[POLL] Welcome to the Nanny-State...

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,507
20,127
146
...please leave your freedoms and privacy at the door...

:disgust:

Schools Testing for Tobacco

By GREG GIUFFRIDA
The Associated Press


VESTAVIA HILLS, Ala. (Oct. 7) - Breath mints won't cut it anymore for students who have been smoking in the bathroom - some schools around the country are administering urine tests to teenagers to find out whether they have been using tobacco.

Opponents say such testing violates students' rights and can keep them out of the extracurricular activities they need to stay on track. But some advocates say smoking in the boys' room is a ticket to more serious drug use.

''Some addicted drug users look back to cigarettes as the start of it all,'' said Jeff McAlpin, director of marketing for EDPM, a Birmingham drug-testing company.

Short of catching them in the act, school officials previously had no way of proving students had been smoking.

Testing students for drugs has spread in recent years and was given a boost in June when the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed random testing of those in extracurricular activities. Tobacco can easily be added to the usual battery of tests.

''I agree with it,'' said 16-year-old Vestavia Hills High School junior Rosemary Stafford, a member of the marching band. ''It's illegal, it's addictive. Maybe the punishment shouldn't be as severe, but they should test for it.''

In Alabama, where the legal age for purchasing and smoking tobacco products is 19, about a dozen districts, mostly in the Birmingham area, test for nicotine along with alcohol and several illegal drugs, including marijuana.

In most cases, the penalties for testing positive for cotinine - a metabolic byproduct that remains in the body after smoking or chewing tobacco - are the same as those for illegal drugs: The student's parents are notified and he or she is usually placed on school probation and briefly suspended from sports or other activities.

Alabama's Hoover school system randomly tested 679 of its 1,500 athletes for drug use this past school year. Fourteen high school students tested positive, 12 of them for tobacco.

Elsewhere around the country, schools in Blackford County, Ind., test for tobacco use in athletes, participants in other extracurricular activities, and students who take driver's education or apply for parking permits.

In Lockney, Texas, a federal judge recently struck down the district's testing of all students for the use of drugs, alcohol and tobacco.

In Columbia County, Fla., the school board will vote Tuesday on a testing policy that would include tobacco. Teenagers who take part in extracurricular activities or apply for permits to drive to school would be screened.

''Tobacco does and will affect a larger majority of the students than alcohol or drugs,'' said Gloria Spizey, the county's coordinator for Safe and Drug-Free Schools. ''Tobacco use can be devastating. We felt it needed to stand with the other drugs.''

Screenings can detect cotinine for up to 10 days in regular smokers of about a half a pack, or 10 cigarettes, a day, McAlpin said. Experts say it is unlikely that cotinine would collect in people exposed to secondhand smoke.

''Tobacco is illegal for them to have - it's also a health and safety issue,'' said Phil Hastings, supervisor of safety and alternative education for schools in Decatur, which recently adopted a testing program that includes tobacco. ''We've got a responsibility to let the kids know the dangers of tobacco use.''

While random drug testing overall is being fought by the American Civil Liberties Union and students' rights groups, the addition of nicotine testing has drawn little opposition.

Guidelines published last month by the White House drug office do not specifically address tobacco testing.

''On tobacco, we have the same policy as on testing for drugs - it may not be right for every school and community,'' said Jennifer de Vallance, press secretary for the office. ''We encourage parents and officials to assess the extent and nature of the tobacco problem.''

Shawn Heller, executive director of Students for Sensible Drug Policy in Washington, said tobacco use by teen-agers is a major problem, but testing for it is just another step in the invasion of students' privacy.

''We're making schools like prisons,'' he said.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Kids smoking on school grounds is a school problem, kids smoking in general is a parent problem.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
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0
Amused,

I agree with you (presumably) that this should be a parental issue first and foremost, but the government should not allow the kids of negligent parents to go down a dangerous path toward addiction if they still can. What kind of a teaching environment would it be if kids were constantly smoking and influencing others? Don't teachers have the right to a safe work environment at the very least?

As for your recurring freedom argument... well, are we talking the kids or the parents here? Who's getting tested? If you're busting into your own 12 year old kid's room if you suspect him of using drugs, does the same reasoning apply? Why or why not?
 

Fausto

Elite Member
Nov 29, 2000
26,521
2
0
I swear, the whole "gateway drug" theory is completely asinine. What's gonna be the next "gateway"? Mountain Dew? It contains caffeine, right? I knew plenty of kids in HS who were caffeine junkies....only a matter of time until they graduate to Smack and Crack and become prostitutes to support their habit, right?
rolleye.gif


This is a parenting issue IMO, because you're talking about a drug that is legal/illegal based solely on age. Point being: regardless of what kind of stupid testing regimen you put these kids through, they're going to have legal access to smokes later down the road in life and will need to make a decision at that point based on information.....not based on having their wrists slapped. It's no different than alcohol. They're gonna have access to it and they're gonna try it. All you can do is arm them with good information and hope they make good choices.

PS- Amused: I very much enjoy reading your contributions to ATOT and generally respect your opinion, but if you use the term "nanny-state" in one more thread, I'm calling in the killer mutant clown airstrike. K? ;)
 

Torghn

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2001
2,171
0
76
Originally posted by: Czar
Kids smoking on school grounds is a school problem, kids smoking in general is a parent problem.

There you have it.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,507
20,127
146
Originally posted by: Fausto1
I swear, the whole "gateway drug" theory is completely asinine. What's gonna be the next "gateway"? Mountain Dew? It contains caffeine, right? I knew plenty of kids in HS who were caffeine junkies....only a matter of time until they graduate to Smack and Crack and become prostitutes to support their habit, right?
rolleye.gif


This is a parenting issue IMO, because you're talking about a drug that is legal/illegal based solely on age. Point being: regardless of what kind of stupid testing regimen you put these kids through, they're going to have legal access to smokes later down the road in life and will need to make a decision at that point based on information.....not based on having their wrists slapped. It's no different than alcohol. They're gonna have access to it and they're gonna try it. All you can do is arm them with good information and hope they make good choices.

PS- Amused: I very much enjoy reading your contributions to ATOT and generally respect your opinion, but if you use the term "nanny-state" in one more thread, I'm calling in the killer mutant clown airstrike. K? ;)

I agree on the "gateway" nonsense. It's meaningless, backwards logic. Kids who use tobacco and pot are more likely to use other drugs NOT because they used tobacco and pot, but because they are willing to take risks, and are rebellious. To blame the substance instead of the person is ridiculous.

As for "nanny-state" if you can come up with a better term for a government that passes laws "for your own good" and to protect you from yourself, please let me know. :)
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,507
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146
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Amused,

I agree with you (presumably) that this should be a parental issue first and foremost, but the government should not allow the kids of negligent parents to go down a dangerous path toward addiction if they still can. What kind of a teaching environment would it be if kids were constantly smoking and influencing others? Don't teachers have the right to a safe work environment at the very least?

As for your recurring freedom argument... well, are we talking the kids or the parents here? Who's getting tested? If you're busting into your own 12 year old kid's room if you suspect him of using drugs, does the same reasoning apply? Why or why not?

If I'm not mistaken, children have the same constitutional rights as adults. Now, the parents can violate these rights (actually, it's not a violation), but the government cannot. Constitutional rights apply only to government actions, in case you hadn't read the Constitution. In fact, no where in the Bill of Rights do I see an age restriction or exemption.

If you think the children are being abused, punish the parents, not the kids... and don't violate their right to privacy simply "for their own good."

And please, tell me, how is a teacher not safe if little Johnny lights up off school property?
 

ATLien247

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2000
4,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Fausto1
I swear, the whole "gateway drug" theory is completely asinine. What's gonna be the next "gateway"? Mountain Dew? It contains caffeine, right? I knew plenty of kids in HS who were caffeine junkies....only a matter of time until they graduate to Smack and Crack and become prostitutes to support their habit, right?
rolleye.gif

Well, your "theory" is also completely asinine. Last time I checked, you didn't have to be a certain age to buy Mountain Dew...

 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,507
20,127
146
Originally posted by: ATLien247
Originally posted by: Fausto1
I swear, the whole "gateway drug" theory is completely asinine. What's gonna be the next "gateway"? Mountain Dew? It contains caffeine, right? I knew plenty of kids in HS who were caffeine junkies....only a matter of time until they graduate to Smack and Crack and become prostitutes to support their habit, right?
rolleye.gif

Well, your "theory" is also completely asinine. Last time I checked, you didn't have to be a certain age to buy Mountain Dew...

WTF does one have to do with the other??? Does the artificial age limit impossed by government make caffeine any less a drug?
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: ATLien247
Originally posted by: Fausto1
I swear, the whole "gateway drug" theory is completely asinine. What's gonna be the next "gateway"? Mountain Dew? It contains caffeine, right? I knew plenty of kids in HS who were caffeine junkies....only a matter of time until they graduate to Smack and Crack and become prostitutes to support their habit, right?
rolleye.gif

Well, your "theory" is also completely asinine. Last time I checked, you didn't have to be a certain age to buy Mountain Dew...


It isn't assinine, when you consider that it is always a possibility. FDA is starting to crack down on ephedra again. Caffeine may be next.
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,801
581
126
Originally posted by: Czar
Kids smoking on school grounds is a school problem, kids smoking in general is a parent problem.
Ding! Ding! Ding!

What a fvcking waste of money this is. Why don't we use schools and school funding for what it is intended for: educating! What a f'ing concept. :| Deviating onto prevention pathes that detract resources from education leave kids with much of the emptiness at school that starts these kind of things to begin with. Sometimes I think kids wouldn't act like criminals if we didn't treat them like criminals.
 

ATLien247

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2000
4,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused

WTF does one have to do with the other??? Does the artificial age limit impossed by government make caffeine any less a drug?

It wasn't my comparison... it was Fausto's.
rolleye.gif


And caffeine is "less of a drug" than nicotine because the FDA says as much.

Besides, we're not talking about the FDA here, we're debating State responsibility vs. Parental responsibility. If the State is already testing for other substances, what would it hurt to test for other substances? Afterall, it is illegal to smoke under a certain age.

Why not "nip it in the bud"?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,507
20,127
146
Originally posted by: ATLien247
Originally posted by: Amused

WTF does one have to do with the other??? Does the artificial age limit impossed by government make caffeine any less a drug?

It wasn't my comparison... it was Fausto's.
rolleye.gif


And caffeine is "less of a drug" than nicotine because the FDA says as much.

Besides, we're not talking about the FDA here, we're debating State responsibility vs. Parental responsibility. If the State is already testing for other substances, what would it hurt to test for other substances? Afterall, it is illegal to smoke under a certain age.

Why not "nip it in the bud"?

Why not put the responsibility where it belongs: with the parents? Why should the state be testing for anything, much less legal substances? The state shouldn't be nipping anything in the bud when it comes to self destructive behavior.

And saying something is "less of a drug because the FDA says so" tops everything. The FDA says pot is more dangerous than alcohol and tobacco.
 

ATLien247

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2000
4,597
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Originally posted by: Amused

Why not put the responsibility where it belongs: with the parents? Why should the state be testing for anything, much less legal substances? The state shouldn't be nipping anything in the bud when it comes to self destructive behavior.

And saying something is "less of a drug because the FDA says so" tops everything. The FDA says pot is more dangerous than alcohol and tobacco.

When you were a kid, did your parents screen you for drugs?

I won't argue that the State should be screening for anything. The point is that they already are, and probably for a reason.

And regardless of what you think about the FDA, until you can get a law passed otherwise, what they say is what usually governs the rest of us here in the real world.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
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Originally posted by: Czar
Kids smoking on school grounds is a school problem, kids smoking in general is a parent problem.

yep
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Czar
Kids smoking on school grounds is a school problem, kids smoking in general is a parent problem.

yep

Yep. Let the parents handle it.

EDIT: let me clarify... when I become a parent, I plan to uphold my children's rights. If I catch them smoking, I will punish them on my own. If their school tests them for it, I will politely (with my lawyer by my side) ask them to butt out of my child's personal life and let me handle it on my own. If they catch him/her smoking on the school grounds, however, that is well within their power to deal with.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,507
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146
Originally posted by: ATLien247
Originally posted by: Amused

Why not put the responsibility where it belongs: with the parents? Why should the state be testing for anything, much less legal substances? The state shouldn't be nipping anything in the bud when it comes to self destructive behavior.

And saying something is "less of a drug because the FDA says so" tops everything. The FDA says pot is more dangerous than alcohol and tobacco.

When you were a kid, did your parents screen you for drugs?

I won't argue that the State should be screening for anything. The point is that they already are, and probably for a reason.

And regardless of what you think about the FDA, until you can get a law passed otherwise, what they say is what usually governs the rest of us here in the real world.

You remind me of the "that's the way things have always been" story about the monkeys in a cage.

The state is screening for drugs because parents have abdicated their responsibility and support crap like this. One cannot have freedom without responsibility. For every responsibility we give up, we lose a freedom.

The FDA is a politically motivated government bureaucracy. They are not "god," nor should they be treated as the end all be all explanation for why things are.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Originally posted by: Czar
Kids smoking on school grounds is a school problem, kids smoking in general is a parent problem.

Wow, how often can Czar, the liberal of liberals on this board ;) , be quoted in agreement on this most conservative issue? :)

UA testing for tobacco use is an obscene abuse of power on the schools' part. Unfortunately, I predicted this when drug testing first started in schools some 10 years ago. Government always increases its power slowly and sequentially. It's like going blind... first, you barely notice it, then you need glasses (but it's okay), and then you can't see at all and you have a serious problem.
I don't approve of smoking (though I have battled the addiction personally, on and off), but I disapprove of the loss of rights and the invasion of government into our private lives and our bodies more. The only end result I see of all this is a future with a society that forces all its citizens to submit themselves to frequent and random drug testing. At the current rate, this could easily happen in our lifetimes. Don't believe me? Think about this: just 15 years ago, my high school had a smoking area where the kids were allowed to smoke, right on school grounds and under teacher supervision.
I rest my case.
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,801
581
126
Originally posted by: PSYWVic
UA testing for tobacco use is an obscene abuse of power on the schools' part. Unfortunately, I predicted this when drug testing first started in schools some 10 years ago. Government always increases its power slowly and sequentially. It's like going blind... first, you barely notice it, then you need glasses (but it's okay), and then you can't see at all and you have a serious problem.
[thread hijack]
Like gun control! See section 15.
[/thread hijack]