Poll: Should I buy a New Power SupplY?

[human2k]

Anything above 144x12.5 on my tbred B 1700 seems not to be stable. I can run 3dmarks/prime 95 fine for several hours, but during normal use it would just restart for no apparent reason. For me to have have maximum stability I need to have voltage up at 1.7 which I find kinda odd. Here are my Allied 300W PSU readings:

+3.3v = 3.33v
+5v = 5
+12v =12.28
-12v =-12.03
-5v =-5.20
standby= 4.97

My 3.3v+5v combined are 160W, I'm prolly gonna get an Allied 450W which combined is 230W for $41 on newegg. Rig: see sig

 

[mikecel79]

Originally posted by: paralazarguer
If you require the voltage to be that high to gain stability than you're hitting the roof with your processor, not your power supply.

He's right...

 

[human2k]

hmmm, I guess so, but it could be my board, other guys on the forums with almost the same stepping seem to be doing in the 2GHZ barrier with this chip.

 

[Bovinicus]

Overclocking results are not totally consistent, even with the same core revision. Just because one person reaches a certain level does not mean everyone else will. A new PSU is not a bad idea, as you are probably hitting the limit of your PSU. 450W is totally unecessary, however. 360 or 380W should do nicely.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: paralazarguer
If you require the voltage to be that high to gain stability than you're hitting the roof with your processor, not your power supply.

Not necessarily. Instability can be caused by heat as well as spikes from an insufficient PSU. For instance, he might need stability at 1.7V to compensate for a PSU that is actually fluctuating or undervolting on the 3.3V rail. Inconsistent power is one of the biggest causes for a seemingly stable OC to start acting funny. My advice would be to run a monitoring program while running a non-graphical stress tester to load your CPU and see what your voltages are doing. Something like Prime95 or CPUburn or memtest86. You'll see if your PSU is sufficient pretty quickly by seeing how your 3.3V rail reacts.

Chiz

 

[human2k]

Originally posted by: Bovinicus
Overclocking results are not totally consistent, even with the same core revision. Just because one person reaches a certain level does not mean everyone else will. A new PSU is not a bad idea, as you are probably hitting the limit of your PSU. 450W is totally unecessary, however. 360 or 380W should do nicely.

Newegg doesnt carry 360/380w psus, only 350/400/450/550. The 350w cost as much as the 450W.

 

[mechBgon]

An Antec 300W (SL300) has nearly as much 3.3V + 5V as the Allied 450W, and a TruePower 330 has more, thanks to independent 3.3V and 5V regulators. Could be worth a look as alternatives, the 3-year warranty is one hidden plus.

 

[LED]

the 3-year warranty is one hidden plus.

Damn I'll be on 1 Antec for the next round

 

[Lord Evermore]

Just for reference, all those readings are well within the specs for most power supply variances. If your supply is like the one that Newegg has (ATX300P4) then the +12V line is at 15A. Even with the processor overvolted to 1.7V, I wouldn't expect your system to be pulling any more than that; I'd be surprised if it's pulling over 12A. There also appears to be plenty of current available on the other rails, as your system really isn't very heavily loaded; even a system with more devices than you have only may need 120W on the 3.3 and 5V lines.

I'm not sure what voltage rail the Radeon actually uses for the extra power, but I presume only the +5V line since most PSU's have more power on that. Even if it does use some 12V power, it still shouldn't be enough to make the system unstable.

 

[chizow]

Yah, but if those readings are taken idling, then its really not indicative of whether he needs a new PSU or not. If your system crashes, its usually not when you're posting on AT

Which is why he needs to check them under load. Most PSUs will show nominal voltages while idling, but the problem symptoms reveal themselves as soon as you load the CPU.

Also, he's running an Athlon system, so the 12V rail isn't powering the mainboard and any components drawing from the board. The 9500/9700 may be a problem though, as others running PSUs with insufficient power to the 12V rail had problems with the 9700pro. Not a big surprise if your 3.3V and 5V rails are strained, leaving little for the 12V rail, which is needed to power the 9700pro. You can check out the thread in the Video Forum about 9XXX cards with an external power connector..

Chiz

 

[mechBgon]

*edited, I have plenty to do without engaging in a philosophical debate about PSU wattage and lifespan. Carry on, then *

 

[Lord Evermore]

According to AMD, the 12V rail does provide some power to the board, but not much. However I did take that into account and actually included an overestimation of the board's usage of the 12V rail and that's still well below 15A total. The board itself would only use a few amps at most on the 3.3V and 5V lines; even cheap PSU's have at least 20A on those, and the Allied PSU that Newegg has is 28A and 30A respectively. Plenty for the board itself, several onboard devices, and more drives than he has. Unless the Radeon is taking more than 1 or 2A, that PSU should be fine with 15A total.

The 12V rail is also a separate regulator from the other lines. Aside from the fact that he's not straining the 160W of the combined rails, the available wattage on the 12V rail isn't going to be THAT much strained by heavy loads on those rails. Even with reduced wattage to the 12V rail, he's most likely got more than enough. A system with two optical drives and a couple of Barracuda IV's (the most power pulling drive I can find) and several other devices still isn't going to get much over 120W peak draw on 3.3V and 5V, and he hasn't got nearly that much stuff in his system.

The fact that he IS able to get stability at 1.7V would indicate that the PSU is fully capable of running that system even with greater draw on the 12V line. The fact that reducing the voltage, which should make the PSU more able to supply power to the 12V devices, makes his system less stable, would be an indicator that the CPU itself can't function at that speed without the increased voltage.

 

[tbates757]

Originally posted by: human2k

Originally posted by: Bovinicus
Overclocking results are not totally consistent, even with the same core revision. Just because one person reaches a certain level does not mean everyone else will. A new PSU is not a bad idea, as you are probably hitting the limit of your PSU. 450W is totally unecessary, however. 360 or 380W should do nicely.

Newegg doesnt carry 360/380w psus, only 350/400/450/550. The 350w cost as much as the 450W.

Yes there is Antec True380, thats 380W

 

[tbates757]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
I'm afraid I can't agree about 220W PSUs being a great idea. Why does nVidia recommend a 350W+ unit for a system with a GeForce FX in it? Why does ATI recommend a 300W+ unit for a system with a R9700 Pro in it?

It's so the product is more newb proof, hence they get less returns from a *faulty card* when in reality its just a cheap PSU. Have you seen those Shuttle SFF PC's? They run 3GHZ Processors and 9700 Pro off like a 200W or 220W PSU, the key is that it's not a junky psu.

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: tbates757

Originally posted by: mechBgon
I'm afraid I can't agree about 220W PSUs being a great idea. Why does nVidia recommend a 350W+ unit for a system with a GeForce FX in it? Why does ATI recommend a 300W+ unit for a system with a R9700 Pro in it?

It's so the product is more newb proof, hence they get less returns from a *faulty card* when in reality its just a cheap PSU. Have you seen those Shuttle SFF PC's? They run 3GHZ Processors and 9700 Pro off like a 200W or 220W PSU, the key is that it's not a junky psu.

Yep. Compaq builds AthlonXP systems (D315) with 220W units too. It will be interesting to see how they hold up as the years go by.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mechBgon

Originally posted by: tbates757

Originally posted by: mechBgon
I'm afraid I can't agree about 220W PSUs being a great idea. Why does nVidia recommend a 350W+ unit for a system with a GeForce FX in it? Why does ATI recommend a 300W+ unit for a system with a R9700 Pro in it?

It's so the product is more newb proof, hence they get less returns from a *faulty card* when in reality its just a cheap PSU. Have you seen those Shuttle SFF PC's? They run 3GHZ Processors and 9700 Pro off like a 200W or 220W PSU, the key is that it's not a junky psu.

Yep. Compaq builds AthlonXP systems (D315) with 220W units too. It will be interesting to see how they hold up as the years go by.

Heh, yah, you add a HDD or a new video card and suddenly your system doesn't boot

Never skimp on a PSU. If you're gonne shell out now spend a few extra bucks and give yourself some headroom. If not you'll be in this same position in a year or two, wondering why your system isn't stable after you upgraded. Then you'll buy another "just enough" PSU and end up with 2 dinky ones when you could've saved the time and effort if you just bought quality in the first place. For all those running low powered PSUs, thats great, but when in doubt, leave no doubt and get something that'll flex its muscle for a few years to come.

Chiz

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by: tbates757

Originally posted by: mechBgon
I'm afraid I can't agree about 220W PSUs being a great idea. Why does nVidia recommend a 350W+ unit for a system with a GeForce FX in it? Why does ATI recommend a 300W+ unit for a system with a R9700 Pro in it?

It's so the product is more newb proof, hence they get less returns from a *faulty card* when in reality its just a cheap PSU. Have you seen those Shuttle SFF PC's? They run 3GHZ Processors and 9700 Pro off like a 200W or 220W PSU, the key is that it's not a junky psu.

Yup, pretty much. So long as it's a quality PSU, huge wattage ratings aren't necessary. By recommending a 300W+ you're eliminating a lot of the crappy PS's which will reduce potential user problems. No one is going to recommend a 220W PS, but OEM's are proof that they are plenty to run even top of the line components. A 300W is more than enough to run the above system and should not be the cause for the OC'ing problems. You're running a 350MHz OC, how much more do you need? Is it really worth spending $50 on a new PS for a potential few additional MHz's? If you want a higher quality PS, go for an Antec 330W Trupower, which will provide more power than you will be able to use any time soon, but don't just throw money away on an equally poor quality PS that has a higher wattage rating.

 

[Lord Evermore]

Here is the Builder's Guide from AMD that contains a nice little example chart (power things start on page 13) that I've been using.

A lightly loaded system, which human2k's really is aside from the overclocking and the Radeon, only uses 182W PEAK. Assuming he's got a Barracuda, that adds 0.8A to the +12V line, and the different CPU may get up to 8A draw (the T-Breds seem to dissipate a lot more power than Palomino's of the same speed, despite lower voltages). That's still only 12 to 13A total.

AMD's example of a power system is still under 300W peak load, and human2k's system doesn't have anywhere near everything that example has.

I'd really like to know exactly how much power the Radeon 9500 draws, and whether cracking it into a 9700 Pro makes it also draw as much current.

As I mentioned though, the PSU is perfectly able to make his system stable with the higher voltage. The fact that a reduced voltage is unstable doesn't logically indicate the power supply isn't able to run the CPU properly.

 

[LED]

I think we all agree that the PSU that is used in the Puter is not of high quality and I would not buy one...if it came with the Case fine and although I think 300wts is enough now look @ the future....The MSI can be upgraded , IMO some more RAM is wanted and 1.7v's is only .5v's over the default on an OC so nothing strange there. There are also available PCI SLOTS for upgrading not to mention USB devices which can be added. Doc @ Lost Circuits did a few reviews on the MSI Mobo's and mentioned the CPU Power Circuitry flucuates so that maybe the problem as well...Either way new MoBo or not I would think about get 1 new Quality PSU

 

[Lord Evermore]

What's the point of telling him to buy a new PSU just because he MIGHT want to upgrade things later? Having open PCI slots doesn't demand that you buy things to fill them. Another memory module isn't going to suck the power out of his computer. Most USB devices don't even USE bus power, they use external adapters, and a USB port can only put out half a watt TOTAL anyway (and on the +5V rail). Buying a new PSU is more than likely not going to resolve his issues with not being able to get a 25% overclock without a big voltage increase.

Add to this the issue of possibility of that particular motherboard not having very good voltage regulation, and you still want to blame the PSU?

Once again, he CAN run the system stable with 1.7V. That means the PSU is supplying perfectly good power to the system! If it was unstable no matter what the voltage, then MAYBE you could blame the PSU, but how can you blame the PSU for instabilities at LOWER current draw?

To put it another way, say the CPU draws 7.5A at 1.65V (the rating for a 1.8GHz T-bred), but draws 8A at 1.7V. Those are completely overblown numbers, but it's just an illustration. Now, the system runs fine at 1.7V. But it is unstable at 1.65V. Obviously the PSU works fine when it's taking that 8A draw, why would you say the PSU isn't working well enough when the system is unstable with LESS current draw?

I would be more apt to blame either the CPU for simply not being one of the best of the batch (god forbid EVERY SINGLE T-BRED NOT OVERCLOCK BY 50%), or the motherboard for not regulating the power well enough so that you have to bump up the "peak" voltage to keep it from dropping to an unstable level.

 

[mechBgon]

That's quite true, as long as the PSU is able to maintain good regulation. As Yoda says, power is nothing without control (at least, I think he said something like that). MBM5 could be set up to monitor the variations over the course of time. Also, sags in utility power could be throwing a wrench into the works... for instance, our lights dim noticably when our dishwasher starts up here.

To go back to the original problem, I recently got a new heatsink and did some experiments to see how quiet an 80mm fan I could get away with. Interestingly, although the system was stable even under heavy CPU/memory load, if I clicked my Intellimouse's scroll-wheel to anchor in a web page, and then slid the mouse towards me to scroll rapidly down a web page, the system would do what human2k is describing. I have the 1600+ running at 25% overclock and a tad over voltage. Boosting the fan speed to provide extra cooling fixed this glitch. I have no delusions of this being great for the longevity of the CPU, of course

human2k, the Thoroughbred core has less surface area for its wattage than the Palomino, and although I haven't bothered to confirm it, I believe AMD recommends a heatsink with a copper heatspreader for Tbreds, to make the interface between core and heatsink as efficient as practical. What's your cooling setup like?

 

[Lord Evermore]

Perhaps the circuits in your CPU which are used to process the scrolling are less than perfect, and that's why it requires higher voltage to make it stable when scrolling with higher frequency, or why it produces a bit more heat suddenly during that operation?

The fact that it runs fine in Prime95 and 3DMark but crashes during normal idle usage again points to the PSU working fine with heavy draw.

 

[LED]

What's the point of telling him to buy a new PSU just because he MIGHT want to upgrade things later?

Reread my statement...

Either way new MoBo or not I would think about get 1 new Quality PSU

also stated and voted that 300wts was enough...I'm presuming with that OC he may need to pump the v's up a tad more and that or it could be the MoBo causing the reboots

 

[majewski9]

HAHA you are well in spec with your power requirements. Im betting that your power supply has nothing to do with your restarts!

I think it is your chip or mobo not your PSU! Some chips just dont want to OC all that well.

 

[human2k]

I have a VANTEC CCK-6040 heatsink, which is pure copper and is equipped with a noisy 30CFM 60MM fan. Thanx for all your comments, all I can say is wow, we have some extremely intelligent people among us. Later today Ill probably order an Antec Trupower 330 and some PC2700 ram (I have money to blow). If this doesn't help Ill have to get an Epox 8RDA+ at tcwo.com and try to push my 3dmarks past 13K.

btw is 256MB samsung pc2700 any good? I plan on getting 2 sticks (so i can go Dual ddr later). Also is there a better PSU for under $60 at newegg other than the Truepower 330W??