So, is it ok to spank a child if he misbehaves. By spank I mean using discretion in your physical punishment..ie...No sticks, no broken bones, no cattle prods. Just a couple good whacks on the ass to help him understand the point.
POLL...In regards to the spanking thread. Are you for or against physical disipline?
- Thread starter Shockwave
- Start date
Joined: Aug 2001....
And you've just now figured out theres something wrong with ATOT?!
Wow, talk about behind the curve...
Got spanked by parents a lot as a kid for saying/doing the wrong thing.
/Looks at myself.
Hey I turned out ok. So yay
/Looks at myself.
Hey I turned out ok. So yay
Originally posted by: Cerb
I didn't see a "it differs by situation and child" option.
I'm not against it, but it didn't do sh!t for me.
I didn't put those together. It didn't hurt to do it...
It hurt to do it in view of my parents or in public
Sounds to me like you did get it and just chose to ignore the lessons.
I am all for giving a child a spanking if he misbehaves. Unfortunately if things keep going the way they are it looks like it'll be illegal for me to do it by the time I have children
Cerb
Elite Member
- Aug 26, 2000
- 17,484
- 33
- 86
What lessonsOriginally posted by: ThaGrandCow
Originally posted by: Cerb
I didn't see a "it differs by situation and child" option.
I'm not against it, but it didn't do sh!t for me.
I didn't put those together. It didn't hurt to do it...
It hurt to do it in view of my parents or in public
Sounds to me like you did get it and just chose to ignore the lessons.
?Two stubborn parents -> one very stubborn kid.
Physical pain never really made it up there...neither did taking anything away...if I saw something as useles, and didn't try to do well, I'd need to be convinced it's useful. Similarly, I'd have to be convinced as to why something I did was wrong. It usually didn't happen (it's amazing how well we could argue back then), so I did whatever it was again.
Yeah, 'cause you know spanking them for using a sharpie on the walls will damage them and keep them from becoming healthy responsible adults
)I will say one thing though, I doubt anyone other than my parents could have dealt with me. If I had (or have...can't say it went away!) a way of seeing or thinking of something (which seriously influences behavior), and I couldn't be disproven, I didn't change my views or actions.
I might wonder if I should change, except that the same qualities that made me difficult to handle have come in handy every now and then.
Dammit, I had to put my one smartassed comment in before I quoted Maddox, didn't I. :|
/me sucks @ teh intArweb
- M4H
What a unique subject!
"Children will test these reactions as they grow and their minds start to understand more of the world around them, and some of their actions require negative reinforcement to send a clear signal that what they are doing is wrong."
What is "negative reinforcement"? Sounds like an oxymoron! LOL.
J/K, but I prefer to call it consequences. They learn the consequence of an action. It's your job as a parent to keep it all consistent and logical. When the consequences involve safety, it's your job to keep them from harm's way. They should already be doing exactly as they're told by the time they're able to run in the street or stick a screwdriver in an outlet. When you tell them to stay by your side or leave the screwdriver in the toolbox, that's what they WILL do if you've disciplined them correctly up to that point. If they don't obey by then, you've already screwed up. I imagine that's when the frustration and physical "punishments" kick in.
Damn, it seems so easy in hindsight. I don't recall having to "punish" these boys. Not saying they weren't, but I can't remember any time off hand. Well, they were yelled at when I had to tell them something twice. That could be considered "negative reinforcement" or "punishment", I guess. Didn't happen often, though. Ground rules, habits and hierarchy were established VERY early on and followed through religiously.
"Spanking as a last resort."
I should say so! LOL. It seems so pathetic, barbaric and desperate! I guess I'd liken it to Palestinians throwing rocks at Israelis. By the time it comes to that, the war is already lost. It's not a matter of discipline anymore, it's more like survival and making the best of a bad situation. Actually, it's not funny. Kind of sad & silly. It would be funny if the stakes weren't so high. I guess if you mix a big dollop of love in the equation, the family will overcome poor discipline practices. Of course we all know society suffers when there is no discipline at all. Spanking would be the lesser of two evils there!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don't know if you guys saw the show, or read his thoughts from his site, but I wanted to hear what his point of view was. The show had just started when I started the topic, so I didn't know what his big ideas were.
Now, having seen the show, I can say I agree with him 80%. One thing that clicks is "Allow Them A Sense of Mastery". That goes hand in hand with what I know about the Montessori teaching methods.
I've never had to spank, and never used time outs. Skoorb asked for, "...a good way to get a misbehaving 2 year old to stop doing something really freaking annoying..."[/i] All I can say is study the logic behind Montessori. In a nutshell, quit telling kids what they can't or shouldn't do, and give them the power to DO things on their own! For one quick example, we showed our two year old how to USE the VCR instead of telling him to "not touch". He was instructed to rewind and remove his tapes and put them back in their jackets, then back on the shelf when he was done with them. No other toys or projects can be started till the last one is put away. No arguing, that's just the way it is and you MUST follow up on this ALWAYS. I think Dr. Phil touched on that too.
I've mentioned before that this course of study, Montessori, should be taught in public schools before people even become parents. Use that as a frame of reference for your own parenting style, because it's a rock solid foundation to build on!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I love, is people without the wherewithal to raise even one kid, popping out three inside of five years! The stress and turmoil of getting married and trying to make a go of it at a young age isn't enough. They have to throw a kid or three into the mix!
In this topic I've seen people use the term discipline and spanking interchangeably... WRONG! Some people can have well disciplined kids without spanking. Some can have poorly disciplined kids with spanking. The ultimate goal is, or should be, well disciplined, self sufficient future citizens. Everybody is going to have a different method of getting there. Some will NEVER achieve this goal.
To me, it's like hearing these tales of woe regarding computer hardware and software problems. Two people with identical systems have problems. One handles the issues in a methodical, linear fashion and moves on. The other damns Microsoft, AMD or VIA to hell, and struggles along until they finally abandon it and build a new system. Trouble is, you can't FDISK your kids and start over. Why do some parents raise perfectly well disciplined kids without corporal punishment, and others beat their kids daily and never see positive results? You thinks some kids are just "born bad"?
That's another point I agreed with Dr. Phil about. Unless the kid has a problem like autism or retardation, they all CAN be disciplined. It's totally the responsibility of the parent to follow through from birth to adulthood. It CAN be done without spanking. It's been proven over and over. Some people feel spanking is the quick and easy solution. Actually, the alternative methods are FAR easier, more effective and less stressful in the long run. It's a simple matter of starting out with a good foundation. It's much harder to try and fix things after they've gone to hell. No surprise there. A little study goes a LONG way!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God, so many people equate discipline with punishment! To make a long story short, it's a matter of consequences. You make a choice, you deal with the consequences. Same with kids. Obviously, some people make spanking a consequence, but that's pretty barbaric. If you start kids out right, the consequences will be rational and so will their choices.
Study about Maria Montessori and what discipline really is.
Montessori explained: How it began, Why it works
"...on a road trip, if your 4 year old is in the back kicking your seat screaming, bitching, etc. etc. you can do anything but spank him?"
What's the "road trip" for? Family vacation? A "Wally World" adventure? Not much sympathy on your part if you can't understand your child's qualms with a "road trip". Didn't your parents ever subject you to the same torture? How can you not empathize with your kid?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMO, spanking kids is pretty pathetic and lazy. Kids should be disciplined, no question, but that does not mean spanking is required. Damn, this is something that REALLY should be taught at school. One of the most important things we do as members of society is raise children. Yet, not one lick about parenting is taught in public schools. THIS IS STUPID!
Here's a copy and paste from the past. It sums up my opinion on the whole subject:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Parenting should be taught in school, preferably wrapped around the Montessori model. Get that system down pat from the start, and make EVERYONE'S life easier. Following up on a threat is critical, but it shouldn't even come to that. They simply need to learn about the consequences of their actions, and that doesn't mean "punishment". They need to be allowed some control of their life. Once they have that, they get a handle on responsibility and consequences very easily.
There are times when they have no choice in a matter. That's when it's imperative that what you say is law. When I say come here, or get in bed, there is NO discussion. It used to bug me when my wife would say, "Go brush your teeth, OK?" NO! Not OK! It's brush your teeth, PERIOD. This is NOT a question. Of course, they should already be in the habit of brushing their teeth as a matter of routine, without being told. Kids need that. Hell, we ALL need good habits!
"Children will test these reactions as they grow and their minds start to understand more of the world around them, and some of their actions require negative reinforcement to send a clear signal that what they are doing is wrong."
What is "negative reinforcement"? Sounds like an oxymoron! LOL.
J/K, but I prefer to call it consequences. They learn the consequence of an action. It's your job as a parent to keep it all consistent and logical. When the consequences involve safety, it's your job to keep them from harm's way. They should already be doing exactly as they're told by the time they're able to run in the street or stick a screwdriver in an outlet. When you tell them to stay by your side or leave the screwdriver in the toolbox, that's what they WILL do if you've disciplined them correctly up to that point. If they don't obey by then, you've already screwed up. I imagine that's when the frustration and physical "punishments" kick in.
Damn, it seems so easy in hindsight. I don't recall having to "punish" these boys. Not saying they weren't, but I can't remember any time off hand. Well, they were yelled at when I had to tell them something twice. That could be considered "negative reinforcement" or "punishment", I guess. Didn't happen often, though. Ground rules, habits and hierarchy were established VERY early on and followed through religiously.
"Spanking as a last resort."
I should say so! LOL. It seems so pathetic, barbaric and desperate! I guess I'd liken it to Palestinians throwing rocks at Israelis. By the time it comes to that, the war is already lost. It's not a matter of discipline anymore, it's more like survival and making the best of a bad situation. Actually, it's not funny. Kind of sad & silly. It would be funny if the stakes weren't so high. I guess if you mix a big dollop of love in the equation, the family will overcome poor discipline practices. Of course we all know society suffers when there is no discipline at all. Spanking would be the lesser of two evils there!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don't know if you guys saw the show, or read his thoughts from his site, but I wanted to hear what his point of view was. The show had just started when I started the topic, so I didn't know what his big ideas were.
Now, having seen the show, I can say I agree with him 80%. One thing that clicks is "Allow Them A Sense of Mastery". That goes hand in hand with what I know about the Montessori teaching methods.
I've never had to spank, and never used time outs. Skoorb asked for, "...a good way to get a misbehaving 2 year old to stop doing something really freaking annoying..."[/i] All I can say is study the logic behind Montessori. In a nutshell, quit telling kids what they can't or shouldn't do, and give them the power to DO things on their own! For one quick example, we showed our two year old how to USE the VCR instead of telling him to "not touch". He was instructed to rewind and remove his tapes and put them back in their jackets, then back on the shelf when he was done with them. No other toys or projects can be started till the last one is put away. No arguing, that's just the way it is and you MUST follow up on this ALWAYS. I think Dr. Phil touched on that too.
I've mentioned before that this course of study, Montessori, should be taught in public schools before people even become parents. Use that as a frame of reference for your own parenting style, because it's a rock solid foundation to build on!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I love, is people without the wherewithal to raise even one kid, popping out three inside of five years! The stress and turmoil of getting married and trying to make a go of it at a young age isn't enough. They have to throw a kid or three into the mix!
In this topic I've seen people use the term discipline and spanking interchangeably... WRONG! Some people can have well disciplined kids without spanking. Some can have poorly disciplined kids with spanking. The ultimate goal is, or should be, well disciplined, self sufficient future citizens. Everybody is going to have a different method of getting there. Some will NEVER achieve this goal.
To me, it's like hearing these tales of woe regarding computer hardware and software problems. Two people with identical systems have problems. One handles the issues in a methodical, linear fashion and moves on. The other damns Microsoft, AMD or VIA to hell, and struggles along until they finally abandon it and build a new system. Trouble is, you can't FDISK your kids and start over. Why do some parents raise perfectly well disciplined kids without corporal punishment, and others beat their kids daily and never see positive results? You thinks some kids are just "born bad"?
That's another point I agreed with Dr. Phil about. Unless the kid has a problem like autism or retardation, they all CAN be disciplined. It's totally the responsibility of the parent to follow through from birth to adulthood. It CAN be done without spanking. It's been proven over and over. Some people feel spanking is the quick and easy solution. Actually, the alternative methods are FAR easier, more effective and less stressful in the long run. It's a simple matter of starting out with a good foundation. It's much harder to try and fix things after they've gone to hell. No surprise there. A little study goes a LONG way!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God, so many people equate discipline with punishment! To make a long story short, it's a matter of consequences. You make a choice, you deal with the consequences. Same with kids. Obviously, some people make spanking a consequence, but that's pretty barbaric. If you start kids out right, the consequences will be rational and so will their choices.
Study about Maria Montessori and what discipline really is.
Montessori explained: How it began, Why it works
- Montessorians try to teach with kindness, using the positive incentives of pride in achievement, craftsmanship for a job well done. They avoid any approach which uses carrot or stick, punishment or prize, blackmail or bribery. Maria Montessori discovered that children are well aware of the value of their achievements, and can see through lavish praise, particularly when a mistake is obvious. Like any intelligent people children wish to learn from their mistakes, to do it better next time, and so need objective assessment of what went wrong.
Because punishment usually humiliates, and most often causes a child to stop trying rather than to try to improve, it does not feature in a Montessori nursery. A child needs constructive help with errors and sympathetic assistance if there is an accident. Punishment rarely takes him further. When a grown-up spills a cup of coffee people are solicitous and helpful; if a child spills milk he is accused of carelessness, in spite of the fact that he has had less practice with drinks. In Montessori classrooms adults are sympathetic because they realise such mistakes are unintentional, and they respond by showing the child how to clear up the spilled milk, so he knows what to do next time...
"...on a road trip, if your 4 year old is in the back kicking your seat screaming, bitching, etc. etc. you can do anything but spank him?"
What's the "road trip" for? Family vacation? A "Wally World" adventure? Not much sympathy on your part if you can't understand your child's qualms with a "road trip". Didn't your parents ever subject you to the same torture? How can you not empathize with your kid?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMO, spanking kids is pretty pathetic and lazy. Kids should be disciplined, no question, but that does not mean spanking is required. Damn, this is something that REALLY should be taught at school. One of the most important things we do as members of society is raise children. Yet, not one lick about parenting is taught in public schools. THIS IS STUPID!
Here's a copy and paste from the past. It sums up my opinion on the whole subject:
- I can see that Ela and I are on the same page. I think the problem that keeps creeping in, is mistaking punishment for discipline. Spanking is a quick punishment. It's used as a consequence of not doing as told. Parents have to be disciplined about disciplining their kids. There are generally more logical steps and consequences that could be employed before it reaches a spanking point. This may take a little more time at first, but saves countless future arguments and... spankings!
It seems so easy in hindsight. Just a matter of laying down reasonable rules and seeing that they're followed. It's got to be done in a "disciplined", consistent manner. Mom can't allow things that dad prohibits. You can't say one thing one day and something different the next. You have to lay down the ground rules early, so there is no misunderstanding. My boys have NEVER defied either of us, because that was not an option. I can't ever remember them telling me no. Never.
You guys have got to read the Montessori method before even having kids. It should be a mandatory class in all schools. Hell, the kids in public schools should all be taught using these methods.
A quick example that might explain why our boys weren't "terrible" in their twos would be the way we dealt with things that they weren't "allowed" to touch. In the Montessori method, all their toys have a place. No toy is removed from it's place, till the last toy is put back. Sound impossible? Nope, it's easy. Just a matter of setting up the rules and following through.
At two years old, they liked to watch Sesame Street videos. Instead of telling them not to touch the TV and VCR, we showed them how to turn them on and operate them. They could find their own tapes and play them when they wanted. The tapes were rewound and put away when done. Like I said, you have to read up on this whole Montessori teaching program. It's a way of life that saves a LOT of stress.
- IMO, people confuse discipline with spanking. I believe in discipline, but not spanking. One other thing to consider is when to discipline. If you're constantly harping at your child, it will fall on deaf ears when important issues crop up. Lastly, a parent has to be consistent. When you tell a child to do, or not do something, you have to follow through. Personally, I tell them once and only once. After that they face the consequence of not listening the first time.
My children are 10 and 15 years old now, but I still remember dealing with 2 year olds. The trick is to keep them busy with their own toys or activities. Don't merely tell them no from across the room. You'll have to frequently get up and direct them to an activity that they are allowed and encouraged to do. Say, "That's grandma's vase, here are your toys to play with." No need to tell them no, over and over. Doing that only lessens the meaning of the word, no.
The consequences of continuing to do something that they have been told not to, could range from spanking to time outs or anything in between. I never resorted to spanking or time outs. I have been known to yell, but only once every ten days or so. That's really all that was required to discipline our boys. Their manners are always commented on and I couldn't be more proud of them.
I wish our local schools offered lessons in parenting. By the time someone has started down the road to poor parenting habits, it's really hard to change. Again, the keys are consistency, following through and not sweating the small stuff.
Sorry to go mouthing off like this in only my second post, but it's a huge issue and I wouldn't say anything if I hadn't been down this road already. A good source for more info can be found in any Montessori based training guides.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Parenting should be taught in school, preferably wrapped around the Montessori model. Get that system down pat from the start, and make EVERYONE'S life easier. Following up on a threat is critical, but it shouldn't even come to that. They simply need to learn about the consequences of their actions, and that doesn't mean "punishment". They need to be allowed some control of their life. Once they have that, they get a handle on responsibility and consequences very easily.
There are times when they have no choice in a matter. That's when it's imperative that what you say is law. When I say come here, or get in bed, there is NO discussion. It used to bug me when my wife would say, "Go brush your teeth, OK?" NO! Not OK! It's brush your teeth, PERIOD. This is NOT a question. Of course, they should already be in the habit of brushing their teeth as a matter of routine, without being told. Kids need that. Hell, we ALL need good habits!
Hell, that's just a SMALL sampling of the number of posts I've made on this same subject, over and over again. I didn't have to type a single word this time!
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