POLL: For you History Buffs {The Fall Of Berlin....}

[Brutuskend]

At the end of WWII, the allies decided to let the Red Army take Berlin. Eisenhower had stated two reasons for this.

#1 To spare American lives.

#2 They had already drawn up plans on how Germany would be divided up and since Russia was to get Berlin he didn't see taking it and then backing out just to hand it over to the Red Army.

Do you think part of his decision was based on knowing HOW the Red Army would treat the Germans after the fall of Berlin? Keep in mind that the concentration camps had already been found and perhaps he wanted to "punish" Germany without being culpable himself?

How do you think the outcome would have been different if Britain and the US had taken Berlin? Would Hitler and the few other top leaders that took their lives STILL have done it, or would they have trusted that they would have received better treatment at the hands of the victors?

Do you think Eisenhower made the right choice and for the right reason?

 

[dighn]

nice poll

 

[Actaeon]

Nice poll!

 

[Brutuskend]

fixed

I guess I forgot to hit enter!

 

[bobbybe01]

Well if it wasn't for Russian involvement, the war would've gone a lot longer and maybe Hitler would have won. Even though it was Hitler's big mistake to try to carry a two front war and invade Russia (in the winter no less), you have to give the Russians credit--I think that's why Eisenhower allowed Russia a peice of Berlin.

 

[Feldenak]

Ermm...reserved spot for a more insightful post (I need to think).

 

[yankeesfan]

Stalin actually fooled Eisenhower by saying that the Americans could take it (Russia didn't want it beacuse it offered no strategic importance) and then surprised them by seizing it before they did. Churchill wanted to take Berlin, but Eisenhower agreed with Stalin (although Stalin's generals ran off to the airport to take them to the front with orders to tak Berlin).

 

[BooGiMaN]

what are you smoking.... hitlers not dead i saw it on the inquirer he is living on a small island with batboy..except he is not sporting a goatee and a mullet.

 

[CrazyHelloDeli]

Originally posted by: bobbybe01
Well if it wasn't for Russian involvement, the war would've gone a lot longer and maybe Hitler would have won. Even though it was Hitler's big mistake to try to carry a two front war and invade Russia (in the winter no less), you have to give the Russians credit--I think that's why Eisenhower allowed Russia a peice of Berlin.

Hitler would not have won regardless. Had the Russian front been a victory for Germany, it would have ultimatley led to a nuke over Berlin. The war was lost for Germany any way you cut it.

 

[Taggart]

We SHOULD have plowed through Berlin and attacked the Communists like Patton suggested...this would have eliminated about 45 years of Cold War and decreased the chance of nuclear proliferation.

Anyway, like you said we were going to carve up Berlin regardless. I think half would have gone to Russia anyway. Hitler and the others were going to kill themselves regardless.

Given the realistic circumstances Eisenhower did the only thing he could do for political reasons, which was let the Russians take Berlin.

 

[BooGiMaN]

Originally posted by: HelloDeli

Originally posted by: bobbybe01
Well if it wasn't for Russian involvement, the war would've gone a lot longer and maybe Hitler would have won. Even though it was Hitler's big mistake to try to carry a two front war and invade Russia (in the winter no less), you have to give the Russians credit--I think that's why Eisenhower allowed Russia a peice of Berlin.

Hitler would not have won regardless. Had the Russian front been a victory for Germany, it would have ultimatley led to a nuke over Berlin. The war was lost for Germany any way you cut it.

not according to some shows i have seen they were very close to developing their own nuclear bomb and the planes to transport it to new york...but things started to fall apart as the allies began to win and the war drew to a close.

the plane incidently was the same plane that we modeled part our stealth bomber after....

 

[Coquito]

It was probably a combination of all the reasons you stated.

As for the suicides... I think many of the leaders would of still killed themselves simply out of loyalty, along with remorse for how insane they must of been to follow such a tyrant. On the other hand, I think there were quite a few officers who were just doing there job, & probably would have just surrendered, had the west taken Berlin.

There were also quite a few civilian suicides. I'm not sure how it would of played out though. I guess they killed themselves more because of the shame, then of the coming retribution.

 

[Scouzer]

Originally posted by: bobbybe01
Well if it wasn't for Russian involvement, the war would've gone a lot longer and maybe Hitler would have won. Even though it was Hitler's big mistake to try to carry a two front war and invade Russia (in the winter no less), you have to give the Russians credit--I think that's why Eisenhower allowed Russia a peice of Berlin.

Common misconception. German declaration of war on Soviet Russia: June 22, 1941.

Second front opened: September 12, 1943 with the first landings in mainland Italy.

It was not really a two front war, and the Germans had no reason to think it was going to last until the British got their sh!t together and the Americans joined the war...

 

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: Coquito
It was probably a combination of all the reasons you stated.

As for the suicides... I think many of the leaders would of still killed themselves simply out of loyalty, along with remorse for how insane they must of been to follow such a tyrant. On the other hand, I think there were quite a few officers who were just doing there job, & probably would have just surrendered, had the west taken Berlin.

There were also quite a few civilian suicides. I'm not sure how it would of played out though. I guess they killed themselves more because of the shame, then of the coming retribution.

Actually there were QUITE a few civilian suicides. And after Berlin fell, Hitler's successor stalled signing the surrender documents for several days so as many people as possible could flee to the British and US lines to surrender. Finally the US said they would close their lines in 48 hours regardless of the signing, forcing Hitler's successors capitulation.

 

[Coquito]

Originally posted by: Brutuskend

Originally posted by: Coquito
It was probably a combination of all the reasons you stated.

As for the suicides... I think many of the leaders would of still killed themselves simply out of loyalty, along with remorse for how insane they must of been to follow such a tyrant. On the other hand, I think there were quite a few officers who were just doing there job, & probably would have just surrendered, had the west taken Berlin.

There were also quite a few civilian suicides. I'm not sure how it would of played out though. I guess they killed themselves more because of the shame, then of the coming retribution.

Actually there were QUITE a few civilian suicides. And after Berlin fell, Hitler's successor stalled signing the surrender documents for several days so as many people as possible could flee to the British and US lines to surrender. Finally the US said they would close their lines in 48 hours regardless of the signing, forcing Hitler's successors capitulation.

You were watching the history channel last night too.

 

[Brutuskend]

Yes, yes I was.

 

[Schadenfroh]

the leaders, if unable to escape, would have still offed themselves, they knew they were dead men walking no matter what side captured them. As for who should have taken berlin, i would have let who could get there the quickest and was able to take it, take it in order to end the war as soon as possible. in this case, the russians were in a much better position for the invasion of berlin.

 

[Scouzer]

Lets not forget the Russians lost 80,000 dead and 270,000 wounded in taking Berlin alone. Casualty figures like that in a single battle by a western country in World War 2 would be extremely frowned upon. It would raise a lot of eyebrows asking 'Why did we lose all those men when we've already won the war?'.

I don't think it was politically acceptable for the Allies to have taken Berlin...

 

[Stark]

here's an even better question:

if hitler didn't stupidly pick a fight with Russia, would the US and Britain have been able to beat Germany and Japan?

 

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: Stark
here's an even better question:

if hitler didn't stupidly pick a fight with Russia, would the US and Britain have been able to beat Germany and Japan?

That's one I have pondered for years.

Given the Technology of the German war machine and their overall propensity to follow their leaders blindly, I think if they hadn't picked on too many people at once, we would all be goose stepping right now.

Edit: And if he hadn't run off some of the best minds in his country (mostly Jewish) the world would never have had a chance!

 

[Scouzer]

Another common misconception. Russia is Communism. Germany is Facism. They are the polar oppisites on the political spectrum, and they would have fought at some point undoubtedly. Compounding this Hitler was insane and would not be content without more 'lebenstraum' for his mighty Third Reich. Stalin was paranoid and would have been delighted to be the first to strike. If the Germans didn't declare war in 1941, they would have went at it for sure before 1945 at the latest.

The ALLIES (There are more people fighting than the US and Britain kthx) would NOT have been able to take Germany and Japan without Soviet intervention. The simplistic way to look at Allies vs. Germany:

The Americans won the air over Europe
The British won the seas
The Soviets won the ground

They could have taken Japan, but then the Germany Army would be up to nasty things in Europe, OR they could have held off (not defeated) the Germans at the expense of making ground incredibly slowly on Japan (like how it really happened).

 

[GTaudiophile]

I'm reading a book right now on the fall of Berlin in 1945 by Antony Beevor.

 

[Mill]

I think the right decision was made. The Cold War would have happened regardless, and it was NOT feasible to push through Berlin and attack the Soviets. We successfully avoided an actual war with the Soviets, and the race against each other helped push technology higher than it probably would have gone had we not been competing. Secondly, there is little to suggest the American people had the heart or the will to attack the Soviets, and as the Germans saw the Soviets were so intent on keeping people out that they engaged in burning of their own cities. I do not think it made logistical or political sense to invade the Soviet Union, nor to incur the causalities that would have resulted if we had taken Berlin. I'd like to hear what school of thought actually suggests that a conventional or nuclear battle with the Soviets would have been preferable to the Cold War. The Soviets would have had the advantage of personnel(numbers), fighting at home(incredibly tough on an invader), and training(think cold winters). The US was very successful in using the CIA and other agencies(including defectors and Double Agents) to keep track of Soviet strength, technology, etc. Was it not for Aldrich Ames and Robert Hansson, we'd have probably ended the Cold War earlier. Because of their espionage they basically destroyed almost all of the double agents we had and the CIA/FBI were at a loss to understand how this was happening, and to replace anyone.

 

[gururu]

Anyone play axis and allies? Russia DESERVED a piece of Germany, at least as much as anyone else. Regardless, they would have insisted on it, already having broke German lines at the beginning of the end. Germany invaded Russia for a reason. Russia was an incredibly important region from a strategic standpoint. If the Germans would have taken it, it would have been all over. There would not have been anyway for any other nation to retake it by land, and they certainly would not have 'nuked' it because of the russian civilian population. As well, the industrial assets would have increased Germany's wealth and production capacity to insane proportions. As far as nuking Germany...it would never have happened. Japan was hit because it was an island.
With Russia, Germany would have had its own nuke in no time. They were only a few steps behind us. But it was not to be. The attack on Russia was too taxing.

 

[Brutuskend]

I personally don't think Joseph Goebbels would have killed his whole family and himself had the fall of Berlin to the Soviets not been immanent. He knew what fate awaited his daughters at the hands of the Red Army. Hitler probably would have done himself in regardless of who he expected to be captured by however.