Poll on the role of government power and freedom

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Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
I've narrowed it down to one question: do you believe that government plays a useful role in protecting the public's rights against concentrated power, or that it's the enemy of freedom?


Both. The best solution is a balance. Smallest gov't possible that can maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

Interestingly, you didn't say as large a government as is necessary to maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

I see the issue this way:

Humanity has a disease called self hate which it doesn't recognize. This fact requires force to keep the worst self haters from damaging those who manage it better. Self hate is the same as feeling worthless, which is the same as the feeling one can't do for oneself, which is the same as an endless search for Santa Clause. We are vacuum cleaners sucking off vacuum cleaners.

The result, of course, is that we corrupt every thing we touch. If corrupt the social structure which requires government, and then we corrupt government.

A wise society, therefore, and there are none because nobody will look at the real problem, is that we need to structure society in the best way we can to not create more and more self hate. For that we will have to act in accordance with our ancient religions which recognized that the problem is the evil within, if not that it originates in childhood from being put down.

What we need before more or less government, is knowledge and understanding as to who and where the real enemy is.

No matter what Timothy Leary said, put down the LSD.

So many of you waste your time with this kind of meaningless post even though in line two of my sig, there for years and years, I address this. You have no meaningful answer to my post because my post is the truth, a truth you are afraid to see. But imagine for a moment the mess you would be in in LSD were the only way to open the doors of your perception. You would be just as lost, with your prejudice that LSD equals fiction as you are lost about what you feel. By the way, I have never seen the slightest indication that T. Leary understood anything at all of what I said.

You're kidding yourself. There's no coherence in your post. I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them. "You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

Let me repost some of your garble so that it's more clear what kind of nonsense it really was :

Endless search for Santa Claus
Vacuum cleaners sucking on vacuum cleaners
We all hate ourselves
We corrupt everything we touch
A wise society which doesn't exist knows that we shouldn't foster hate/self-hate
We need to act in accordance to ancient religions that knows that we are evil
Maybe it's from childhood
Don't touch the government because we need to handle the hate thing first
Blah blah blah I'm better than you because I'm (off/on) my meds.

That about it? All-righty-then.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,284
6,026
126
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
I've narrowed it down to one question: do you believe that government plays a useful role in protecting the public's rights against concentrated power, or that it's the enemy of freedom?


Both. The best solution is a balance. Smallest gov't possible that can maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

Interestingly, you didn't say as large a government as is necessary to maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

I see the issue this way:

Humanity has a disease called self hate which it doesn't recognize. This fact requires force to keep the worst self haters from damaging those who manage it better. Self hate is the same as feeling worthless, which is the same as the feeling one can't do for oneself, which is the same as an endless search for Santa Clause. We are vacuum cleaners sucking off vacuum cleaners.

The result, of course, is that we corrupt every thing we touch. If corrupt the social structure which requires government, and then we corrupt government.

A wise society, therefore, and there are none because nobody will look at the real problem, is that we need to structure society in the best way we can to not create more and more self hate. For that we will have to act in accordance with our ancient religions which recognized that the problem is the evil within, if not that it originates in childhood from being put down.

What we need before more or less government, is knowledge and understanding as to who and where the real enemy is.

No matter what Timothy Leary said, put down the LSD.

So many of you waste your time with this kind of meaningless post even though in line two of my sig, there for years and years, I address this. You have no meaningful answer to my post because my post is the truth, a truth you are afraid to see. But imagine for a moment the mess you would be in in LSD were the only way to open the doors of your perception. You would be just as lost, with your prejudice that LSD equals fiction as you are lost about what you feel. By the way, I have never seen the slightest indication that T. Leary understood anything at all of what I said.

You're kidding yourself. There's no coherence in your post. I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them. "You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

Let me repost some of your garble so that it's more clear what kind of nonsense it really was :

Endless search for Santa Claus
Vacuum cleaners sucking on vacuum cleaners
We all hate ourselves
We corrupt everything we touch
A wise society which doesn't exist knows that we shouldn't foster hate/self-hate
We need to act in accordance to ancient religions that knows that we are evil
Maybe it's from childhood
Don't touch the government because we need to handle the hate thing first
Blah blah blah I'm better than you because I'm (off/on) my meds.

That about it? All-righty-then.

Now let me see if I've got this:

You're kidding yourself.
There's no coherence in your post.
I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them.
"You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

That's about it? All-righty-then.

Trust me. As I said, you have nothing to say other than perhaps you are shallow, don't know how to think, and obviously don't know how to read.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
I've narrowed it down to one question: do you believe that government plays a useful role in protecting the public's rights against concentrated power, or that it's the enemy of freedom?


Both. The best solution is a balance. Smallest gov't possible that can maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

Interestingly, you didn't say as large a government as is necessary to maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

I see the issue this way:

Humanity has a disease called self hate which it doesn't recognize. This fact requires force to keep the worst self haters from damaging those who manage it better. Self hate is the same as feeling worthless, which is the same as the feeling one can't do for oneself, which is the same as an endless search for Santa Clause. We are vacuum cleaners sucking off vacuum cleaners.

The result, of course, is that we corrupt every thing we touch. If corrupt the social structure which requires government, and then we corrupt government.

A wise society, therefore, and there are none because nobody will look at the real problem, is that we need to structure society in the best way we can to not create more and more self hate. For that we will have to act in accordance with our ancient religions which recognized that the problem is the evil within, if not that it originates in childhood from being put down.

What we need before more or less government, is knowledge and understanding as to who and where the real enemy is.

No matter what Timothy Leary said, put down the LSD.

So many of you waste your time with this kind of meaningless post even though in line two of my sig, there for years and years, I address this. You have no meaningful answer to my post because my post is the truth, a truth you are afraid to see. But imagine for a moment the mess you would be in in LSD were the only way to open the doors of your perception. You would be just as lost, with your prejudice that LSD equals fiction as you are lost about what you feel. By the way, I have never seen the slightest indication that T. Leary understood anything at all of what I said.

You're kidding yourself. There's no coherence in your post. I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them. "You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

Let me repost some of your garble so that it's more clear what kind of nonsense it really was :

Endless search for Santa Claus
Vacuum cleaners sucking on vacuum cleaners
We all hate ourselves
We corrupt everything we touch
A wise society which doesn't exist knows that we shouldn't foster hate/self-hate
We need to act in accordance to ancient religions that knows that we are evil
Maybe it's from childhood
Don't touch the government because we need to handle the hate thing first
Blah blah blah I'm better than you because I'm (off/on) my meds.

That about it? All-righty-then.

Now let me see if I've got this:

You're kidding yourself.
There's no coherence in your post.
I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them.
"You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

That's about it? All-righty-then.

Trust me. As I said, you have nothing to say other than perhaps you are shallow, don't know how to think, and obviously don't know how to read.

Thanks for your insults, including the permanent one you keep in your sig.

I am not shallow. I may not think in the way that you do, or the way you seem to want me to, but that's irrelevant. I read about 3-4 books a week, primarily history and science nonfiction.

I admire the way you try to post what might be big thoughts, but you have to realize that such generalizations and abstractions cannot help you make a cogent point here. And resorting to insults surely gets you nowhere.

Your sig, again, is laughable. It is a blanket assumption, and basically just an empty saying.

I really would like to see some credible input from you that didn't digress into such vagaries. People are far too individualistic to be compared to vacuum cleaners, and personal ethics/ambition/attitude/mental/emotional health are far too varied to make such a statement to the effect of 'everyone hates themselves'. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I sure don't hate myself. I'm not materialistic, I love my family, I care deeply for my country even when I disagree entirely with the political leadership that it has suffered under for so long.

Meh.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
0
Fundamental flaw: you assume we must be on one side or the other...both in political leaning and view of government. Neither is true. It's not a single axis scale, for either point.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
"A government that is big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."


- Reagan

If more Americans would take the personal view that they alone are responsible for their happiness rather than relying on the government, the world would be a better place.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,284
6,026
126
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
I've narrowed it down to one question: do you believe that government plays a useful role in protecting the public's rights against concentrated power, or that it's the enemy of freedom?


Both. The best solution is a balance. Smallest gov't possible that can maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

Interestingly, you didn't say as large a government as is necessary to maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

I see the issue this way:

Humanity has a disease called self hate which it doesn't recognize. This fact requires force to keep the worst self haters from damaging those who manage it better. Self hate is the same as feeling worthless, which is the same as the feeling one can't do for oneself, which is the same as an endless search for Santa Clause. We are vacuum cleaners sucking off vacuum cleaners.

The result, of course, is that we corrupt every thing we touch. If corrupt the social structure which requires government, and then we corrupt government.

A wise society, therefore, and there are none because nobody will look at the real problem, is that we need to structure society in the best way we can to not create more and more self hate. For that we will have to act in accordance with our ancient religions which recognized that the problem is the evil within, if not that it originates in childhood from being put down.

What we need before more or less government, is knowledge and understanding as to who and where the real enemy is.

No matter what Timothy Leary said, put down the LSD.

So many of you waste your time with this kind of meaningless post even though in line two of my sig, there for years and years, I address this. You have no meaningful answer to my post because my post is the truth, a truth you are afraid to see. But imagine for a moment the mess you would be in in LSD were the only way to open the doors of your perception. You would be just as lost, with your prejudice that LSD equals fiction as you are lost about what you feel. By the way, I have never seen the slightest indication that T. Leary understood anything at all of what I said.

You're kidding yourself. There's no coherence in your post. I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them. "You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

Let me repost some of your garble so that it's more clear what kind of nonsense it really was :

Endless search for Santa Claus
Vacuum cleaners sucking on vacuum cleaners
We all hate ourselves
We corrupt everything we touch
A wise society which doesn't exist knows that we shouldn't foster hate/self-hate
We need to act in accordance to ancient religions that knows that we are evil
Maybe it's from childhood
Don't touch the government because we need to handle the hate thing first
Blah blah blah I'm better than you because I'm (off/on) my meds.

That about it? All-righty-then.

Now let me see if I've got this:

You're kidding yourself.
There's no coherence in your post.
I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them.
"You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

That's about it? All-righty-then.

Trust me. As I said, you have nothing to say other than perhaps you are shallow, don't know how to think, and obviously don't know how to read.

Thanks for your insults, including the permanent one you keep in your sig.

I am not shallow. I may not think in the way that you do, or the way you seem to want me to, but that's irrelevant. I read about 3-4 books a week, primarily history and science nonfiction.

I admire the way you try to post what might be big thoughts, but you have to realize that such generalizations and abstractions cannot help you make a cogent point here. And resorting to insults surely gets you nowhere.

Your sig, again, is laughable. It is a blanket assumption, and basically just an empty saying.

I really would like to see some credible input from you that didn't digress into such vagaries. People are far too individualistic to be compared to vacuum cleaners, and personal ethics/ambition/attitude/mental/emotional health are far too varied to make such a statement to the effect of 'everyone hates themselves'. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I sure don't hate myself. I'm not materialistic, I love my family, I care deeply for my country even when I disagree entirely with the political leadership that it has suffered under for so long.

Meh.

Well well well, finally you get around to posting like a real person who even has something to say.

Not everybody thinks I am far out and I said that "some" who do may think so because they have no real experience. That is a fact that becomes an insult only if you feel you are worthless because you have no experience. I have experiences that tell me that what I say is true, and I trust what I have learned from self exploration more than I trust you. I KNOW things via experience. Doesn't make me better than you or you worse, but I know what I know. I would pay no attention to a child who tells me there's no such thing as an orgasm, for example. I know there is. I know via personal experience the barriers that have to be overcome to feel what I feel. That experience I also know is not very common.

You cannot get experience from books. Your previous posts to me were immature and showed little intelligent thought. They lacked any argument or substance, a mere litany of complaints, as it were. The statement that you are not shallow, for example does nothing to prove it whereas reasoned and thought out works can.

What you call generalizations and abstractions are a perfectly legitimate way to illustrate points that are invisible to those who cannot see. They are short hand for longer and tiresome repetitions of intricate psychological phenomenon. You were not generous at all in attempting to see what I said or to see it in anything but a negative light. That is your problem, not mine.

My sig is neither laughable, a blanket assumption, nor empty just because you say it is. It is there from countless experiences with shallow remarks like your first ones. I have seen you coming for a long long time because you are legion.

I post according to my own lights, not yours. You are free to any opinion you like, but, as I said, I know what I know from hard experience. I can't be knocked down by a gnat or by posts that have no substance.

Again, you do not see what I see. There is nothing you can do about that. I see that people are vacuum cleaners sucking of vacuum cleaners, it doesn't matter that fact doesn't please you. People everywhere are exactly the same. Their individualities pale in comparison to what they have in common, and self hate is one of those things. I am telling you what is. I do not expect you to believe it. It is something nobody will face.

You make the logical mistake of thinking that if you hate yourself all good is destroyed. I have the best of news for you. You believe is what is a lie. There is nothing wrong with you at all and never has been. But that fact is the opposite of what you feel. The knowledge I have, if any, is for those who can carry it away. In my opinion humanity will either awaken or die. There is no hope for the blind but I post anyway. When you want the door to hear you speak to the wall.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,284
6,026
126
Originally posted by: XMan
"A government that is big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."


- Reagan

If more Americans would take the personal view that they alone are responsible for their happiness rather than relying on the government, the world would be a better place.

Good old Reagan understood that we are vacuums sucking on vacuums. He just didn't know why.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: XMan
"A government that is big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."


- Reagan

If more Americans would take the personal view that they alone are responsible for their happiness rather than relying on the government, the world would be a better place.

I alone am responsible for ensuring I have enough to eat, that doesn't mean I raise cows in my condo's parking lot. Reagan was the king of the bumper sticker philosophies, which explains his bizarre popularity, but like most bumper sticker ideas, that one misses a key point. Being responsible does not mean being totally self-sufficient, we all rely on others to do things for us...in fact one of the fundamental principles of modern economic theory says that's the way to go. There is nothing about government that somehow makes it totally outside that system, unable to perform any function at all without being somehow "socialist".

Suggesting the government should take responsibility for your happiness or success is as silly as suggesting Safeway is responsible for making sure you eat healthy, but then again, that's never really been the liberal position...and opposition to that idea has never really been the conservative position. Conservatives don't want personal responsibility, they want no government...which sounds like the same thing but isn't, as government and personal responsibility are not mutually exclusive concepts, any more than grocery stores and personal responsibility are mutually exclusive. Of course care has to be taken to make sure government DOESN'T start controlling our lives, but we are nowhere NEAR that point, certainly not the extent a man who should have stayed in acting might suggest.

And in any case, conservatives have no business calling themselves the champions of small government, certainly not while citing REAGAN as an example. Not only did Reagan HUGELY expand the power and budget of the federal government, but conservatives in general only seem to want small government to the extent it allows it to fit better into your bedroom. "Small government" doesn't ignore Enron but regulate marriage.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,302
136
Of course government serves a useful role in protecting the public's rights against concentrated power. The obvious flaw in your reasoning is that government is itself a concentrated power. You're just calling up one monster to kill another for you. Why is it that the "right" and the "left" only gives us the choices of Big Business or Big Government? What if you don't want big either?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
You don?t need a big government to protect the people from the ?bad guys.?

Add up the budget for all the government agencies that are designed to protect us and I bet the total will be very small compared to the overall budget.

What we really need is someone to protect us from our government. If you want to talk about the concentration of power look at the 536 people in Washington that control a nearly $3 trillion budget. 20% of our entire economy is controlled by Congress the Senate and the President. A big evil company like Wal-Mart controls less than 3% of our economy. I don?t like Wal-Mart so I try not to shop there, I don?t have the same option for a government that takes 20% of my paycheck before I even see it.

Why don't you start a thread about who is supposed to protect our rights from them?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,302
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You don?t need a big government to protect the people from the ?bad guys.?

Add up the budget for all the government agencies that are designed to protect us and I bet the total will be very small compared to the overall budget.

What we really need is someone to protect us from our government. If you want to talk about the concentration of power look at the 536 people in Washington that control a nearly $3 trillion budget. 20% of our entire economy is controlled by Congress the Senate and the President. A big evil company like Wal-Mart controls less than 3% of our economy. I don?t like Wal-Mart so I try not to shop there, I don?t have the same option for our government that takes 20% of my paycheck before I even see it.

Why do you start a thread about who is supposed to protect our rights from them?

pfft... protecting the people from the "bad guys" is just about all our government does. If it's not the OP's bogeyman rich, it's your bogeymen of terrorists and drug addicts. Add up all the monsters in the closet and you get the better part of the budget.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Arkaign
I've narrowed it down to one question: do you believe that government plays a useful role in protecting the public's rights against concentrated power, or that it's the enemy of freedom?


Both. The best solution is a balance. Smallest gov't possible that can maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

Interestingly, you didn't say as large a government as is necessary to maintain peace, prosperity, personal freedom, and crucial services.

I see the issue this way:

Humanity has a disease called self hate which it doesn't recognize. This fact requires force to keep the worst self haters from damaging those who manage it better. Self hate is the same as feeling worthless, which is the same as the feeling one can't do for oneself, which is the same as an endless search for Santa Clause. We are vacuum cleaners sucking off vacuum cleaners.

The result, of course, is that we corrupt every thing we touch. If corrupt the social structure which requires government, and then we corrupt government.

A wise society, therefore, and there are none because nobody will look at the real problem, is that we need to structure society in the best way we can to not create more and more self hate. For that we will have to act in accordance with our ancient religions which recognized that the problem is the evil within, if not that it originates in childhood from being put down.

What we need before more or less government, is knowledge and understanding as to who and where the real enemy is.

No matter what Timothy Leary said, put down the LSD.

So many of you waste your time with this kind of meaningless post even though in line two of my sig, there for years and years, I address this. You have no meaningful answer to my post because my post is the truth, a truth you are afraid to see. But imagine for a moment the mess you would be in in LSD were the only way to open the doors of your perception. You would be just as lost, with your prejudice that LSD equals fiction as you are lost about what you feel. By the way, I have never seen the slightest indication that T. Leary understood anything at all of what I said.

You're kidding yourself. There's no coherence in your post. I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them. "You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

Let me repost some of your garble so that it's more clear what kind of nonsense it really was :

Endless search for Santa Claus
Vacuum cleaners sucking on vacuum cleaners
We all hate ourselves
We corrupt everything we touch
A wise society which doesn't exist knows that we shouldn't foster hate/self-hate
We need to act in accordance to ancient religions that knows that we are evil
Maybe it's from childhood
Don't touch the government because we need to handle the hate thing first
Blah blah blah I'm better than you because I'm (off/on) my meds.

That about it? All-righty-then.

Now let me see if I've got this:

You're kidding yourself.
There's no coherence in your post.
I don't see truth there, and certainly nothing I'm 'afraid to see'. The second line in your sig is nothing more than an ignorant statement of assumption : you think you can judge others even though you know little to nothing about them.
"You have never been anywhere"? What kind of stupid statement is that?

That's about it? All-righty-then.

Trust me. As I said, you have nothing to say other than perhaps you are shallow, don't know how to think, and obviously don't know how to read.

Thanks for your insults, including the permanent one you keep in your sig.

I am not shallow. I may not think in the way that you do, or the way you seem to want me to, but that's irrelevant. I read about 3-4 books a week, primarily history and science nonfiction.

I admire the way you try to post what might be big thoughts, but you have to realize that such generalizations and abstractions cannot help you make a cogent point here. And resorting to insults surely gets you nowhere.

Your sig, again, is laughable. It is a blanket assumption, and basically just an empty saying.

I really would like to see some credible input from you that didn't digress into such vagaries. People are far too individualistic to be compared to vacuum cleaners, and personal ethics/ambition/attitude/mental/emotional health are far too varied to make such a statement to the effect of 'everyone hates themselves'. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I sure don't hate myself. I'm not materialistic, I love my family, I care deeply for my country even when I disagree entirely with the political leadership that it has suffered under for so long.

Meh.

Well well well, finally you get around to posting like a real person who even has something to say.

Not everybody thinks I am far out and I said that "some" who do may think so because they have no real experience. That is a fact that becomes an insult only if you feel you are worthless because you have no experience. I have experiences that tell me that what I say is true, and I trust what I have learned from self exploration more than I trust you. I KNOW things via experience. Doesn't make me better than you or you worse, but I know what I know. I would pay no attention to a child who tells me there's no such thing as an orgasm, for example. I know there is. I know via personal experience the barriers that have to be overcome to feel what I feel. That experience I also know is not very common.

You cannot get experience from books. Your previous posts to me were immature and showed little intelligent thought. They lacked any argument or substance, a mere litany of complaints, as it were. The statement that you are not shallow, for example does nothing to prove it whereas reasoned and thought out works can.

What you call generalizations and abstractions are a perfectly legitimate way to illustrate points that are invisible to those who cannot see. They are short hand for longer and tiresome repetitions of intricate psychological phenomenon. You were not generous at all in attempting to see what I said or to see it in anything but a negative light. That is your problem, not mine.

My sig is neither laughable, a blanket assumption, nor empty just because you say it is. It is there from countless experiences with shallow remarks like your first ones. I have seen you coming for a long long time because you are legion.

I post according to my own lights, not yours. You are free to any opinion you like, but, as I said, I know what I know from hard experience. I can't be knocked down by a gnat or by posts that have no substance.

Again, you do not see what I see. There is nothing you can do about that. I see that people are vacuum cleaners sucking of vacuum cleaners, it doesn't matter that fact doesn't please you. People everywhere are exactly the same. Their individualities pale in comparison to what they have in common, and self hate is one of those things. I am telling you what is. I do not expect you to believe it. It is something nobody will face.

You make the logical mistake of thinking that if you hate yourself all good is destroyed. I have the best of news for you. You believe is what is a lie. There is nothing wrong with you at all and never has been. But that fact is the opposite of what you feel. The knowledge I have, if any, is for those who can carry it away. In my opinion humanity will either awaken or die. There is no hope for the blind but I post anyway. When you want the door to hear you speak to the wall.

That's a huge rant about how much better you think you are than everyone else. It is full of blanket statements and assumptions, and utterly incorrect statements about me particularly. You state things as 'facts', when in reality they are just your judgments and assumptions. Further, you make many grammatical errors and nonsensical sentences such as 'You believe is what is a lie'. We all have different experiences, and you make the critical mistake that you think what YOU know from YOUR experiences is more valuable or true than what others have experienced. In short, vanity and arrogance make for a bunch of condescending nonsense to pour forth incessantly when you try to make points.

I maintain that your sig is silly, because it is a blanket statement that of course doesn't apply to everyone equally. We're all individuals, and it's ridiculous to think that you can put people into your little boxes so that you think you can understand everything. The fact is you CAN'T know what everyone posting here has been through, what they know, what they love, what they fear. If you ask these questions of a thousand different people, you'll get a thousand different answers. Yet you insist on huge generalizations and effrontery to satisfy your need for simplicity.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,284
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Arkaign: That's a huge rant about how much better you think you are than everyone else.

M: Actually I think you are ranting about how inferior you feel when I say what I say. I am a nobody and my needs to be better than you or anybody else suffered a major defeat long ago. I paid for my knowledge the price of everything I held dear.

A: It is full of blanket statements and assumptions, and utterly incorrect statements about me particularly.

M: You should not make blanket statements full of assumptions and incorrect statements about me, but should give specific examples of where and what I said that substantiates your claims.

A: You state things as 'facts', when in reality they are just your judgments and assumptions.

M: I state facts as facts of my experience, not facts out of the air as you do.

A: Further, you make many grammatical errors and nonsensical sentences such as 'You believe is what is a lie'.

M: Then help me out. Where is the grammatical mistake?

A:: We all have different experiences, and you make the critical mistake that you think what YOU know from YOUR experiences is more valuable or true than what others have experienced.

I certainly do claim that my experience is truer than yours. I see no experience in what you say at all. I find you to be rather naive. I make no claim my experience is greater than all others. Not at all. I am a nobody, after all.

A: In short, vanity and arrogance make for a bunch of condescending nonsense to pour forth incessantly when you try to make points.

M: It WOULD be vanity and arrogance coming from you but from me you get my experience given in all modesty. I am not caught in the vanity trap you are. My vanity was one of the costs I had to pay for knowing what I know. I can go where you cannot because I am free. I am indifferent to your charge that I am vane because my experience tells me that what you call vane I call seeing some things that ARE facts. I know what you do not and can't unknown it because you think that knowing makes me vane.

A: I maintain that your sig is silly, because it is a blanket statement that of course doesn't apply to everyone equally.

M: You are free to think anything that you like. Yours is every bit as much a blanket statement, like saying we are all so different some of us don't require air. My experience tells me everybody has to breathe and your saying otherwise won't change that or make me vane for saying so.

A: We're all individuals, and it's ridiculous to think that you can put people into your little boxes so that you think you can understand everything.

M: Mine is a very large box and all of us fit in. My box is the key to a very universal understanding, one of those things my experience has verified, sorry.

A: The fact is you CAN'T know what everyone posting here has been through, what they know, what they love, what they fear. If you ask these questions of a thousand different people, you'll get a thousand different answers. Yet you insist on huge generalizations and effrontery to satisfy your need for simplicity.

M: No you understand nothing of what makes what you say is impossible so you can't conceive that it is because you have little experience with real knowledge. You are a child who says there's no such thing as an orgasm, claiming that adults who know better and vane or given to generalizations or a need for some fantasy glorious experience that does not exist. You don't know what you are talking about. You are very vane because you believe what you believe and can't credit that I know much more. It is a fact, is it not, that one of us probably knows more than the other, has a more accurate assessment of our true human condition? Now you may say I am vane, but the person who posted before you by the name of Vic knows some things way way better than me. I always pay deep attention to his posts because he has much to teach me and I've already learned a lot from him.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
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You're right, Vic is a lot smarter than you. You still can't explain your condescending nonsense in any credible way. Talking about children and orgasms is disgusting and irrelevant. Vane is actually spelled Vain. You continue to make assumptions that have no bearing on reality. You think you know 'much more' than me. The reality is that we know different things, but I'm not 'vain' enough to pretend that I know more than anyone else. I'll eagerly await your next rant about how much more you know than anyone, except for Vic. One thing you also need to realize is how vast something as the 'human condition' is. Individual humans can hardly begin to understand the complexity and depth of the tens of billions of lives that have existed and do exist, let alone the nuances and details of so many different languages, politics, philosophies, histories, religions, proclivities, technologies, heritage and customs, it's just endless. The best we can do is approximations, and the broader you look, the less applicable the informed opinion of one person necessarily applies to a given individual. You speak of naivete, but you almost define it by your assumptions and arrogance. The best we can do is learn and think until we die, but you fall into the trap of assuming you know more than others, or even enough to speak of things as if they were truth, when they are merely abstractions or generalizations about a given subject.

I'd wager that Vic would agree with me, given the childish and deluded manner of your posts in this thread. There's a crucial difference between 'I see us as Vacuum cleaners sucking on other Vacuum cleaners' and 'We *ARE* Vacuum cleaners sucking on vacuum cleaners'. The first statement expresses a perception and belief, but is an open idea that can be expanded/retracted/articulated in any manner of better ways in the future. The second way of stating it, as you carelessly did, is as a closed concept, a statement believed entirely, without conception of the possibility that it may not be universally applicable, or even true in a general sense.

"The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing."

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,284
6,026
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A: You're right, Vic is a lot smarter than you.

M: Vic probably is a lot smarter than I am. But you show your ignorance when you equate smart with knowing. I said he knows some things better than I do.

A: You still can't explain your condescending nonsense in any credible way.

M: I can't speak with credibility to somebody who doesn't know what credibility is.

A: Talking about children and orgasms is disgusting and irrelevant.

M: My my, aren't we the prude. My father talked to me of such things.

A: Vane is actually spelled Vain.

M: You know how to spell. I know which way the wind blows.

A: You continue to make assumptions that have no bearing on reality.

M: You do not know about reality so you can't really say.

A: You think you know 'much more' than me.

M: I have no idea how much you know. I know you know noting worthwhile here on this topic.

A: The reality is that we know different things, but I'm not 'vain' enough to pretend that I know more than anyone else.

M: And I am free enough of the vanity problem to tell you like it is. You may think an orgasm is like playing checkers, but I know differently.

A: I'll eagerly await your next rant about how much more you know than anyone, except for Vic.

M: Hope you didn't have to wait long.

A: One thing you also need to realize is how vast something as the 'human condition' is. Individual humans can hardly begin to understand the complexity and depth of the tens of billions of lives that have existed and do exist, let alone the nuances and details of so many different languages, politics, philosophies, histories, religions, proclivities, technologies, heritage and customs, it's just endless.

M: No, you don't say. Geez, I never thought of that. I'll have to file this along with green cheese in the relevancy department.

A: The best we can do is approximations, and the broader you look, the less applicable the informed opinion of one person necessarily applies to a given individual.

M: Do you make this crap up or did you read it in one of your non science fiction books?

A: You speak of naiveté, but you almost define it by your assumptions and arrogance.

M: You wouldn't know naivety if it bit you in the ass, which, unfortunately, it has.

A: The best we can do is learn and think until we die, but you fall into the trap of assuming you know more than others, or even enough to speak of things as if they were truth, when they are merely abstractions or generalizations about a given subject.

M: There really are orgasms and you will discover that not by learning and thinking but by having sex.

A: I'd wager that Vic would agree with me, given the childish and deluded manner of your posts in this thread.

M: He is free to render an opinion.

A: There's a crucial difference between 'I see us as Vacuum cleaners sucking on other Vacuum cleaners' and 'We *ARE* Vacuum cleaners sucking on vacuum cleaners'. The first statement expresses a perception and belief, but is an open idea that can be expanded/retracted/articulated in any manner of better ways in the future. The second way of stating it, as you carelessly did, is as a closed concept, a statement believed entirely, without conception of the possibility that it may not be universally applicable, or even true in a general sense.

M: Forgive me and my poetic imagery. I didn't know I was speaking to such a literal, um um, stuffed shirt.

A: "The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing."

M: But it's only wisdom when you know it by experience. You, on the other hand, are stuffed full of yourself and have not had that realization.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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You're like a broken record. You continually assume so many things. Good luck with your arrogant nonsense.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,284
6,026
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You don?t need a big government to protect the people from the ?bad guys.?

Add up the budget for all the government agencies that are designed to protect us and I bet the total will be very small compared to the overall budget.

What we really need is someone to protect us from our government. If you want to talk about the concentration of power look at the 536 people in Washington that control a nearly $3 trillion budget. 20% of our entire economy is controlled by Congress the Senate and the President. A big evil company like Wal-Mart controls less than 3% of our economy. I don?t like Wal-Mart so I try not to shop there, I don?t have the same option for our government that takes 20% of my paycheck before I even see it.

Why do you start a thread about who is supposed to protect our rights from them?

pfft... protecting the people from the "bad guys" is just about all our government does. If it's not the OP's bogeyman rich, it's your bogeymen of terrorists and drug addicts. Add up all the monsters in the closet and you get the better part of the budget.

Yup, and all those monsters arise from the unconscious as a projection of self hate.