<Poll> Who thinks it is the Gov'ts responsibility to provide health-care?

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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With the talk of a prescription drug-benefit and some Dem presidential hopefuls talking about 'universal' healthcare, I'm curious on how many/what percentage thinks it is the govt's responsibility to provide cradle-to-grave health-care?

The reason this strikes me as funny is because of the inherent distrust of the government caused by such proposals as the privacy invading Total Infomation Awareness program, the cost over-runs caused by Medicare, the ponzi scheme known as Social Security, and on and on.

Why would people want to give more power to the government and more access to our personal information?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Who thinks it is the Gov'ts responsibility to provide health-care?

Depends on which government you're referring to. If it's somewhere like Canada, then i'd say the answer (per their choice) is yes. If it's the United States, then hell no.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
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Originally posted by: glenn1
Who thinks it is the Gov'ts responsibility to provide health-care?

Depends on which government you're referring to. If it's somewhere like Canada, then i'd say the answer (per their choice) is yes. If it's the United States, then hell no.

I'm speaking in general terms but more from an American perspective.
 

kaizersose

Golden Member
May 15, 2003
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america was supposed to be the place where people could go to free themselves of the bonds of the state and live their lives the way they saw fit. if people want the govt to wipe your a$$ for you their are many nice european countries which will happily oblige. this is not "like it or leave it mentality" just an understanding of what principles america was founded on and what you are getting into living here.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Originally posted by: kaizersose
america was supposed to be the place where people could go to free themselves of the bonds of the state and live their lives the way they saw fit. if people want the govt to wipe your a$$ for you their are many nice european countries which will happily oblige. this is not "like it or leave it mentality" just an understanding of what principles america was founded on and what you are getting into living here.

In canada you can buy supplemental coverage for otimum care so the governemnt does'nt wipe your booty. u think we should do away with immunizations too? NIH everything else publically funded realted to peoples health? No maybe it's you who should get used to the idea SOME type of universal basic care will come about here if companies continue thier cost cutting ways on insurance and benefits. Hard to believe people are even talking about it...30 years ago you'd be looked at like a crazy man if you suggested it... how times change. I think we already have universal health care now NO? It just costs more now because so many middle men and private insurances are latching on along the way.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
I think the Government needs to protect the people from Private Sector Healthcare.. and regulate certain pricing.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
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Originally posted by: dahunan
I think the Government needs to protect the people from Private Sector Healthcare.. and regulate certain pricing.

Yep... the government should regulate the healthcare sector just like it does every other industry. However, it is not the U.S. government's resonsibility to provide healthcare. We are not entitled to free healthcare, thank goodness.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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81
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: dahunan
I think the Government needs to protect the people from Private Sector Healthcare.. and regulate certain pricing.

Yep... the government should regulate the healthcare sector just like it does every other industry. However, it is not the U.S. government's resonsibility to provide healthcare. We are not entitled to free healthcare, thank goodness.

Don't we already have "free" health care?
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
I voted yes but IMO private/socialized healthcare has nothing to do with ideology.

The most important thing for me is that I get high quality heatlhcare for a decent prize.

If the private sector can provide that for me I have absolutely no problems with it. But if my govt. can do the same thing cheaper and more efficiently I take the socialized heatlhcare.

btw: the privacy thing for socialized healthcare is a non-issue. For all you know your private insurer is selling your info. They are in the healthcare business to make a profit, not because out of solidarity.

In Belgium when you are born you get a sis card. It's a card with a chip on it (pic). When you go to a doctor, hospital or a a pharmacy you just sweep the thing through a reader.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Before most of you were born, it was possible to see a doctor, and be treated according to the standards of medical practice of the day. You did not need insurance. The doc might take a chicken or two in payment. People who had little money could still get house calls. In truth, there was little that could be done for many things, and treatment was much easier because options were limited. Because that was so, businesses began to offer health insurance to workers. It was an incentive to stay or come to a corporation and cost little. Eventually, competition for workers caused it to become commonplace. It was cheap, so why not? What this did was provide a pool of money that fueled technology. Gradually, treatments and diagnosis became better, but as they did they became more expensive. Attorneys began to get in on the act as well, and the unheard practice of sueing MDs for millions became an industry as well. Everything became better and more expensive. Now again, this did not happen all at once. MRIs became something hospitals were expected to have, at least major opportunities.
People who were paying cash a generation before for medication put out perhaps an hours wages to do so. Now it takes a weeks. In the case of some of the elderly and others with serious illness, it might take two months income to provide one months medication. Because of money, we got better medicine, but better medicine takes more money. It fuels itself.

So now we have a problem and no one will like the solution.

1) End medical progress. Accept that this is all we can afford, and leave it at that.

2) Continue as we are, and accept a two or more tiered health care system. The best techniques and medications for the wealthy and powerful. A mediocre system, basically frozen where it is now for the masses, and perhaps no health care for the destitute.

3) Government involvement. This can take the form of goverment providing health care or become the primary insurer. Either have disadvantages, but I think it will come down to this option.


Why?

Option 1- End medical progress. It could be forced I suppose, but telling people that the end of medical research is a good thing is going to be a hard sell.

Option 2- Picture this. A three tiered health care system. Lets call it Gold, Silver, and Bronze coverage, although in reality it may be more subtle. We certainly are down this path at least a bit now.

You- "My son is sick, I think he's dying".
Doc-"Sorry, but he has Condition X. Nothing we can do."
You-"But my boss has a son with the same thing. He is doing much better"
Doc-"Yes, but his treatment requires expensive therapy and medication, you do not have the resources to pay for it. He does."
You- "But wait, tens of thousands of kids have this, you mean they die if they arent from wealth?"
Doc- At this point, the doc goes into a long explanation into the "system" and that they can do something, which is ease his pain while he dies.

Now you either say OK that makes sense, or you are madder than hell. I bet it is the second.

So that leaves option three, unless someone can come up with something better and glib statements about how great we are here in america doesnt cut it.


Will govt being involved in medicine be all good? NO. It will create a huge bureaucracy running medicine for politics. I cringe at that thought. Somehow, politics would have to be kept out of what would be a political bureaucracy, and I don't know if american style govt can do that.

The alternative is that health care gets too expensive, and eventually you will lose coverage. Employeers are right now, not in the future trying to figure out how to ditch health insurance. You can bet on it. You will suddenly become a convert for "socialized medicine" when that day happens.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
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Why does Canada have it and the US doesn't? Am I right when I say it's because that's the way Canada wants it? If the American people ever decide that it wants it, then we should have it, right? As long as the American people are against it, then we shouldn't have it.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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Originally posted by: dahunan
I think the Government needs to protect the people from Private Sector Healthcare.. and regulate certain pricing.
the insurance industry is already one of the heaviest regulated industries in this country. the pricing is regulated. by the states, which are the proper gov'ts to do so.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
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It's government's job to create conditions so that healthcare is available and affordable to everyone. It's an essential service like electricity or water. The healthcare industry's job is to maximize return to their shareholders, not provide affordable coverage.
Therefore, the government needs to step in and regulate the industry, impose price controls, and subsidize healthcare for those who can't afford it. It should be kind of like the financial aid system for college, with means tests to determine the levels of support.
I think it's ridiculous to spend billions fighting wars to "protect" Americans, while letting many more of them die from preventable conditions that aren't caught in time due to lack of insurance.
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
Originally posted by: SuperTool
It's government's job to create conditions so that healthcare is available and affordable to everyone. It's an essential service like electricity or water. The healthcare industry's job is to maximize return to their shareholders, not provide affordable coverage.
Therefore, the government needs to step in and regulate the industry, impose price controls, and subsidize healthcare for those who can't afford it. It should be kind of like the financial aid system for college, with means tests to determine the levels of support.
I think it's ridiculous to spend billions fighting wars to "protect" Americans, while letting many more of them die from preventable conditions that aren't caught in time due to lack of insurance.

I couldn't agree more.

I have always been irritated that there are working Americans who can't afford health insurance....yet this country gives millions in medical aid to foreign countries....paid in part by those same working Americans!
:disgust:
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: dahunan
I think the Government needs to protect the people from Private Sector Healthcare.. and regulate certain pricing.
the insurance industry is already one of the heaviest regulated industries in this country. the pricing is regulated. by the states, which are the proper gov'ts to do so.

If you mean regualted like you can't sue an HMO for dening you a proceedure or huge barriers to entry so it's a virtual monopoly which costs consumers more you're right. If you mean they are in some way protecting mom and pop your wrong.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: dahunan
I think the Government needs to protect the people from Private Sector Healthcare.. and regulate certain pricing.
the insurance industry is already one of the heaviest regulated industries in this country. the pricing is regulated. by the states, which are the proper gov'ts to do so.

If you mean regualted like you can't sue an HMO for dening you a proceedure or huge barriers to entry so it's a virtual monopoly which costs consumers more you're right. If you mean they are in some way protecting mom and pop your wrong.

Here's the sort of irony that can only happen with governments. HMOs were created by the federal government to regulate health insurance and was promised to bring health and happiness to all. Now, the very same government is railing against what IT created and saying that it is failing, costs too much, etc. Their solution? More government control of the health industry.

I would much rather see tort reform regarding trial lawyers suing the health care industry for vast amounts of money. That would prove very beneficial to insurance rates.

I would also like to see ala cart health insurance options.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I would much rather see tort reform regarding trial lawyers suing the health care industry for vast amounts of money.

I agree. I don't much like the idea of caps though because the most egregiuos cases of malace or incompitance need a stiff and unknowing punative penalty to act a deterance and just compensation for it's victims. I like looser pays in every suit (including crimminal cases) because plantiffs would think twice and make sure they had a case before prosecuting it. Also get rid of the jurors:p I mean is it really your peers sitting there? Case I was on only 2 had full time jobs and all seemed a little short or a six pack. I have no idea how they decide complex medical malpractice or patent cases. (yes I do.. emotion wins which is unfortunate and big money) One thing I think we could take from our european and Japanese friends is the idea of professional jurors..Three judges who specialize on that field decide the case. Do these things would make america business/medicine/courts a better place. IMHO.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
It's government's job to create conditions so that healthcare is available and affordable to everyone. It's an essential service like electricity or water. The healthcare industry's job is to maximize return to their shareholders, not provide affordable coverage.
Therefore, the government needs to step in and regulate the industry, impose price controls, and subsidize healthcare for those who can't afford it. It should be kind of like the financial aid system for college, with means tests to determine the levels of support.
I think it's ridiculous to spend billions fighting wars to "protect" Americans, while letting many more of them die from preventable conditions that aren't caught in time due to lack of insurance.

How can one maximize profits by keeping coverage out of range of the consumer?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: SuperTool
It's government's job to create conditions so that healthcare is available and affordable to everyone. It's an essential service like electricity or water. The healthcare industry's job is to maximize return to their shareholders, not provide affordable coverage.
Therefore, the government needs to step in and regulate the industry, impose price controls, and subsidize healthcare for those who can't afford it. It should be kind of like the financial aid system for college, with means tests to determine the levels of support.
I think it's ridiculous to spend billions fighting wars to "protect" Americans, while letting many more of them die from preventable conditions that aren't caught in time due to lack of insurance.

How can one maximize profits by keeping coverage out of range of the consumer?

Well most people care about themselves and thier loved ones and will pay whatever the "going" rate is to insure thier health. there lies the problem. With just a few companies they can collude and charge what they will. All seem to make a profit. Seems strange to me when automakers and just about every other industry has loosers on a quarterly basis. Then when they do get in trouble like during hurricane andrew the governemnt bails them out.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: SuperTool
It's government's job to create conditions so that healthcare is available and affordable to everyone. It's an essential service like electricity or water. The healthcare industry's job is to maximize return to their shareholders, not provide affordable coverage.
Therefore, the government needs to step in and regulate the industry, impose price controls, and subsidize healthcare for those who can't afford it. It should be kind of like the financial aid system for college, with means tests to determine the levels of support.
I think it's ridiculous to spend billions fighting wars to "protect" Americans, while letting many more of them die from preventable conditions that aren't caught in time due to lack of insurance.

How can one maximize profits by keeping coverage out of range of the consumer?

Well most people care about themselves and thier loved ones and will pay whatever the "going" rate is to insure thier health. there lies the problem. With just a few companies they can collude and charge what they will. All seem to make a profit. Seems strange to me when automakers and just about every other industry has loosers on a quarterly basis. Then when they do get in trouble like during hurricane andrew the governemnt bails them out.


But the point was, if the rates are not affordable, profits cannot be maximized(no one could buy).

 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
its obvious the pharmaceutical companies are ripping their customers off.