen for, seemingly, no reason at all. But, there are reasons behind them, we just don't know yet. Science is wonderful, and it helps explain the things around us. But, where did everything come from originally? Whatever you believe, science or religion, you have to have blind faith, because we will never be able to prove it.
Where did the higher being come from? :p
 

Gyrene

Banned
Jun 6, 2002
2,841
0
0
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: dtyn
I believe in a higher being. Fate has played its part in my life too many times to count. If there was no higher being, where did the universe come from? The Big Bang? But where did the material for that come from? In my humble opinion, there has to be a higher being. My prayers have been answered and fate has shown me ways out of bad times. Of course, there are bad things that happen for, seemingly, no reason at all. But, there are reasons behind them, we just don't know yet. Science is wonderful, and it helps explain the things around us. But, where did everything come from originally? Whatever you believe, science or religion, you have to have blind faith, because we will never be able to prove it.
Where did the higher being come from? :p
An even higher being ;)
 

Compudork

Senior member
Dec 9, 2002
490
0
76
Originally posted by: dtyn
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: dtyn
I believe in a higher being. Fate has played its part in my life too many times to count. If there was no higher being, where did the universe come from? The Big Bang? But where did the material for that come from? In my humble opinion, there has to be a higher being. My prayers have been answered and fate has shown me ways out of bad times. Of course, there are bad things that happen for, seemingly, no reason at all. But, there are reasons behind them, we just don't know yet. Science is wonderful, and it helps explain the things around us. But, where did everything come from originally? Whatever you believe, science or religion, you have to have blind faith, because we will never be able to prove it.
Where did the higher being come from? :p
An even higher being ;)
I think his official title is "the guy, behind the guy, behind the guy" a la the theological classic "Swingers"
 

PaperclipGod

Banned
Apr 7, 2003
2,021
0
0
Originally posted by: CeruleanFall
Some people need something to find direction. So what? What does that have to do with you? Maybe some people find virtue through the church, it seems like more than you have at this point. People find direction through other means, apparently this is a sign of weakness to you, but I suppose its better to have direction than to sit around all day judging other people for what they believe. It looks to me like you're the one looking to convince yourself with your shallow and childish responses. I said that I both appreciated your opinion and understood that it is valid for you, I only took issue with the fact that you were pushing your opinion in a way that degrades other people. Why do you feel the need to attack me? As you say "Organized religion is for those people who simply cannot function without some supreme feeling of importance or entitlement." So what gives you that sense of importance and entitlement, critisizing the beliefs of others online? Maybe just trying to hurt people's feelings?
If you need direction, thats fine. Take it. I just dont like the entire process... of having to need something to guide you on how to live your life. To have this 'reward' hung over your head to induce you to 'follow the rules'. Making yourself and those you care about happy should be enough of a guideline. Humanity should be intelligent enough to act amicably and cooperatively without relying on unproven promises of endless happiness and serenity. Think of every other religion besides the one you believe in - while many of them help people to lead good lives, many also cause people to act horrendously. How many wars have been fought in the name of a god? Wouldn't it be a better world if people helped each other not because it's what their religion teaches, but because it helps humanity as a whole? Helps our species advance and evolve? I can think of no way those kind of atheistic ideals could be used against humanity, or used in the name of war.


Originally posted by: CeruleanFall
Honestly, your response has really upset me. I suppose I provoked a response from you by asking questions in my first post, but I wasn't expecting you to use that as an opportunity to talk down to me or attack my character. Do I think I'm better than you because I follow religion and you don't? NO. And I don't see why my situation should concern you at all, you have no idea who I am. My likes, my dislikes. I have a beautiful girlfriend who is the center of my world, I would do anything for her. A smile on her face just puts me in this mood, as if I am above everything else, and the world cannot touch me. I can think of a million moments that we have spent together and each one puts a smile on my face. But you don't know that about me. You don't know who I am, so its easy to attack me. You don't know that I watched 3 members of my family die recently. You don't know about my love for the arts. You know nothing about me, and I know nothing about you. And its allegory for something larger. All of these arguments and fights strangers have online. We remain anonymous, so its easy to push to the extremes of one's personality and get lost in it. On that basis, it is idiotic that we are even arguing at all. I'm sure there is a lot about you that I would like, we could probably go out for a bite to eat and have a good conversation. But here we have one issue on our hands, one that is very sensitive. I'll be straightforward, I felt your approach was aggressive, I felt offended, and I responded. I was hurt, and on the defensive, so I attacked you. Its such a stupid cycle. I would just like to say, that I respect what you think, and whatever you need to say about me is 100% valid if its what you really believe. Its all superficial. We haven't learned anything or grown at all, and in reality I've only upset myself, became angry with you and acted foolishly. I hope you will accept my apologies, and I hope this argument ends here.
I think you should learn to embrace these types of arguments. I've found these anonymous confrontations to be the purest form of debate, because each side isnt afraid of saying exactly what they mean. Of course, you should also bring a certain amount of emotional detachment to these debates. Blunt statements should be expected... simply take them for what they are, ponder them, and move on. They can offer valuable insight into opposing viewpoints that you wouldnt normally get in a face to face conversation. In fact, if we met in person, we'd probably never even talk about religion. Just like politics, its simply not polite to talk to strangers about it... obviously feelings run deep. So take advantage of situations like this. Learn what you can, disagree, but dont let it actually affect you. Unlike a face to face debate, you can close your browser whenever you want, and go do something else.

 

PaperclipGod

Banned
Apr 7, 2003
2,021
0
0
Originally posted by: CeruleanFall
Originally posted by: PaperclipGod


If you need direction, thats fine. Take it. I just dont like the entire process... of having to need something to guide you on how to live your life. To have this 'reward' hung over your head to induce you to 'follow the rules'. Making yourself and those you care about happy should be enough of a guideline. Humanity should be intelligent enough to act amicably and cooperatively without relying on unproven promises of endless happiness and serenity. Think of every other religion besides the one you believe in - while many of them help people to lead good lives, many also cause people to act horrendously. How many wars have been fought in the name of a god? Wouldn't it be a better world if people helped each other not because it's what their religion teaches, but because it helps humanity as a whole? Helps our species advance and evolve? I can think of no way those kind of atheistic ideals could be used against humanity, or used in the name of war.
HEY-YO! Now thats what I am talking about!! See, you are a bright fellow, and you make great points here. Not to say you didn't before, but I guess I am more suited to take in this sort of conversation. I agree 100% with your happiness as a fitting guidline for living well. And really, I agree that happiness, respect and common human decency should be enough. But I also think that if someone NEEDS religion to get through it, then that is better than them loosing thier head and running around killing people. Religious guilt or restrictions may not always be the best (or healthiest) way to live right, but if it helps you peacefully coexist with others, then its good in my book!

I knew someone was going to bring up the religious wars point, someone always does!! And there is not a darn thing I can say to argue it. lol It is a salient point, especially considering that it is still happening today. I would never support that sort of use for religion, I was only tying to defend those who can help themselves live well with it. And yes, it would be optimal if people could live humanly based on some inherent understanding. At the same time, it is important to remember it is religion that originally taught us murder is wrong for example. This nation, as well as many others were built on a fundamental structure of rule thats originated in religion. In that way, one must credit religion for laying the groundwork, so that you and I know helping people is the right thing to do. Really, if one thinks back to the beginning of civilization, if there were no guildlines for living, then other people wouldn't matter, we would kill each other to get ahead because there would be nothing wrong with it. But really, in the context of this discussion that is a mute point. Religion has evolved over time, it has its benefits and drawbacks, but the only thing we can do is change ourselves to live the way we think is best, and hope that it rubs off on other people.

I think you should learn to embrace these types of arguments. I've found these anonymous confrontations to be the purest form of debate, because each side isnt afraid of saying exactly what they mean. Of course, you should also bring a certain amount of emotional detachment to these debates. Blunt statements should be expected... simply take them for what they are, ponder them, and move on. They can offer valuable insight into opposing viewpoints that you wouldnt normally get in a face to face conversation. In fact, if we met in person, we'd probably never even talk about religion. Just like politics, its simply not polite to talk to strangers about it... obviously feelings run deep. So take advantage of situations like this. Learn what you can, disagree, but dont let it actually affect you. Unlike a face to face debate, you can close your browser whenever you want, and go do something else.
I do embrace these types of arguments, I frequently have heated discussions in person with others. On rare occassions, they may nearly escalate into a physical confrontation or yelling match. Its all part of the fun. On that note, anonymous confrontations are benficial because they do allow people to open up without aprehension, but you have to realize this power is easily abused. I think sharing you're opinions without fear is great, but too many take the opportunity to attack others, and that is not the point. Maybe it bothers me more because I don't have to deal with it in real life. I'm a fit 23 years old, stand 6'5" tall and weigh 230 pounds, so believe me, you are more right than you know when you say people wouldn't oppose me face to face as they would online (and just like closing my browser, I can make it lights out for someone else real quick if it bothers me, and yes I know this is not very Christian of me). I think it is very true that I need to approach things like this with more disconnection personally, but at the same time, I have to say that I think maybe you could have approached it with more tact, IMO. While people like me need to be less sensitive, remaining anonymous is not an excuse for others to speak harsly, or act with no regard for the feelings of others. But its been fun and educational all....
I think we should settle this with a rl fight. I'm 20, 6'5", 245lbs. :Q

 

PaperclipGod

Banned
Apr 7, 2003
2,021
0
0
Originally posted by: CeruleanFall
I think we should settle this with a rl fight. I'm 20, 6'5", 245lbs. :Q

LOL!! We could have the first annual "Anandtech Battle of the Titans"!! My grandfather was a boxer, so watch out the Slovak thunder is in my blood! lol Out of curiosity, do you play any sports?? I'm big into Rugby, and there's nothing better than a big ol' rugger in my opinion. Its a long shot, but a fella of your size could probably do some good damage!

Oh yea, and what is an rl fight?
haha... my dad was a wimp. :p

I dont play any sports, just lift weights. Havent been in a fight since jr high, though....

rl = real life ;)
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: KraziKid
I said "no, people will always believe in some form of god." because there will always be people who are not strong enough to move beyond the confines of religion. There are people like me who have left religion and the belief of god(s), but there are always people who don't have enough willpower to think outside of the box.
yea but hopefully those people will be viewed as insane
 

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