Oh, and I've bought lots of free software.
Every OpenBSD release since 2.9
A couple of versions of RedHat.
Various other little pieces of software.
I feel they deserve it.
Every OpenBSD release since 2.9
A couple of versions of RedHat.
Various other little pieces of software.
I feel they deserve it.
It is nice to have a choice about your cash layout and still have a legal system. There's a LOT of pirated Windows software out there; very few users have actually bought every piece of software on their Windows boxes.
The trick is, we're comparing a system that does pretty much anything you could ever want out of the box for free to systems with a few thousand dollars worth of 1s and 0s on them, and personally (and for the love of God I know I'm not speaking for everyone) I like a lot of the 'nix apps better than their costly counterparts.
The trick is, we're comparing a system that does pretty much anything you could ever want out of the box for free to systems with a few thousand dollars worth of 1s and 0s on them, and personally (and for the love of God I know I'm not speaking for everyone) I like a lot of the 'nix apps better than their costly counterparts.
Well the problem here is that The Gimp has that interface and almost everything else in the GUI has an interface with a menubar. Hell, probably the only way I figured out how to use Gimp was because I read the first tip of the day that says "almost every menu item is accessed through a right click menu." A program I use in Windows, Irfanview has a similar interface which took me forever to get used to. I don't see what drives people to use this.
It has nothing to do with the operating system, and everything to do with the GIMP. In windows, almost all applications have a "file" menu with "save" on it. In KDE, almost all applications have a "File" menu with "save" on it. In macOS, almsot all applications have a file menu with "save" on it.
The gimp has a non-intutive interface that no other application uses on any OS.
Almost every single car has the gear shift between the front seats or on the steering column. If the GIMP was a car, the shifter would be in the glovebox.
For my work servers? Yes I'd pay for it. For my personal use? No, as it sucks for usability. Linux still has a long way to go to catch upto Windows for usability.
Because Microsoft Office, with the exception of Access and Outlook, are the best office programs out there. OpenOffice is similar, but the load time sucks and it has a hard time reading files with any special formatting with them. And Access is good for some of the most basic needs, but it can't be overextended.
Vi an editor, but it is just a text editor. Whoop de do, it can modify a series of ASCII characters in a better way than the one next to it. Again, I don't want to have memorize a series of keyboard shortcuts and commands like I did in Wordpefect for DOS. What's the point behind text files besides config files and readme. Yea there's source codes, but IDEs simplify that considerably.
I would have no problem trying to use Linux for certain applications. For example, gcc is a better and more 'correct' compiler than most of the stuff for Windows. But still, projects like WINE and CrossoverOffice show that a lot of the Linux software needs improving. If Linux software is as good as it is, why do projects like WINE remain so popular?
i agree. windows and windows apps are much more polished and easier to install/use than linux ones. i've installed and used various flavours of linux but always find myself going back to windows. for me it's more of something to play around with rather than to use.
<insert long scathing anti-linux sentiment here>
Phew...now that it's out of my system...
Linux does not do everything I want from my computer...and if you say "games" I'll beat you with your own limbs because it's not just games. It's also very unstable...everytime I have to troubleshoot or create a linux build...I feel like I'm stacking a deck of playing cards...one screwy software package...one messed up install....and BLAMMO....back to the drawing board. Not to mention that you have to be at a CONSTANT vigil to keep your software packages up to date for fear of security holes. Granted, the PC and Mac have the same problem, but nowhere near the level unix has. And lest I forget...did I mention that software management on linux bites the big one?
Also, for the record...I like VI...a lot. never need to leave my home row.
Phew...now that it's out of my system...
Linux does not do everything I want from my computer...and if you say "games" I'll beat you with your own limbs because it's not just games. It's also very unstable...everytime I have to troubleshoot or create a linux build...I feel like I'm stacking a deck of playing cards...one screwy software package...one messed up install....and BLAMMO....back to the drawing board. Not to mention that you have to be at a CONSTANT vigil to keep your software packages up to date for fear of security holes. Granted, the PC and Mac have the same problem, but nowhere near the level unix has. And lest I forget...did I mention that software management on linux bites the big one?
Also, for the record...I like VI...a lot. never need to leave my home row.
Because...say it with me...ALMOST EVERYONE USES THE MICROSOFT (re: proprietary) SOFTWARE. The reason OpenOffice has trouble with heavily formatted Office files is because they have had to reverse-engineer support for proprietary file types. And a large part of the reason that Wine exists is because people want to run their Windows games in linux...if the gaming companies would make a linux port of their software (which is sometimes not very difficult, especially if they're using the Quake or Unreal engines) you might see Wine slow down.
I'm right there with you on the text editor stuff, but a large part of the reason those projects exist is because of the enormous market share Windows/Office hold...it's there for interoperability (something Microsoft, for business reasons that are understandable, could give a damn about).
I'm right there with you on the text editor stuff, but a large part of the reason those projects exist is because of the enormous market share Windows/Office hold...it's there for interoperability (something Microsoft, for business reasons that are understandable, could give a damn about).
I have 'nix machines at work with over 500 days of continuous uptime and you're telling me linux is unstable?
Software management is pretty easy on certain distros and not on others, but with KDE you've always at least got kpackage.
I don't go nuts keeping my machines up to date to any more of an extent than when I was using Windows at home...check every now and then, download the updates. The main difference there is that, due to the community, problems get identified and fixed quickly.
Software management is pretty easy on certain distros and not on others, but with KDE you've always at least got kpackage.
I don't go nuts keeping my machines up to date to any more of an extent than when I was using Windows at home...check every now and then, download the updates. The main difference there is that, due to the community, problems get identified and fixed quickly.
You have a valid point on Office files. But there is really no standard out there for formatted office files except XML, and I don't think there's any incetive for Microsoft to follow that, sadly. I think that people that use Linux should not attempt to play games. It seems to be just such a waste of time.
But I agree with you. I am trying to compare 'free' Linux programs with 'commercial' Windows programs. Unfortunately my company has bought a lot of my software for me so I'm not taking cost into account but I definitely feel that it's not a fair comparison. I don't think 'free' software can live forever. Businesses and end-users are willing to pay moderate prices for functional software and most open-source projects are done in the 'spare time' of programmers and that is the fundamental reason they feel unpolished.
I agree: games are pretty much just a waste of time 
A lot of them run natively on linux (UT2K3, Quake3, RTCW, etc.) but a lot of them don't, so I don't cry over it...I don't play them that much anyway.
I think the trick is "moderate" cost. The price on a lot of software has just been skyrocketing (and I don't just mean Microsoft's stuff), and if I can get a free equivalent that does everything I need then I'm pretty happy about it.
That said, there is a lot of GREAT software out there that is only written for Windows, and if there was a Linux-ported version I just might go out and buy it. I just hate to see people bash a product's "usability" because it doesn't function exactly like the one they are used to; ever seen an XP user pick up OSX for the first time? Now that's amusing...everything is different
A lot of them run natively on linux (UT2K3, Quake3, RTCW, etc.) but a lot of them don't, so I don't cry over it...I don't play them that much anyway.I think the trick is "moderate" cost. The price on a lot of software has just been skyrocketing (and I don't just mean Microsoft's stuff), and if I can get a free equivalent that does everything I need then I'm pretty happy about it.
That said, there is a lot of GREAT software out there that is only written for Windows, and if there was a Linux-ported version I just might go out and buy it. I just hate to see people bash a product's "usability" because it doesn't function exactly like the one they are used to; ever seen an XP user pick up OSX for the first time? Now that's amusing...everything is different
Actually, to follow your analogy, GIMP has the shifter on the steering column, and all other cars have it between the seats ... you don't have to reach as far to get it on the column. A right click from anywhere, and there it is.
It bugged me for about the first 2 minutes ... somehow I adjusted.
I use both Linux and Windows.
Its sort of funny here. If all you want from a computer is to play games (that only run under windows)
Then linux isn't the choice. Seriously I work with some Linux guys that like to play games and thats why
they run windows when they play games. So if Linux isn't your choice why is it linuxs fault.
Just use Windows and stop complaining that linux doesn't meet your demands.
Linux is making strides to become a desktop alternative to say Windows. Its not their yet, but
its closing ground. Yes alot of Linux applications give you the minimium need to get something
done. But is that any worse than applications that are so over bloated that they give you so much
stuff you will never need and cost tons of money for. I mean how many people use all the features
of Word and Excel. Yet more and more you see people buying Office Suites for 400 plus dollars.
That said sometimes you have to buy office, say you work uses it. Then Linux probably isn't your
OS.
Another thing about permissions and such. Guess what you can set up 2000 and XP to be just like Linux
where you need to be administrator to do anything. Oh and with the latest verison of Redhat, if you want
to access an option and using that gui menu option requires root, it just prompts you with a window asking for root
password. And I think gnome (or KDE or both) will hold it root privledges until you release them so you don't have to type it in all
the time. So you don't have to log out and log in. Also you wouldn't need that anyway. You could do a su (super user)
in a terminal window and just call out the programs that require root from there. That prevents the log out and
log in problem.
Don't complain about editors you don't use or need. If you don't need vi or emacs, don't use them. They aren't the
option for you. I can do alot of stuff with Emacs and vi, and I have highly customized shell scripts. I can do alot
with them and they help me do alot of stuff faster than I would normally do things. Guess what I think
gui file systems are basically crap. But if you like them fine, I know people that like them. I prefer to use a shell.
Whatever suites you.
Again use the os that suites your needs. Would you buy a 2-seater sports car if you need to hall dirt.
As far as applications that are "Stolen" lets face its. most people are stupid when it comes to computers.
Just because an application looks like another one just means they copied the interface. Maybe it was a good
interface that everyone liked. Its not like thats never happened before. People that are new to something like
Linux are going to feel more comfortable if they see stuff that looks familar. Oh Evolution, this is just Outlook.
Or Xmms, this is Winamp.
Though I will admit, it will take more than a novice to realize that Redhat didn't ship XMMS with the codecs to
play mp3s and how to fix that problem. But thats a distro problem not an OS.
If Windows fits your needs and you want to us it. Don't let some pencil necked geek tell you Linux is
better, because its better for him. Same respect, don't try to tell someone where linux fits what they need
and they want to use it, that they should be using Windows (unless their an idiot and really should be using Windows).
As for the real question. If Linux started to cost money. I would pay for it, but I would expect more from it.
I'd probably expect something like a Mac.
Its sort of funny here. If all you want from a computer is to play games (that only run under windows)
Then linux isn't the choice. Seriously I work with some Linux guys that like to play games and thats why
they run windows when they play games. So if Linux isn't your choice why is it linuxs fault.
Just use Windows and stop complaining that linux doesn't meet your demands.
Linux is making strides to become a desktop alternative to say Windows. Its not their yet, but
its closing ground. Yes alot of Linux applications give you the minimium need to get something
done. But is that any worse than applications that are so over bloated that they give you so much
stuff you will never need and cost tons of money for. I mean how many people use all the features
of Word and Excel. Yet more and more you see people buying Office Suites for 400 plus dollars.
That said sometimes you have to buy office, say you work uses it. Then Linux probably isn't your
OS.
Another thing about permissions and such. Guess what you can set up 2000 and XP to be just like Linux
where you need to be administrator to do anything. Oh and with the latest verison of Redhat, if you want
to access an option and using that gui menu option requires root, it just prompts you with a window asking for root
password. And I think gnome (or KDE or both) will hold it root privledges until you release them so you don't have to type it in all
the time. So you don't have to log out and log in. Also you wouldn't need that anyway. You could do a su (super user)
in a terminal window and just call out the programs that require root from there. That prevents the log out and
log in problem.
Don't complain about editors you don't use or need. If you don't need vi or emacs, don't use them. They aren't the
option for you. I can do alot of stuff with Emacs and vi, and I have highly customized shell scripts. I can do alot
with them and they help me do alot of stuff faster than I would normally do things. Guess what I think
gui file systems are basically crap. But if you like them fine, I know people that like them. I prefer to use a shell.
Whatever suites you.
Again use the os that suites your needs. Would you buy a 2-seater sports car if you need to hall dirt.
As far as applications that are "Stolen" lets face its. most people are stupid when it comes to computers.
Just because an application looks like another one just means they copied the interface. Maybe it was a good
interface that everyone liked. Its not like thats never happened before. People that are new to something like
Linux are going to feel more comfortable if they see stuff that looks familar. Oh Evolution, this is just Outlook.
Or Xmms, this is Winamp.
Though I will admit, it will take more than a novice to realize that Redhat didn't ship XMMS with the codecs to
play mp3s and how to fix that problem. But thats a distro problem not an OS.
If Windows fits your needs and you want to us it. Don't let some pencil necked geek tell you Linux is
better, because its better for him. Same respect, don't try to tell someone where linux fits what they need
and they want to use it, that they should be using Windows (unless their an idiot and really should be using Windows).
As for the real question. If Linux started to cost money. I would pay for it, but I would expect more from it.
I'd probably expect something like a Mac.
I even installed it on a Windows workstation at work so that I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of drawing up a purchase order for someone who would use Photoshop once a month; they didn't seem to mind the interface once they "got it". I can see how it would be a bit uncomfortable, though, since almost no other programs do things that way.
I don't think 'nix counts as Linux. Out of most of the most popular 'nix operating systems out there, guess which one is the least stable? In comparison to Windows 2000 server, Linux probably runs 15% longer but that doesn't excuse it for having FreeBSD run three times as long before it has to be rebooted. A lot of the unstablity, longevity and security issues are due to the admin not doing their job as well as it can be done. MS seems to know this and that is why they turned everything off in Server 2003 and made people set a password.
Originally posted by: Lonyo
I blame everything on Microsoft and I use Windows
Me too....Also teachin myself Linux at the moment......
On the original question ... If I was in a situation where I needed a guarenteed response to questions, problems, etc. very quickly, I would buy a distro & support contract. I'm not (at home or work) so I don't.
Regarding the rest of the assorted rants
ftp client: try ncftp ... filename completion & progress bars, as well as some other nice stuff. It's probably on every Linux distro I've tried. Compare that to the completely craptastic windows cli ftp client. Does Windows ship with any other ftp client, or do you have to use IE or install something else? It's been so long since I've used windows to any degree that I don't know anymore.
"intuitive" interface: as someone once said, the only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned. Frankly, I find the windows model of gui for everything kludgy and cumbersome. So, when you say windows has an "intuitive" interface, you really mean "I know the windows interface". Since when is clicking start to stop intuitive?
Granted, the learning curve to "knowing" the linux interface is steeper, but IMO, it goes much higher.
cli vs. gui: to each his own ... you can do most things in linux with a gui interface these days. I find the cli much faster for most things compared to pointy-clicky through the gui interface. But linux gives you that choice, and more (there is often more then one gui interface avaiable for many things ... pick the one you like.)
stability: That was a joke, right??? Anyway, as far as the "stack of cards" reference ... if something goes wrong with my linux box, I've got at least a decent chance of fixing, and actually knowing what went wrong ... vs. the 3 r's of windows system maintenance: restart, reboot, reinstall ... maybe you run a magic registry cleaner in there somewhere along the way. Linux software jsut seems alot less hostile to me ... I never have new apps step on my system the way I remember stuff doing back in the bad old windows days.
desktop speed: Well, I haven't run windows natively for a long time, but I have no speed complaints at all on fairly modest hardware ... not sure what else to say on this.
editors: so pick one. There are literally doezens spanning from ed up to complex IDEs like kdevelop, etc. Bitching about linux because you don't like vi or emacs is like bitching about Fords becase you don't like manual transmissions
oh well, enough for now. Not sure why I bother posting in these religious debates.
Regarding the rest of the assorted rants
ftp client: try ncftp ... filename completion & progress bars, as well as some other nice stuff. It's probably on every Linux distro I've tried. Compare that to the completely craptastic windows cli ftp client. Does Windows ship with any other ftp client, or do you have to use IE or install something else? It's been so long since I've used windows to any degree that I don't know anymore.
"intuitive" interface: as someone once said, the only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned. Frankly, I find the windows model of gui for everything kludgy and cumbersome. So, when you say windows has an "intuitive" interface, you really mean "I know the windows interface". Since when is clicking start to stop intuitive?
Granted, the learning curve to "knowing" the linux interface is steeper, but IMO, it goes much higher.
cli vs. gui: to each his own ... you can do most things in linux with a gui interface these days. I find the cli much faster for most things compared to pointy-clicky through the gui interface. But linux gives you that choice, and more (there is often more then one gui interface avaiable for many things ... pick the one you like.)
stability: That was a joke, right??? Anyway, as far as the "stack of cards" reference ... if something goes wrong with my linux box, I've got at least a decent chance of fixing, and actually knowing what went wrong ... vs. the 3 r's of windows system maintenance: restart, reboot, reinstall ... maybe you run a magic registry cleaner in there somewhere along the way. Linux software jsut seems alot less hostile to me ... I never have new apps step on my system the way I remember stuff doing back in the bad old windows days.
desktop speed: Well, I haven't run windows natively for a long time, but I have no speed complaints at all on fairly modest hardware ... not sure what else to say on this.
editors: so pick one. There are literally doezens spanning from ed up to complex IDEs like kdevelop, etc. Bitching about linux because you don't like vi or emacs is like bitching about Fords becase you don't like manual transmissions
oh well, enough for now. Not sure why I bother posting in these religious debates.
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