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Poll: Which is more important:

If you don't understand the process, how do you get to the outcome? Unless you're one of those people who say "Get it done by any means possible."
 
Originally posted by: minendo
Originally posted by: Wuffsunie
Is this a thinly veiled "ends justify the means" argument?
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Actually this is a question that pretty makes or breaks an interview.
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My answer probably wouldn't have pleased a panel of police officers, had they asked me that on Thursday. 😉
 
The process occurs to reach an outcome. If you can reach the desired outcome w/o the process, then fine.

dfi
 
the process

if you are working in a group and the process is good but the result is not then the group can work together again to get the desired results
then if the process is bad but the results are good then the group cant work together regardless of the results, a one shot thing
 
Neither is more deserving. They should both be treated the same.

THe outcome is more important however as processees are worthless after the outcome becomes reality without the possibility of change


Honestly that was a sh!tty question. The social aspects of such a complex topic are completely different than the commercial / work-rrelated aspects.


Commerce is based on results.

Society is based on progress.


 
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Are you asking if the ends justify the means?

No.
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The fact is that you are comparing social and commercial enviroments.

That is foolish at best as they operate on different principle.


The end CAN justify the means just as easily as it cannot. Stop arguing over a self-inflicted paradox.


THe fact remains that socially, there is no "end" as familes continue to reproduce etc, at least for the most part.

Commerically, Businesses are like viruses. They need to infect or they jsut die out. THis is why the means are many times irrelevant. Many times it comes down to unethical measn that people are willing to go through with for gain or plain survival.

Stop arguing,. YOu are making hte job of google's bots jsut that mcuh harder.


<---trying to stay on the bots' good side.
 
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
It depends on what you're talking about. But from an office perspective, the process is more important.
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Not necessarily.


If we are taking aboutend results of the same caliber and of the same finesses, why would means even matter after if it were lets say, a simple project that was done for a client and is never to be dealed with again? {run-on heaven 😀}
 
Commerically, Businesses are like viruses. They need to infect or they jsut die out. THis is why the means are many times irrelevant. Many times it comes down to unethical measn that people are willing to go through with for gain or plain survival.
Click to expand...

Heh, man, that's why I love the government. Paper trail, paper trail, paper trail. As long as you've crossed all your t's and dotted all your i's, you're fine. You can't die, because you have a guaranteed budget. If you didn't get it done, hey, at least you tried, and you filled out all the forms and talked to all the right people in the process. That's why there's an office that's been trying to assess handicap accessibility compliance with the ADA since I believe the mid-70's with no success, but that's okay, because they're trying.
😉
 
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
It depends on what you're talking about. But from an office perspective, the process is more important.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.


If we are taking aboutend results of the same caliber and of the same finesses, why would means even matter after if it were lets say, a simple project that was done for a client and is never to be dealed with again? {run-on heaven 😀}
Click to expand...

Because here's your government task. Your boss tells you he wants 17" monitors for the office. Okay, no problem. You have to buy monitor A because it's on the GSA preferred schedule. However, monitor A is not an approved hardware upgrade by headquarters command; monitor B is. However, you can't get monitor B for less than a thousand dollars a piece from a GSA preferred schedule, which your boss will not approve. You submit a waiver form to headquarters command; months pass. Nothing happens. You tell your boss you've submitted all the paperwork, yet they haven't gotten back to you, and you've successfully covered your ass. You cannot buy monitor A because you will sure as sh!t get in trouble if you order a monitor that is not available from a preferred supplier, or monitor B because it is not an approved hardware upgrade. In this case, the process (making sure you get all forms filled out and permission from everyone before you proceed) is more important than getting the monitor, no matter the cost. 🙂
 
In terms of real-world importance, of course the end result is more important.

However, I enjoy the process far more.
 
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Are you asking if the ends justify the means?

No.
Click to expand...

The fact is that you are comparing social and commercial enviroments.

That is foolish at best as they operate on different principle.


The end CAN justify the means just as easily as it cannot. Stop arguing over a self-inflicted paradox.


THe fact remains that socially, there is no "end" as familes continue to reproduce etc, at least for the most part.

Commerically, Businesses are like viruses. They need to infect or they jsut die out. THis is why the means are many times irrelevant. Many times it comes down to unethical measn that people are willing to go through with for gain or plain survival.

Stop arguing,. YOu are making hte job of google's bots jsut that mcuh harder.


<---trying to stay on the bots' good side.
Click to expand...

I read your reply two times and I am not sure I understand what your point is.

How is my post "foolish"?

Does the end always justify the means?

NO.
 
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Are you asking if the ends justify the means?

No.
Click to expand...

The fact is that you are comparing social and commercial enviroments.

That is foolish at best as they operate on different principle.


The end CAN justify the means just as easily as it cannot. Stop arguing over a self-inflicted paradox.


THe fact remains that socially, there is no "end" as familes continue to reproduce etc, at least for the most part.

Commerically, Businesses are like viruses. They need to infect or they jsut die out. THis is why the means are many times irrelevant. Many times it comes down to unethical measn that people are willing to go through with for gain or plain survival.

Stop arguing,. YOu are making hte job of google's bots jsut that mcuh harder.


<---trying to stay on the bots' good side.
Click to expand...

I read your reply two times and I am not sure I understand what your point is.

How is my post "foolish"?

Does the end always justify the means?

NO.
Click to expand...

Like I have written, it is iffy at best.

If judge the end i nterms of an overall accomplishment, the ends might justify the means. Then the issue of whos point of view you addressing the issue tthrough.

It is a pardox becuase human/animal nature conflict with the developed epathy and complex decision making that we take for granted.

Does the end always justify the means?

It is unanswerable as a universal question because the degree of varience in terms of social and economic standings for the worlds populous is so great. Since much of world is somewhat undeveloped itellectually, the means are not as highly critiques as they are in developed portions of the world.




 
For me, the process. Using medicine for an example, it doesn't matter if you do everything right, you can't save everyone. There's a factor governing life that's out of our control (whether that be luck, fate, or God is up to you), but you need to understand that process so that you can save the ones who can be saved. Sometimes it's just their time to go, but without the correct process you will save far less than you would if you used the correct process.
 
Originally posted by: DrNoobie
For me, the process. Using medicine for an example, it doesn't matter if you do everything right, you can't save everyone. There's a factor governing life that's out of our control (whether that be luck, fate, or God is up to you), but you need to understand that process so that you can save the ones who can be saved. Sometimes it's just their time to go, but without the correct process you will save far less than you would if you used the correct process.
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Well, continuing medicine as an example, the process is the process of healing those who can be saved (and even those who can't). The desired outcome is to save everyone who can be saved. Now if you can automagically cure everyone who can be saved, without the process of healing, then why not?

dfi
 
depends on what your trying to accomplish.

scrubbin toilets? who gives a sh!t how, just get them clean.

starting a company? what good is it to get the doors open if youve overworked all your employees and pissed off business associates just to get open to turn a profit when the business will have a great chance of failing statistically anyway.
 
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