Poll: Biggest American (War) Cluster F?

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Biggest US military cluster f?

  • Vietnam

  • Korea

  • Iraq II


Results are only viewable after voting.

master_shake_

Diamond Member
May 22, 2012
6,425
292
121
I don't give a fuck about your giant wall of text. You believe whatever you want.

this,

this is what people say when confronted with something that goes against their conventional views on something.

wow...

it's not a matter of belief its a fact, you can't really argue facts just disagree with them. even then...
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
Korea, also bloody, forgotten, and has left us NK. Deeply impoverished, hostile to it's neighbors, and nuclear armed. 60 years later and no resolution in sight.

I think you need to study the Korean War a little more because I am not sure you really understand what happened there. Had we not gotten involved, all of Korea would be like North Korea is today. The Soviets and Chinese are 100% to blame for NK. Some think we should've bombed into mainland China to force China to completely withdraw, but I am not sure that would've worked. Truman was afraid that escalating the war with China would give the Soviets an opportunity to invade Western Europe.
 
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HTFOff

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2013
1,292
56
91
Vietnam War - 58,209 deaths
Korean War - 36,516 deaths
Iraq War - 4,488 deaths
Afghanistan War - 2,229 deaths

A total body count including civilians - Korean war takes the cake. Close to 3 million civilians died during that conflict. 3 Million. :(
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
Where is the option for all of the above? Truly the US has been losing war after war now for a couple generations. Our war machine is built for profit and has unsuccessfully executed a war since the time of my Grandfather. I'll give credit to a joint operation like Desert Storm but given the 3 choices above holy crap we did an awful job.

Leaving out Iraq, you can successfully argue that political considerations are what caused the outcomes of Vietnam and Korea. In the case of Korea at least, those political considerations were probably wise.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
this,

this is what people say when confronted with something that goes against their conventional views on something.

wow...

it's not a matter of belief its a fact, you can't really argue facts just disagree with them. even then...


No, it's that I'm not going to argue with someone that ignores or dismisses out of hand factual evidence to the contrary, like the Iraq Liberation Act. He also seems unlikely to see anything but what he wants to see in the most credible sources about Iraq and WMD, like the final ISG report. I don't care to argue with someone who's mind is completely closed and unwilling to consider any evidence which conflicts with his views.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
76
this,

this is what people say when confronted with something that goes against their conventional views on something.

wow...

it's not a matter of belief its a fact, you can't really argue facts just disagree with them. even then...
Yes....So sadly pathetic. A simplified presentation of corroborated events of history and facts dismissed by an illiterate who's so terrified of corrections against what he feels must be and against being found in error, that he must dismiss outright, a meaningless 'wall of text...' I mean, how dare one summarise events with sentences... o_O My previous post outlining from multiple prime sources of how no legal authorisation for war existed against Iraq, in 2003. The truth is freaky to neocon schmucks.

Here lies glenn1, an intellectually numbing example of citizenry enabling politically lead disaster and crime:
No, it's that I'm not going to argue with someone that ignores or dismisses out of hand factual evidence to the contrary, like the Iraq Liberation Act.
With substance, I certainly did dismiss all that you wrote in defence of the criminal Iraq war.

So glenn1, let's take this further to demonstrate your ineptness in comprehension and display to tis forum, again, how wrong you are.

The Iraq Liberation Act? You are such a neocon tool to mischaracterise it for warfare, yet it was some simple legislative platitude limited against:
SEC. 8. RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.

Nothing in this Act shall be construed to authorize or otherwise
speak to the use of United States Armed Forces
(except as provided in section 4(a)(2)) in carrying out this Act.
SEC. 4 2) Military <<NOTE: President.>> assistance.--(A) The
President is authorized to direct the drawdown of defense
articles from the stocks of the Department of Defense, defense services of the Department of Defense, and military education and training for such organizations.
glenn1 is either a lying neocon tool or an incompetent twit, who well over a decade later continues on with bullshit falsehoods that such a US domestic law -- particularly his chosen legislation that specifically denied the authorisation of US military forces -- permitted a military invasion of Iraq.

That's just US domestic law, let alone my previous outlining of just how wrong glenn1 was with his repetition of the other common neocon lie concerning the United Nations Security Council having already presented continued authorisation for military action against the sovereign state of Iraq.

glenn1, you lost on yet another point.

He also seems unlikely to see anything but what he wants to see in the most credible sources about Iraq and WMD, like the final ISG report.
You aren't even aware of weak summaries against existing stockpiles of chemical weapons were present in Iraq. Here's a hint, glenny, you're bloody occupational forces, after a decade in Iraq found nada to save face for your state's and the UK's (...oh must neither forget the massive coalition of forces including the Danes and Poland......) WMD lie.

If such a castigating report against breach of terms by Iraq was present, then there would have been little concern by your worships Bush, Cheney, and Blair to have the UN Security Council sit to reassess. As my previous post damned them, they couldn't, as they knew to have nothing credible, and therefore didn't. Rather than approach the Security Council, the sent token Powell to make a lying propaganda ass of himself in front of the General Assembly. That hurt the USA's international credibility even further. Yet too many dumb Yanks sucked it up. War was known in the UK and USA governments to be unjustified and illegal, but war was early set for an unstoppable go. The reality against Iraq's possession of offensive WMDs was known by much of the world governments then and proved later to be, that Yankee land and the Brits were full of shit, and later stained their faces in dung when incapable of finding a grain to parade on TV. glenn1, you partisan head is so far up the neocon's asses, that you're actually still rehashing their failed arguments for war then, as a current justification now for those 2003 high international crimes of aggression.

I comprehend the topic and am certainly open minded enough to discuss every point that you raised, and with concisely accurate comprehension, citing from the prime sources to support the stated truth while contradicting your falsehoods.

I don't care to argue with someone who's mind is completely closed and unwilling to consider any evidence which conflicts with his views.
No glenn1, such a personal critique has no basis against me. Understanding little if any of the topic, dismissing in failure, and arguing with BS, that's all you. Thanks for playing and displaying all that's wrong with a criminally inclined segment of this world.

Sorry, this post was bit crude, yet out of belittling frustration against the continued incompetent presence of the partisan neocons defending likes as glenn1. Hell, I even read of Cheney taking a thrashing by FOXNews........ Glenny boy, you're sorely out of touch.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Yes....So sadly pathetic. A simplified presentation of corroborated events of history and facts dismissed by an illiterate who's so terrified of corrections against what he feels must be and against being found in error, that he must dismiss outright, a meaningless 'wall of text...' I mean, how dare one summarise events with sentences... o_O My previous post outlining from multiple prime sources of how no legal authorisation for war existed against Iraq, in 2003. The truth is freaky to neocon schmucks.

Here lies glenn1, an intellectually numbing example of citizenry enabling politically lead disaster and crime:With substance, I certainly did dismiss all that you wrote in defence of the criminal Iraq war.

So glenn1, let's take this further to demonstrate your ineptness in comprehension and display to tis forum, again, how wrong you are.

The Iraq Liberation Act? You are such a neocon tool to mischaracterise it for warfare, yet it was some simple legislative platitude limited against:
SEC. 8. RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.

Nothing in this Act shall be construed to authorize or otherwise
speak to the use of United States Armed Forces
(except as provided in section 4(a)(2)) in carrying out this Act.
SEC. 4 2) Military <<NOTE: President.>> assistance.--(A) The
President is authorized to direct the drawdown of defense
articles from the stocks of the Department of Defense, defense services of the Department of Defense, and military education and training for such organizations.
glenn1 is either a lying neocon tool or an incompetent twit, who well over a decade later continues on with bullshit falsehoods that such a US domestic law -- particularly his chosen legislation that specifically denied the authorisation of US military forces -- permitted a military invasion of Iraq.

That's just US domestic law, let alone my previous outlining of just how wrong glenn1 was with his repetition of the other common neocon lie concerning the United Nations Security Council having already presented continued authorisation for military action against the sovereign state of Iraq.

glenn1, you lost on yet another point.

You aren't even aware of weak summaries against existing stockpiles of chemical weapons were present in Iraq. Here's a hint, glenny, you're bloody occupational forces, after a decade in Iraq found nada to save face for your state's and the UK's (...oh must neither forget the massive coalition of forces including the Danes and Poland......) WMD lie.

If such a castigating report against breach of terms by Iraq was present, then there would have been little concern by your worships Bush, Cheney, and Blair to have the UN Security Council sit to reassess. As my previous post damned them, they couldn't, as they knew to have nothing credible, and therefore didn't. Rather than approach the Security Council, the sent token Powell to make a lying propaganda ass of himself in front of the General Assembly. That hurt the USA's international credibility even further. Yet too many dumb Yanks sucked it up. War was known in the UK and USA governments to be unjustified and illegal, but war was early set for an unstoppable go. The reality against Iraq's possession of offensive WMDs was known by much of the world governments then and proved later to be, that Yankee land and the Brits were full of shit, and later stained their faces in dung when incapable of finding a grain to parade on TV. glenn1, you partisan head is so far up the neocon's asses, that you're actually still rehashing their failed arguments for war then, as a current justification now for those 2003 high international crimes of aggression.

I comprehend the topic and am certainly open minded enough to discuss every point that you raised, and with concisely accurate comprehension, citing from the prime sources to support the stated truth while contradicting your falsehoods.

No glenn1, such a personal critique has no basis against me. Understanding little if any of the topic, dismissing in failure, and arguing with BS, that's all you. Thanks for playing and displaying all that's wrong with a criminally inclined segment of this world.

Sorry, this post was bit crude, yet out of belittling frustration against the continued incompetent presence of the partisan neocons defending likes as glenn1. Hell, I even read of Cheney taking a thrashing by FOXNews........ Glenny boy, you're sorely out of touch.

Oh yes, your second wall of text and irresistible Canadian charm have convinced me. Please do collect George W. Bush for trial and the U.S. government will defer to your geopolitical expertise in the future.

Or we'll just continue invading other countries with impunity and you and your country stand by impotently, pout and stomp your foot, and demonstrate your superior sense of morality. It must really suck to know that a posting on a tech forum is the closest thing to actual influence you will ever have.

And now that you have gotten to rage, perhaps we can return to the actual topic of the thread?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,384
34,928
136
Oh yes, your second wall of text and irresistible Canadian charm have convinced me. Please do collect George W. Bush for trial and the U.S. government will defer to your geopolitical expertise in the future.

Or we'll just continue invading other countries with impunity and you and your country stand by impotently, pout and stomp your foot, and demonstrate your superior sense of morality. It must really suck to know that a posting on a tech forum is the closest thing to actual influence you will ever have.

And now that you have gotten to rage, perhaps we can return to the actual topic of the thread?
Your continued support for war criminals is disgusting.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Your continued support for war criminals is disgusting.

Opinion duly noted. Now since the obligatory denunciation of Dubya has been completed can you all stop derailing the thread and allow it to return to the original topic raised by the OP?
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
BTW, want to read something completely crazy about the Vietnam War, according to (Pentagon Papers whistleblower) Daniel Ellsberg?

Daniel Ellsberg: United States Nearly Used Nukes During Vietnam War
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/...d-states-nearly-used-nukes-during-vietnam-war

We came dangerously close to nuclear war when the United States was fighting in Vietnam, Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg told a reunion of the Stanford anti-Vietnam War movement in May 2014. He said that in 1965, the Joint Chiefs of Staff assured President Lyndon B. Johnson that the war could be won, but it would take at least 500,000 to one million troops. The Joint Chiefs recommended hitting targets up to the Chinese border. Ellsberg suspects their real aim was to provoke China into responding. If the Chinese came in, the Joint Chiefs took for granted that we would cross into China and use nuclear weapons to demolish the communists.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Iraq will be.

First of all we could have built a 100% renewable energy grid with the 2-3 trillion it costed. (among other things) It was expensive as hell compared to past wars and we were richer then.

Then we took semi stable ME and broke it to point we will create a fundamentalist superpower. Not just in Iraq but whole muslim world is getting more radical. And their radicals getting more credence due to beating back the infidels, good ole fashioned violence and everyone loves a strong horse. Fundis are getting stronger. All these counties..Algeria, lybia, egypt, syria, jordan, iraq, pakistan, etc are at brink of exploding into fundamentalist regimes. Compared to 1970s in which they were very westernized.

Third MASSIVE missed opportunity that wont come back. After 911 we had world wide support to stamp out terror orgs even inside muslim countries who would do it for us. Instead with Iraq invasion and diversion we made allies and muslims hate and distrust us. From now on terror will be "you guys deserved it for all the muslims you killed/killing." And we will get very little support outside muslim world and inside..

Vietnam? pfft 30 years later we were fantastic trading partners with both them and their funders china. It was much cheaper too. Not in lives though.:(

But the islamic wars are just starting.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
From those three probably Korea. It was disastrous early on for us.

During Nam' American forces had a 10-1 k/d ratio.

Although America led the fight, we fought along side dozens of other countries in Iraq.

The insurgency in iraq was probably a walk in the park compared to the hordes of chinese/nk forces and the vietcong.

WTF? Korea was a win.

Koreans love us and are successful economically and politically (more so than we are now). Maybe a half win since we didnt get whole peninsula to tilt west but still calling it a disaster is totally off base let alone greatest one.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
Iraq will be.

^^^

Yeah that. The thing about this question the OP poses is that Iraq has not yet fully played out.

For that matter, Korea hasn't played out either.

Only Vietnam has played out, and it played out in the form of a defeat.