POLL: Teacher layoff by seniority or paycheck?

[soccerballtux]

Related to the other thread,

but I'm wondering what everyone's opinion is-- should we layoff the younger teachers who get paid less (and we'd have to lay off more of them to cover the budget crisis), or layoff those making the most money first (e.g. by seniority), so that students can get be benefit of lower student::teacher ratios?

 

[PokerGuy]

Neither one of those makes any sense. If we're going to make education better (or try to keep it as good as possible considering budget cuts), we need to get rid of teachers based on performance. What they make today and how long they've been there makes no difference on whether they are good teachers or not.

Heck, a random "layoff drawing" where names are drawn out of a hat is preferable to using seniority.

 

[rudder]

Neither one of those makes any sense. If we're going to make education better (or try to keep it as good as possible considering budget cuts), we need to get rid of teachers based on performance. What they make today and how long they've been there makes no difference on whether they are good teachers or not.

Heck, a random "layoff drawing" where names are drawn out of a hat is preferable to using seniority.

I wonder if principals in these districts with strong teachers unions even bothered with the effort to observe and critique teachers like they are supposed to. Here in Tennessee there is a teachers unions, but it is not very powerful. There is tenure and teachers can be fired for performance... but it takes work and documentation.

Likely any layoffs would be done by seniority to avoid any long drawn out legal issues.

EDIT: and i say offer a buyout to the 30 year+ teacher who has used the same lesson plan for 30+ years.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Lay off the teachers that are not as good as the other teachers, fuck the seniority issue.

 

[wayliff]

:hmm:

how about merit\performance?

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Meh. "Performance" based layoffs will end up screwing the educational system even further. They'll end up using some standardized test to determine 'performance', so we'll end up firing teachers who teach to the subject instead of the test. End up with highly rated 'teachers' who output drones who score high on standardized tests but cannot think.

 

[brandonb]

When growing up I remember all my best teachers were the older ones. I voted for them in the poll.

 

[wayliff]

Meh. "Performance" based layoffs will end up screwing the educational system even further. They'll end up using some standardized test to determine 'performance', so we'll end up firing teachers who teach to the subject instead of the test. End up with highly rated 'teachers' who output drones who score high on standardized tests but cannot think.

I don't get a performance review where I work based on a test...I have to do yearly reviews to make sure I performed otherwise I go to probation and if still does not improve then I probably get a pink slip. That kind of review would be time consuming but that is what I meant. I think teachers would have enough time to do this during summer.

I would not support a performance review based on a test.

 

[child of wonder]

I don't get a performance review where I work based on a test...I have to do yearly reviews to make sure I performed otherwise I go to probation and if still does not improve then I probably get a pink slip. That kind of review would be time consuming but that is what I meant. I think teachers would have enough time to do this during summer.

I would not support a performance review based on a test.

The performance should be based on how many of their students are passing the class. To prevent fraud, obviously someone would have to independently and randomly verify the teacher's work.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Teachers that are shown to be truely inept should be fired first; otherwise, it should go by senority. Although the real truth is without something stopping schools the highest paid will get fired whether they're good or not because that's how you save money.

 

[Patranus]

:hmm:

how about merit\performance?

But then why would the union have a need to exist if not to protect the union bosses?

 

[rudder]

:hmm:

how about merit\performance?

The performance should be based on how many of their students are passing the class. To prevent fraud, obviously someone would have to independently and randomly verify the teacher's work.

My wife is a teacher. One child has a severe learning disability.. he his already two years older than his classmates due to being held back. She also has a set of twins who are struggling. She did an intervention, they were recommended to special ed, but the parent did not want them to be in there. She moved up one grade level this year and is finding out a lot of the other teachers were really slackers... she has had to catch those other kids up to where her students from the previous year were at. Kids refuse to do homework and complete assignments. Parents are notified but do not give a damn.

She was also told by the principal to not yell and the kids and keep them happy.

I suppose she could just give them all good grades, let them use calculators to do math problems and not have any failing children in her class. The teacher next year would have to deal with those kids.

It is not an easy solution.

 

[Linflas]

I go with C layoff the ones with the lowest performance ratings regardless of seniority.

 

[wayliff]

My wife is a teacher. One child has a severe learning disability.. he his already two years older than his classmates due to being held back. She also has a set of twins who are struggling. She did an intervention, they were recommended to special ed, but the parent did not want them to be in there. She moved up one grade level this year and is finding out a lot of the other teachers were really slackers... she has had to catch those other kids up to where her students from the previous year were at. Kids refuse to do homework and complete assignments. Parents are notified but do not give a damn.

She was also told by the principal to not yell and the kids and keep them happy.

I suppose she could just give them all good grades, let them use calculators to do math problems and not have any failing children in her class. The teacher next year would have to deal with those kids.

It is not an easy solution.

agreed - it is not so simple.

 

[glenn1]

Meh. "Performance" based layoffs will end up screwing the educational system even further. They'll end up using some standardized test to determine 'performance', so we'll end up firing teachers who teach to the subject instead of the test. End up with highly rated 'teachers' who output drones who score high on standardized tests but cannot think.

On one hand teachers say that tests aren't a fair way of measuring performance, and then turn around and say that letting principals rate them can lead to decisions being made on personality issues. And it's not like you've proposed some other method; it appears teachers simply want to be completely unaccountable for their results (or lack thereof). The only thing many seem to be good at is making excuses - oh, it's the parents' fault, or one has a learning disability, or whatever, it's never the teacher's fault.

 

[LumbergTech]

On one hand teachers say that tests aren't a fair way of measuring performance, and then turn around and say that letting principals rate them can lead to decisions being made on personality issues. And it's not like you've proposed some other method; it appears teachers simply want to be completely unaccountable for their results (or lack thereof). The only thing many seem to be good at is making excuses - oh, it's the parents' fault, or one has a learning disability, or whatever, it's never the teacher's fault.

propose a mechanism that actually finds the bad teachers

if you want to hold them accountable then find a legitimate way to do it

 

[glenn1]

propose a mechanism that actually finds the bad teachers

if you want to hold them accountable then find a legitimate way to do it

Testing is legitimate, if it wasn't then teachers wouldn't use them to grade their students. Saying they aren't a perfect measuring tool does not mean they can't or shouldn't be used. Teachers are not above being held to a standard, and it's hard to take them seriously when they look for any reason to excuse themselves from one. If you don't want to be held accountable to your results then don't expect to be paid for them.

 

[charrison]

My wife is a teacher. One child has a severe learning disability.. he his already two years older than his classmates due to being held back. She also has a set of twins who are struggling. She did an intervention, they were recommended to special ed, but the parent did not want them to be in there. She moved up one grade level this year and is finding out a lot of the other teachers were really slackers... she has had to catch those other kids up to where her students from the previous year were at. Kids refuse to do homework and complete assignments. Parents are notified but do not give a damn.

She was also told by the principal to not yell and the kids and keep them happy.

I suppose she could just give them all good grades, let them use calculators to do math problems and not have any failing children in her class. The teacher next year would have to deal with those kids.

It is not an easy solution.

The solution is simple.

If there are so many kids/parents that are not interested in education, it is time to cut our losses. Store them in the gym and send them home with Fs and let the rest of the kids get the education they want.

You can give anyone education, it has to be taken.

If teachers are not doing their jobs, they need to be reported for waste fraud and abuse of tax payers dollars. The people that are not doing their jobs need to be fired.

 

[LumbergTech]

Testing is legitimate, if it wasn't then teachers wouldn't use them to grade their students. Saying they aren't a perfect measuring tool does not mean they can't or shouldn't be used. Teachers are not above being held to a standard, and it's hard to take them seriously when they look for any reason to excuse themselves from one. If you don't want to be held accountable to your results then don't expect to be paid for them.

lol...i assume you've been to college....i can certainly attest that people slip through all the time that have no idea what they are doing

 

[Zebo]

Should lay them all off and privatize education with vouchers like Europe does. With digital age teachers and school houses are relic anyway along with horses and buggies. I've posted before online education beats schools, amateur parents beat public schools, and private beats public basically the entire education system is a relic from the past with powerful interests maintaining status quo

 

[charrison]

Should lay them all off and privatize education with vouchers like Europe does. With digital age teachers and school houses are relic anyway along with horses and buggies. I've posted before online education beats schools, amateur parents beat public schools, and private beats public basically the entire education system is a relic from the past with powerful interests maintaining status quo

/thread

 

[charrison]

Testing is legitimate, if it wasn't then teachers wouldn't use them to grade their students. Saying they aren't a perfect measuring tool does not mean they can't or shouldn't be used. Teachers are not above being held to a standard, and it's hard to take them seriously when they look for any reason to excuse themselves from one. If you don't want to be held accountable to your results then don't expect to be paid for them.

It is easy to find a teacher when there is success tory to be celebrated, but when there is all you will find is figure pointing.

 

[mcmilljb]

Should lay them all off and privatize education with vouchers like Europe does. With digital age teachers and school houses are relic anyway along with horses and buggies. I've posted before online education beats schools, amateur parents beat public schools, and private beats public basically the entire education system is a relic from the past with powerful interests maintaining status quo

I disagree with you, but not completely. The current model is broken, but it's because the model doesn't scale well cost wise. Plus we have outside influences (like political, parental, etc) that are working against what's actually best for students. The I think the first thing that needs to be done is a determination of what we want out of the K12 education system. Obviously right now it's set up to generate a high school diploma. In our economy, a high school diploma is worthless by itself, but it's required for college. It's like CompTIA's A+ certification; worthless by itself, but required for some low level jobs. I think we need to rework it to better prepare kids for college, but different ways of acheiving that goal are debatable. Also not everyone wants to obtain a traditional college education after high school, so we should offer alternatives that better prepare them to do an occupation. Once you have goals set, you can set a plan to achieve them while determine ways to diminish obstacles.

The best way to deal with the punks who want to disrupt classrooms is to have alternative schools. If your child doesn't want to behave, he either goes to the alternative school or you have to make other arrangements. I would love to have regional military-style schools that teach these kids some discipline. Get up at dawn, do some running, and then wear shirt and tie to class. Don't want to have to do that? Then get your shit together. Getting these kids away from their parents might help them grow up to be something.

The most effective teachers I have seen do some very specific things. They expect their students to read material before coming to class because they do not read verbatim from the textbook. This is effective because the lecture should focus on the difficult material and tying together the material. They also have videos or point to places where you can get extra materials. I had one teacher who had an extended version of his lectures which were awesome for hitting the material an extra time or watching before the lecture. Really awesome for labs because you get a chance to visualize the lab before doing it. Another thing I have seen that work are interactive notes. The teacher gave the notes ahead of time for you to print out. Then you filled in specific parts. It's good for following along in lectures plus forcing you to pay attention otherwise you're digging for it out of the book. When students did not take advantage of these things, their grades were considerably lower.

I do agree we need to take advantage of technology to help teach students. You can easily post lectures and exercises online like the khan academy does. This does not replace the teacher, but it's an extension of the teacher that allows the student to do more outside the classroom. However you have to work with people who may not have the money to pay for technology at home. We should take advantage of software available to augment instruction. When I was an undergrad studying computer engineering, I had chance to do a research project on education. I showed how you could use MatLab to help teach some math courses. If I had known about GNU Octave at the time, I would have adopted that as a free alternative.