Poll: Is Healthcare a Right or a Privelage?

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Capn

Platinum Member
Jun 27, 2000
2,716
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I believe it's a priviledge. I think we should have basic immunizations for children etc, but I can't say that it's a right.

A man living by himself in the wilderness falls and brakes his arm. He can't visit a hospital or have a doctor care for him. If healthcare is truly a right, then this man is in a condition where his rights are being denied. Who is denying his right to healthcare then? Ultimately no one, therefore I have to conclude that his right isn't being denied because it doesn't exist.

Probably a horrible explanation, but I just got back from work. :)
 

ryudo

Member
Jan 6, 2001
110
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I do not think that healthcare is a Right. When you start calling something a "Right" then you have to give a good reason why. For example, we can probably all agree that a citizen of the US has the Right to criticize the government without repurcussion. Why? Because it is guaranteed by the first Amendment. We also have a Right of not being put on trial by the US government a second time, even if new evidence exists that did not exist during the first trial. This is guaranteed by the 5th amendment.

There are other things that we may want to call Rights but really have no basis. I would like to think that no person in this country should go hungry. But is there a Right to food? No. Similarly, I do not think that healthcare is a Right. It would be nice if everyone had healthcare, but there is no basis for it being a Right.

You can argue that even though healthcare is not a Right, the government should make it available to everyone. But that is a different issue.
 

1967mustangman

Senior member
May 31, 2001
500
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A Goverment such as ours should have as little to do with private sector life as is possible. Aside from the tasks of the government outlined in the consitution I don't think that that goverment should be stiking their noses into any thing else. Health care is a privildge just like driving!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,432
6,090
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Poetic justice would be that it is a right for those who think it is a right and a privilage for the rest.
 

damien6

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
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When you pay enough taxes for more than 30 years it's a "right" but if you barely paid any or always got around by paying the least possible by being overly/extremely creative in your tax returns, then it's a "privilege".
 

CJZ

Golden Member
Jan 24, 2001
1,018
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I believe that healthcare is a right. If the government helped to subsidize healthcare costs, we would not only benefit those who cannot pay but those who can. Preventive medicine, shown to effectively lower overall healthcare costs (cheaper to deal with a problem by preventing it or catching it early on than having to pay to fix a bigger problem later). Unfortunately, this type of care is often unavailable (there are some prenatal and child care programs available in different states, e.g. CHIP in California). Most visits by uninsured people to doctors is at emergency rooms, where costs are substantially higher.

There is also a common misconception among Americans that if you are really in trouble--healthwise--you can get help. Although it is illegal, it is not uncommon for hospitals to try to dump emergency patients with no healthcare (I think the rate is 15 to 20%).

Another problem is people who earn too much to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to purchase health insurance. Medicaid only covers 41% of those who are classified as poor and fails to cover the lower middle and middle class workers who make enough but not enough to pay for coverage. This is a significant group of people that is growing in number every month. In fact, free (or reduced rate clinics) have seen a rise in patient population of 45% during the last ten years.

But...I have to admit, government involvement in healthcare can lead to problems. In Canada, there are sometimes problems getting surgeries approved, etc. Britain is also facing difficulties in finding funding for their NHS (plans are underway to restructure the system and include more private companies in the healthcare process). However, many European countries have had success in setting up adequate and high-quality healthcare services. A recent WHO study on the cost-effectiveness of healthcare services around the globe found the USA to be 1st in spending but 54th in terms of access and fairness (WHO World Health Report 2000).
Also, the US already spends nearly twice as much on administrative costs than Canada (per capita) and so if we did institute some type of subsidized health services, we would likely be able to eliminate the long wait times that Canadians experience.
Moreover, queueing for health services already exists in the US, even for those who are insured. Patients already wait sometimes months to be approved to see specialists and have procedures performed. Especially so if you are under a managed care plan. I was a research assistant on an organ transplant and cancer study and I found that patients who were covered under managed care had great difficulty trying to get procedures approved. Some of the health plans even tried to move patients shortly after their surgeries to their own hospitals to decrease costs (moving transplant patients quickly after surgery is not a good idea)

Another sad fact is that as hospitals are facing lower and lower payment schedules from insurance companies, they are increasing the fees they charge to the uninsured. So basically, the poorer uninsured patients are helping to subsidize the lower healthcare costs of the more affluent (not necessarily well off) patients.

It is unlikely that any type of so-called "socialized medicine" or universal coverage will be established in the near future. Very powerful forces (Private Insurance Companies, Hospitals, AMA, etc.) are opposed to it. AMSA (medical students) is one of the few groups who support a one-payer system.
 
May 31, 2001
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Another item I read about relating to skyrocketing costs in healthcare. People in the south-eastern U.S. often drive across the border to Mexico to buy their prescription drugs. Why do they bother? Because the drug companies charge less for the same drugs there, because they know the populace cannot afford it. It is not a charitable act on the part of these companies, they still make their profits. They just charge more here in the U.S. because we expect the high costs and we have insurance to help cover it.

How much of this goes on in different parts of the medical profession? Quite a bit, I think. I seem to recall seeing a $15.00 charge on a hospital bill for a box of Kleenex. :p
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
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<< People in the south-eastern U.S. often drive across the border to Mexico >>


thats a pretty long drive...


right... i don't think so... rights are actually defined by the society that views them. right and privilege could be the same thing. the right to criticize the government is a privilege that we have given outselves in this polity. in our view, we give the government a few of our rights in exchange for it protecting others. for example, we don't have the right to kill other people anymore (except in a few cases like here in texas where you can kill someone on your property after dark), we gave that to the government, and it can excercise that right to try to deter people who commit crimes against the body politic. but healthcare... thats a service... and its not much like the traditional government services (policiing and defense, toll-less roads, parks, etc) which would benefit everyone even if some didn't pay for them. which is why they aren't private sector. healthcare can be separated by who paid for it and who didn't. it could be socially optimal to have some baseline universal protection for say, schoolchildren. we pay for them to be educated, we should make sure that they are healthy when they enter the workplace. that could be just protecting society's investment in those kid's schooling, not even some compassionate view of it. once people are educated and able to stand up on their own two feet and make their own decisions we should let them. if they don't want healthcare then perhaps they shouldn't pay for it. i don't even see it as a courtesy to others like seatbelts (wear if for the cop who'd have to clean you out of the dashboard otherwise).
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,101
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There is no such thing as a &quot;right&quot;, &quot;rights&quot; are an invention of civilization. So, depending on the civilization, healthcare is a &quot;right&quot;.

Interesting note: Socialized healthcare is cheaper, has less beauracracy(sp), and produces healthier populations. The US could cut it's health costs by up to half, if it adopted socialized medicine.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
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A lot of arguments about whether healthcare is a 'right' for every citizen focus on the fact that good healthcare for everyone is a benefit to society as a whole. I would argue that the motivation, the initiative to work for what you get is an even greater benefit to society. We've seen the results of what individual initiative can do versus a system where everything is given as a 'right' (communism anyone?). Work for what you get. Nothing is a 'right' if you don't work for it, unless you are unable to work for it.

Choices in life to me do not count as making on &quot;incapable&quot; of doing something. For example, if you decide to use heroin, and therefore become incapable of supporting yourself, then TOO BAD, that's your choice, your problem, you get NOTHING from those who contribute to society.
 

gunf1ghter

Golden Member
Jan 29, 2001
1,866
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There have been some good posts here and I won't bore you all to death with a long rant on this subject.

Let me bring up something which I don't think has been driven home to a lot of people. There are lots of hard working Americans who simply don't have the income to pay for their own healthcare. As others have pointed out, they make too much to qualify for medicare but make too little to pay for preventative health care (god forbid they break a limb or have some other major injury).

These aren't deadbeats. These are the people that cook your meals, drive your freight around and build your homes. I think a lot of people here who have nice sheltered lives with parents that have decent incomes sometime forget reality, which is that there are a lot of people who do work hard in this country but can't get a nice computer job (such as I have) making a great salary with benefits.

In a country as sophisticated as ours it's hard to imagine that there are plenty of decent hardworking people who are scared that they or their children will ever have to go to the doctor because they can't afford the bills.
 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
29,033
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Here is the situation so far:

My main reason for starting this thread was to let it develop and then point out some semantic issues.

Most people who are advocated the right side of the arguement are using the &quot;The world would be a better place if&quot; approach. This is very nice, but does nothing to address whether or not you have a RIGHT to basic healthcare. shifrbv had a long post to this effect on page 1. He makes a strong case for more government involvement, but doesn't answer the right or privelage question. For those of you that this applies to, what you are really saying is that society or government has the DUTY to TRY to make it available to the masses. It makes good sense for government to do so, and any implied obligation to do so is what you are focusing on.

On the other side, the strongest arguement so far has been made by Capn in his &quot;man in the wilderness&quot; post. The weakness here is that this man is not denied basic healthcare. This issue begs the question of whether or not advanced[\] healthcare is a right or not.

Doboji made a brilliant leap of login in his post when he said, &quot;so we could say that as members of society, we have a right to recieve the benefits that Society is duty-bound to provide. Thereby we have a right to recieve healthcare.&quot;

So there we have it. There are at least three sides to this debate.
Yes - inherently
No - it's societal duty
Yes - society's duty makes it a de facto right


No to mention all of the side discussions about healthcare in general, this has turned into quite a thread...
 

Atlantean

Diamond Member
May 2, 2001
5,296
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I am canadian, I think that it is a right, everyone should be entitled to be fixed without having to be afraid of the bill. Except for those bloody immigrants who haven't lived in the country for very long who decide that they need to feed off of my tax dollars (not to say that all immingrants are bad, just that some of them are)
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,859
13,986
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<< Public health is so incredibly important. When people are healthy, they work more productively. When they are healthy, they don't spread diseases to others. Preventative medicine helps a great deal to decrease the need for emergency medicine. If every person in this country were able to receive the preventative medicine, and treatment for ailments before they worsen, the costs of healthcare would go down, because far fewer people would require super-expensive procedures to cure problems that could have been nipped in the bud. AmusedOne, this isn't like the welfare issue we were discussing earlier. NOBODY is talking about handouts, or &quot;enslaving part of the population.&quot; Children in my state already can receive absolutely free healthcare if their parents don't have insurance. Why? Because it's cheaper to catch illnesses and problems early, than to try and take care of them after many years. Why doesn't that same logic apply to the rest of the population? Many countries in Europe have had socialized medicine for a long time, and many of them have a quality of healthcare that is on par with the US. Also, many of the expensive, modernized treatments here in the US occur in University hospitals, in fact some of the best medicine is practiced there. This contributes to the education of doctors and the progress of modern medicine. Claiming that the only reason we have quality medicine in this country is because it is expensive completely discounts the progress made in the Universities. I also find it completely unlikely that people would stop wanting to be doctors simply because of socialized healthcare. Specialized fields always get more money, whether in the private or public sector. Anyone who only becomes a doctor because it will make them a multimillionaire is the wrong kind of doctor to begin with. There will still be plenty of elective medicine left for them. >>



You can justify it all you want with rationalizations. It doesn't change the fact that one part of the population is enslaved by being forced to pay for the care of another part of the population.

I have no problem with voluntary charities, and give considerable amounts to charities. However, forced payments to support the welfare of others is slavery.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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<< Glenn1: Well maybe you should be the one to tell people that they can't have the $2,000 procedure done because they have no health care at all... >>



Gladly. That's what charities are for.

Of course, if the government which you believe should provide for healthcare as a &quot;right&quot; wasn't so busy picking our pockets at every turn, more would be able to afford health insurance. Let's see: income taxes, social security/FICA taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, sin taxes, death taxes, 'intangible taxes', utility taxes, fuel taxes, alternative minimum taxes, shall i continue?

 

gunf1ghter

Golden Member
Jan 29, 2001
1,866
0
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glenn,

that is sort of dodging the issue isn't it?

naturally there are many areas where the government can/should do better....

there are things that our government could do that would make healthcare more affordable for all Americans. Some of those things would involve using your tax dollars. I don't see why people are so opposed to that. The Government uses your tax dollars to bribe, murder and steal as it is (not to mention all the fun animal experiments we have paid for over the years).
 

Khameleon

Senior member
Apr 12, 2001
337
0
0
AmusedOne, I don't think you understand my point. It will be CHEAPER in the long run to ensure the public health. Preventive care costs far less than emergency care. You already are paying for the care of others, because your insurance premiums go up to cover the costs incurred by other peoples illnesses, or the costs of emergency care for the uninsured. If EVERYONE were able to receive decent health care, your premiums or the taxes you would pay under a socialized model would be less.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,859
13,986
146


<< AmusedOne, I don't think you understand my point. It will be CHEAPER in the long run to ensure the public health. Preventive care costs far less than emergency care. You already are paying for the care of others, because your insurance premiums go up to cover the costs incurred by other peoples illnesses, or the costs of emergency care for the uninsured. If EVERYONE were able to receive decent health care, your premiums or the taxes you would pay under a socialized model would be less. >>



Yeah, have you seen a veterans hospital? A DMV? Public housing? the sad condition in most of our public schools? You want our healthcare to look like that? I don't.

Meanwhile, you still have not addressed the issue that forcing others to pay for the care of others is slavery. You don't give people the option to opt out of paying for this fantasy system, which ursurps their rights.

You've only rationalized it with &quot;it will bring costs down.&quot; What you fail to mention is, it will also dramatically reduce the quality of care for those who are responsibile enough to cover our own care.

Socialism does not lift up the poor. It merely drags the successful down to their level, and commits them to slavery.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
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(AmusedOne: This is a late response... I forgot to subscribe so I lost track of this thread for a while...)


Well I think you and I have certainly reached the point where we disagree... I feel that implementation of Socialized programs can assist greatly in a societies duty to improve the general welfare.

You think that Socialization harms general welfare because it forces some people in society to provide for other people in society. This you entitle as &quot;enslavement&quot;... I heartily disagree with this.. I think the very nature that we ARE a society makes us responsible to contribute to the general welfare according to societies wishing. This is a matter of practicality, it safeguards against many forms of corruption that excess power and money create naturally.

I respect, and understand where your opinion originates in it... I just simply disagree...

-Max
 

xraymongral

Banned
Nov 25, 2000
1,242
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I skipped reading some posts, so I apologize if this is redundent. Health care is a privilage, a privilage of job position, wealth, society to which one belongs to. If society has the cabability, then they are obligated to a certain extent to make sure all have some sort of health care. Wealth has and always will be a differentiater in what kind of health care you recieve. Certain jobs will offer better benifits, it is up to the individual to get into the best job they can find.

But, society also has the right to honest health care. This is where we are failing most people. Way to many sh!tty administrators in health care. Way to many sh!tty doctors too. Way to many lawyers driving up the cost of health care. To many expectations for doctors to be miracle workers. We need to focus on more cost effective means of health care, on not spending $200,000 dollars on a terminal patents last months. On lowering the costs of medicine and medical devices. There are so many fixable reasons why health care does not work as well as it should.
 

shifrbv

Senior member
Feb 21, 2000
981
1
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AmusedOne - Yeah, have you seen a veterans hospital? A DMV? Public housing? the sad condition in most of our public schools? You want our healthcare to look like that? I don't.

It need not look like that. Have you ever seen a health facility of a country with socialized medicine before? I've been in VA hospitals in the US, they are deplorable. I think it's the US people. I was in a hospital in Germany, granted it wasn't fancy like hospitals here in the US, but not like the VA hospitals either. People were friendly and the place was clean. There was a different attitude. In the US, if you're not making the big bucks, people are like, I don't give a sh!t. Over there, people don't have as much, if someone is a healthcare provider, it's because they want to be one and not because they want to be a millionaire.

Our system right now is pretty screwed. If we don't do something soon, especially with the baby boomers getting older and older, we're gonna see a full meltdown.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
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Hey DesertDweller... gonna hit both your posts at the same time to try and make up for some of my neffing earlier today...:)

&quot;And, why exactly is society duty bound to take care of you just because you happened to be born?&quot;

Precisely... because these people are physically IN our society, we must ensure that their basic needs are met, this is the very foundation of society... If society fails to meet the needs of its members the result is chaos. It's either that or we deport non-earning people out of the country... and even then we are eventually forced to face the fact that we live in a global society as well. Then we either deal with the problem, or we try Hitler's problem solving methods.

&quot;So exactly where do those &quot;duties&quot; end? I'm not making six figures
a year, and if you were to provide that for me I just know it would
provide a better form of life for myself. &quot;

Well this is a matter for debate... My way of defining it for myself.. is the society should continue to provide to the point at which the more ambitious members of society are significantly discouraged from their ambitions. This of course leads to a discussion over what &quot;significant&quot; means... my feeling is that we aren't there yet.... and we could stand a few more social programs before we reach that point...

-Max