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Poll: Do the survivors and the families of the Tulsa massacre deserve reparations?

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Should the survivors and their families be paid reparations from the state of Oklahoma?

  • Yes

    Votes: 33 68.8%
  • No

    Votes: 15 31.3%

  • Total voters
    48

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
14,532
4,616
136
Considering that (at least in my experience) most of the time in developed nations, they wait long enough for the people affected to have died out before they admit they did something shitty, let alone look into making amends for it, I think it's reasonable for those a generation on from those directly affected by the massacre to get something for it.

After all, I doubt that many (any?) of us can claim to know what it's like to start with literally nothing. Even though my parents' business went down the toilet, they still got a council house from the state, they had their possessions, and with that a reasonable chance to get back up on their feet. As a result of them managing to do so, they were able to help me when I needed it. To have your house burnt down and (chances are) losing everything except your lives and ending up homeless possibly to boot, what are the chances of your kids building their lives reasonably?

I could easily see that situation affecting a family line for multiple generations. As far as 'how far back should reparations be considered for', surely that at least partially depends on when the state decides to act like mature grown-ups and try to satisfactorily address the situation. Kicking the can down the road rarely makes a dire situation like that easier to fix. Had the state stepped up to the plate and did its best for those affected then, there wouldn't be a substantial argument for reparations now. Consequences are a bitch.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,715
12,050
136
Seems like this (and things like this) are a lot more straight-forward than general reparations for a couple of centuries of slavery. It happened within the lifetimes of people still living, to people who were US citizens, and it seems clear who the victims were and also that the state was complicit. How is it any different from any other case of paying compensation for criminal damages due to the actions or negligence of the state or a corporation?
That's a valid question but one for another thread. I'm sticking strictly to Tulsa. Since you asked the question did you know reparations were paid to slave owners for the loss of their "stock"? Talk about a slap in the face.
 

pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
8,196
3,194
136
That's a valid question but one for another thread. I'm sticking strictly to Tulsa. Since you asked the question did you know reparations were paid to slave owners for the loss of their "stock"? Talk about a slap in the face.
I know that was the case here, for British slave owners. Scots Nats seem to forget that a very substantial (and disproportionate) share of that "compensation" went to Scottish slave-owners.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,715
12,050
136
I know that was the case here, for British slave owners. Scots Nats seem to forget that a very substantial (and disproportionate) share of that "compensation" went to Scottish slave-owners.
Slaves themselves were promised compensation from the federal government and we know what happened there.

However I'm sticking to Tulsa
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,715
12,050
136
Black businesses still being shut out of the more prestigious development opportunities when it should be the other way around.

But as Tulsa authorities provide millions in financial incentives to revitalize the district ahead of an anticipated influx of tourists for this year’s centennial of the 1921 bloodshed, Black entrepreneurs say they are being threatened with erasure yet again, shut out of Greenwood’s most prestigious development projects and priced out of prime retail locations.

Some $42 million in city tax incentives and loans — race-blind under Oklahoma law — has largely benefited White-owned firms that won the majority of contracts to develop lucrative parcels closest to downtown, according to city officials and business leaders.

Tulsa officials say the city has just begun paying attention to the dearth of Black property ownership and will soon open up more land for redevelopment, north of the interstate and farther from the central business district. But it is already too late to make a difference in the most desirable part of Greenwood.
Remember Greenwood was black owned before the city and white mobs stole it from them and killed residents

Tulsa’s historic Black Wall Street faces erasure by White developers - The Washington Post
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,332
784
126
Was iffy on reparations, but digging deeper on this changed my views (I went to great schools but never fully learned this stuff growing up. Which says a lot). I think of all the lost generational wealth that was STOLEN by systematic racism. And this wasn't an isolated incident.
 

Juiblex

Senior member
Sep 26, 2016
367
147
116
I want reparations because the Christians came to Norway and we stopped worshipping Odin... That hurts my feelings. Christians owe me $1 billion. NOW.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
27,863
4,911
126
I want reparations because the Christians came to Norway and we stopped worshipping Odin... That hurts my feelings. Christians owe me $1 billion. NOW.
I mean we can take you as serious here and laugh at you as you explain how thats going to work or we can take you as trying to be edgy and sort of politely ignore you in a slightly embarrassed way?

Your choice.
 
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VW MAN

Member
Jun 27, 2020
175
219
76
I want reparations because the Christians came to Norway and we stopped worshipping Odin... That hurts my feelings. Christians owe me $1 billion. NOW.
Got any more disingenuous bullshit you wish to vomit out of your cum hole?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,715
12,050
136
Decades of harm to descendants of the Tulsa race massacre.
Data from subsequent censuses show a striking contrast to the rising Black prosperity of 1910s Tulsa. Earnings steadily declined for Black household heads in Tulsa from 1920 to 1930 to 1940. How do we know that this decrease was due to the massacre and not simply changing local or national conditions? History is not a laboratory, with controlled experiments. But in a control group of similar cities—such as Oklahoma City; Wichita, Kansas; and Little Rock, Arkansas—the earnings of Black residents remained roughly constant over the same 20-year period, despite the ravages of the Great Depression. In 1920, wages of Black household heads were 9 percent higher in Tulsa than in our set of 14 control cities; by 1940, they were 7 percent lower. Meanwhile, white Tulsans’ wages followed the same pattern as in the control cities—roughly constant from 1920 to 1930 before modestly declining from 1930 to 1940. And throughout the 20 years, white wages were higher in Tulsa than in the control cities.
The 1921 Tulsa Massacre Caused Survivors Decades of Harm - The Atlantic
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,804
20,668
136
I want reparations because the Christians came to Norway and we stopped worshipping Odin... That hurts my feelings. Christians owe me $1 billion. NOW.
The various Scandinavian tribes "stole" those original German gods from the various German tribes, so you need to go after the Norse, first.

But I mean, if you're serious, Christianity certainly owes a debt in the many, many $trillions to the rest of humanity, for the incalculable murder it has committed over millennia in the name of their "Prince of Peace."

But you're probably not very serious, being an illiterate troll
 

Juiblex

Senior member
Sep 26, 2016
367
147
116
I mean we can take you as serious here and laugh at you as you explain how thats going to work or we can take you as trying to be edgy and sort of politely ignore you in a slightly embarrassed way?

Your choice.
Not that this is possible for your kind, but maybe you'll wise up and realize that if we want to give in to reparations for things done generations ago, we can go back centuries and millennia and realize how stupid all of it is and nothing will ever get sorted out. And in the end Chicago will still be Chicago.

But you all can keep trying... It's funny from my end as well.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
8,293
5,422
136
Not that this is possible for your kind, but maybe you'll wise up and realize that if we want to give in to reparations for things done generations ago, we can go back centuries and millennia and realize how stupid all of it is and nothing will ever get sorted out. And in the end Chicago will still be Chicago.

But you all can keep trying... It's funny from my end as well.
You do know these things don't have to devolve into a reductio ad absurdum, right? That it's possible to call for reparations in certain cases without insisting on reparations for every wrong in history?

There are still people alive who were victims of the massacre; it was a deliberate, horrific attack on an entire community prompted solely by racism; the effects were obvious and are still being felt today. Even if you don't think there should be reparations for slavery (I'd argue there should), it would be very reasonable to call for reparative efforts here.
 
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m8d

Senior member
Nov 5, 2012
331
424
136
No, because there is no way to right past wrongs, especially not ones which occurred that long ago.

By this logic, we should have to pay reparations to all blacks in this country over slavery. Then to the descendants of all the Japanese we interned during WWII. And all the native Americans of course.

And that's just in this country. Think about all that shit that has happened in others. Should the Jews get reparations from every European country in which Jews were massacred over the past 2000 years? In other words, all of them. Probably not...

CZg9RsXUsAAhjqm.jpg
 

Meghan54

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2009
9,993
2,942
136
You do know these things don't have to devolve into a reductio ad absurdum, right? That it's possible to call for reparations in certain cases without insisting on reparations for every wrong in history?

There are still people alive who were victims of the massacre; it was a deliberate, horrific attack on an entire community prompted solely by racism; the effects were obvious and are still being felt today. Even if you don't think there should be reparations for slavery (I'd argue there should), it would be very reasonable to call for reparative efforts here.
Your attempting reasoned discussion is futile. I have the same crap living around me (I live in GA) and in “discussions” about this or any other issue that requires any transfer of help—be it monetary or otherwise—such as health care or education, the common retort/theme is “I don’t want none of my taxes payin’ fer THEIR (fill in blank—edu., food, etc).”
Same shit with this. It’s almost comical watching it play out, tho…in a sad sort of way. Watching the primarily white power structure continue to assert that it, and only it, has the ability and right to define what racism is, who suffers from it, if anyone, and to what degree victims suffer from said racism, when found.

An d it also gets the right to belittle, dismiss, or otherwise ignore claims/facts/demonstrations of racism found every day by POC. Any input into discussions about racism by POC, even if their opinions are sought out/allowed/requested/granted, are met either with derision or with a pat on the head and a proverbial wink of the eye.

And on it goes.
 
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pmv

Diamond Member
May 30, 2008
8,196
3,194
136
Not that this is possible for your kind, but maybe you'll wise up and realize that if we want to give in to reparations for things done generations ago, we can go back centuries and millennia and realize how stupid all of it is and nothing will ever get sorted out. And in the end Chicago will still be Chicago.

But you all can keep trying... It's funny from my end as well.

But this isn't hundreds of years ago, it's only 100 years ago - within the lifetime of some people still living.

How far do you take this "you can't go back and compensate injustices of the past" theory of yours? Should the US close all the courts and shut down the justice system, because any time anyone is prosecuted for anything they can argue "hey judge, yes I parked in that no-parking zone, but it was over a month ago - different times, different standards - why keep digging up the past?".

Presumably you also oppose the attempt of families of 911 victims to sue the Saudi government for its involvement (is that case still ongoing, by the way?). And even if you caught all the perpetrators of that particular atrocity, better just left them off, after all it was decades ago now.

You're wheeling out an argument that's supposed to be used for demands for reparations for the displacement and murder of American Indians, or for all the crimes of European colonialism (where it makes a little more sense) for a vastly-more-recent crime. Just wondering how far you are planning on taking that.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
15,433
2,989
126
Your attempting reasoned discussion is futile. I have the same crap living around me (I live in GA) and in “discussions” about this or any other issue that requires any transfer of help—be it monetary or otherwise—such as health care or education, the common retort/theme is “I don’t want none of my taxes payin’ fer THEIR (fill in blank—edu., food, etc).”
Same shit with this. It’s almost comical watching it play out, tho…in a sad sort of way. Watching the primarily white power structure continue to assert that it, and only it, has the ability and right to define what racism is, who suffers from it, if anyone, and to what degree victims suffer from said racism, when found.

An d it also gets the right to belittle, dismiss, or otherwise ignore claims/facts/demonstrations of racism found every day by POC. Any input into discussions about racism by POC, even if their opinions are sought out/allowed/requested/granted, are met either with derision or with a pat on the head and a proverbial wink of the eye.

And on it goes.


Well said; it's the same with abusive individuals/groups the world over.

Abused individual: "That hurts me".

Abuser: "No it doesn't"

As if the abuser gets to decide what is hurtful to another person.
 
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Matt390

Member
Jun 7, 2019
87
38
61
You do know these things don't have to devolve into a reductio ad absurdum, right? That it's possible to call for reparations in certain cases without insisting on reparations for every wrong in history?

There are still people alive who were victims of the massacre; it was a deliberate, horrific attack on an entire community prompted solely by racism; the effects were obvious and are still being felt today. Even if you don't think there should be reparations for slavery (I'd argue there should), it would be very reasonable to call for reparative efforts here.

It wasn't solely prompted by racism. The original black guy they wanted to lynch was accused of assaulting a white woman. Repatriations are usually payed for by the people or entity that caused they harm. In this case, it was the people in the mob.
 

Matt390

Member
Jun 7, 2019
87
38
61
Considering that (at least in my experience) most of the time in developed nations, they wait long enough for the people affected to have died out before they admit they did something shitty, let alone look into making amends for it, I think it's reasonable for those a generation on from those directly affected by the massacre to get something for it.

After all, I doubt that many (any?) of us can claim to know what it's like to start with literally nothing. Even though my parents' business went down the toilet, they still got a council house from the state, they had their possessions, and with that a reasonable chance to get back up on their feet. As a result of them managing to do so, they were able to help me when I needed it. To have your house burnt down and (chances are) losing everything except your lives and ending up homeless possibly to boot, what are the chances of your kids building their lives reasonably?

I could easily see that situation affecting a family line for multiple generations. As far as 'how far back should reparations be considered for', surely that at least partially depends on when the state decides to act like mature grown-ups and try to satisfactorily address the situation. Kicking the can down the road rarely makes a dire situation like that easier to fix. Had the state stepped up to the plate and did its best for those affected then, there wouldn't be a substantial argument for reparations now. Consequences are a bitch.

Mommy government isnt responsible for everything. The government is not responsible for the actions of a lawless mob.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,715
12,050
136
It wasn't solely prompted by racism. The original black guy they wanted to lynch was accused of assaulting a white woman. Repatriations are usually payed for by the people or entity that caused they harm. In this case, it was the people in the mob.
So the lynching without a trial wasn't prompted by racism? I guess Emmit Till wasn't either?
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
8,293
5,422
136
It wasn't solely prompted by racism. The original black guy they wanted to lynch was accused of assaulting a white woman. Repatriations are usually payed for by the people or entity that caused they harm. In this case, it was the people in the mob.
It's entirely about racism. The accusation of assault that started everything was based on a false claim of assault that the alleged victim denied; it hinged around racist fears of Black men violating White girls. It was racist talk in the newspaper that led a Black group to protect the accused man; it was a racist standoff at the courthouse that led to gunfire; the White mob certainly didn't need to raze the larger "Black Wall Street."

And if racism wasn't the driving factor, why were historians silent about it? Why weren't people charged for the violence? Why did it take the National Guard to bring things under control? This was not just the act of a mob. It had the tacit approval of local authorities, the media, and a White community that wanted its stereotypes validated and to stifle Black success.

And reparation (not repatriation, that's a different word) is not just about getting compensation from the immediate perpetrators. If a government facilitated, knowingly tolerated and downplayed racist attacks, it ought to make amends for those attacks even if it wasn't directly involved — especially when there are still survivors.
 

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