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Poll: Are you in favor of school prayer?

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Ok, this has all been entertaining...

Here's a question, who here believes that children that pray at school (during their own free time between classes, at lunch, etc) should be forced to stop? I'm not talking about a teacher leading prayer, I'm not even talking about student led prayer meetings during school free time. I'll put this as simply as possible...

How many of you believe that a kid should be punished, repremanded, or forced to stop if they're praying at school during their own free time?
 
Thorn,

I don't have a problem with students praying on their own time.

When you use the term "school prayer" the general consensus is that you are referring to school led prayer.

When you hear them talking about "school prayer" on the news, that's what they are talking about. When this debate started up, that's what nearly everyone here was talking about. Certain individuals tried to twist the debate into saying that people who were opposed to "school prayer" were trying to eliminate prayer in schools... I don't think you will find many here who make that claim.
 
Oh, I don't know about that... I've seen lots of comments in this thread such as "Hell no! Kids should pray at home!" and "Prayer has no place in school". I just want to see how many people would like to see a ban on any prayer, even if the kid is praying during their own free time and of their own volition. It's easy to disagree with teacher led prayer and scheduled teacher led prayer meetings (of which I'm opposed to both), it's much harder to actively protest a child's choice to pray if it's their own free will. By the Constitutuon we have the right to practice our religion... and if you want to get to the brass tacks of it, the Constitution guarantees the right of a group of students to congregate and pray at school. There aren't any stipulations on these rights, they're clearly defined.

This is what I feel are the legal rights a child has to pray in school.

1.) They can individualy pray during any free time they have.

2.) They can congregate and pray during any school sanctioned free time (before school, after school, during lunch, between classes).

3.) If these rights are infringed upon by anyone (someone disrupts their gathering by using physical or verbal abuse) they have the right to approach their teachers, principal, or other school figure representing authority (such as a guard) and expect them to make it safe for them to practice their reigion. This may require the school official to provide for them a place to pray.

Who disagrees with these rights?
 
Not I said the fly...

However with regard to your 3rd point, I do not believe school officials would need to provide them a place to pray. What should be done is to punish the students who are doing the "bullying" student or group of students who are praying. This would prevent the school officials from appearing to be promoting that specific religion.
 
Thorn,

See, you are trying to put some spin on this now..... originally you asked if anyone was opposed to kids praying during their own free time.

Now you are talking about the right to congregate in order to practice prayer. Where will these students congregrate? How will you make sure that this doesn't interfere with the freedom of the other students who don't hold the same beliefs?

I say you can't do it. It's not like their's going to be one peaceful group of students who all get along in perfect harmony. Christianity is the most fractured religion on the planet (maybe with the exception of Hinduism) there are several large groups that call themselves "Christians" that can't stand other groups that call themselves "Christians". So who is going to referee these group prayer sessions?

This is the problem that I have.... you start out making sure everyone agrees with a small, reasonable and in no way offensive request, and you try to expand it into something that some people (like myself) will find offensive. Then the likely tactic is to claim those same people are against the original proposal.

It's a pretty tacky debate tactic.

There are probably some people who think that students congregrating to pray on school grounds is perfectly fine... I am not one of them. Church's are for congregations, school is for education.
 


<< This is the problem that I have.... you start out making sure everyone agrees with a small, reasonable and in no way offensive request, and you try to expand it into something that some people (like myself) will find offensive. Then the likely tactic is to claim those same people are against the original proposal. >>


I don't care what you find offensive, it's the law for them to be able to practice their religious beliefs, there's not a law stating that you have to be comfortable with it.


<< See, you are trying to put some spin on this now..... originally you asked if anyone was opposed to kids praying during their own free time. >>


They have the Constitutional right to pray, and the Constitutional right to congregate. No spin, just the law.


<< Now you are talking about the right to congregate in order to practice prayer. Where will these students congregrate? >>


How about outside, beside the flag pole, under the flag that represents their right to freedom? How about the Nurse's office when he/she's at lunch... you know, the same place where contraceptives are dispensed regardless of how doing so offends certain religious groups?


<< How will you make sure that this doesn't interfere with the freedom of the other students who don't hold the same beliefs? >>


That's simple, I wouldn't. They don't have the right to not be offended, they have the right to go about their business and leave people to practice their legal rights. As long as a school official isn't leading the prayers no law is broken. It's really very simple.

 
There's a right to free speech as well, but there are also limits and responsibilities that go with that (or any other) right.

People have been crying about thier &quot;rights&quot; to try to get away with all kinds of things.

Fortunately the Supreme Court (and not us anandtech smarties) gets to decide what's legitimate and what's not.
 


<< There's a right to free speech as well, but there are also limits and responsibilities that go with that (or any other) right. >>


No, not really. As long as they aren't slandering anyone or causing someone else harm (and offending someone isn't considered harmful), then the kids that are praying and congregating on their own time are completely within the law.


<< People have been crying about thier &quot;rights&quot; to try to get away with all kinds of things. >>


We're talking about kids that are gathering to pray, not a bunch of violent demonstrators trying to shut down a clinic. As long as the kids are peaceful, the school is required to allow them to practice their religious beliefs.


<< Fortunately the Supreme Court (and not us anandtech smarties) gets to decide what's legitimate and what's not. >>


Yup, and back in 1991 in the case Thompson vs. the State of Oregon the Supreme Court ruled that the kids could congregate and pray as long as they weren't in class (teachers are allowed to attend, but not lead in prayer) and as long as the gathering is peaceful. It was a big victory for the FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) and further strengthened the view that children under the age of 18 have certain enalienable rights, even in a government endorsed facility... strangely enough, this is also the precedent that's sighted to allow for juvenile offenders in state facilities to congregate and pray.
 
&quot;No, not really. As long as they aren't slandering anyone or causing someone else harm (and offending someone isn't considered harmful), then the kids that are praying and congregating on their own time are completely within the law. &quot;


I so wish that were true, i remember being punished for swearing in grade school🙁 Free speech my ass!!
 


<< I so wish that were true, i remember being punished for swearing in grade school Free speech my ass!! >>


Not anymore, these days it's much easier to get by with cursing in school than it is to get by with praying. :disgust:
 
I'm still in school and i saw an interesting spin on this last year. First off i have no problem with kids praying in school as long as it isn't led by teachers and on their own time. There were also school sponsored clubs at my old school that were christian based and i'm fine with this as well. however, there should be full rights for islamic based groups, jewish groups, hindu and every other religion as long as this is upheld it's all good. the spin at my old school was that there was a group started for students leading alternative life styles (ie a gay rights group). this group got so much flack, and was attacked by just about everyone including the christian group (forgiveness anyone). anyway, if the christian groups want to meet and their right to pray preserved, they have to be open minded to any other groups formation, whether or not they agree with that group.
 


<< the spin at my old school was that there was a group started for students leading alternative life styles (ie a gay rights group). this group got so much flack, and was attacked by just about everyone including the christian group (forgiveness anyone). anyway, if the christian groups want to meet and their right to pray preserved, they have to be open minded to any other groups formation, whether or not they agree with that group. >>


I totally agree. The gay rights group needs to file a complaint with the local school board so that appropriate action can be taken to preserve their rights. If that fails they need to seek an injunction.


<< There were also school sponsored clubs at my old school that were christian based and i'm fine with this as well. however, there should be full rights for islamic based groups, jewish groups, hindu and every other religion as long as this is upheld it's all good. >>


No arguments from me here either. As long as the gatherings are peaceful and orderly they have every legal right to do so.
 
eh? well prayer is generally a personal thing, i'm not sure you could even tell if someone was praying, or just resting their eyes or whatever. pretty damned obvious when you start cursing like a sailor.. yes i know, one can curse in your head, but thats not the same thing.. its not like you curse to your personal god or anything🙂
 


<< OK, since you used an Emoticon we can assume that statement is just a bunch of blaoney right? We shouldn't have to call you on it correct? >>


Of course not Red, I was being facetious. 🙂
 
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