political rhetorical tone & the shooting of a Congress woman

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Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
To the extent that any left leaning ideology becomes dogmatic and authoritarian, the same thing will apply. It isn't left or right so much, but how much you believe. It is certainty of correctness that leads to violence, no, because that's how violence is justified, no?

Certainly, I find common ways of looking at the world manifest themselves differently in different cultural contexts. I grew up in the dying days of communism in Bulgaria (a typical leftist authoritarian state before 1990) and went back for the first time in many years this summer. A friend of my dad's (formerly a colonel in the militia/police) dropped by for coffee and for 3 hours he couldn't stop rambling about everything from tobacco to immigration to his health problems. The entire time I may have said 10 sentences (as I knew how outrageous he'd find my liberal views), but he bore an uncanny resemblance to Glenn Beck - railing against immigrants, against the government, intense patriotism, wacky poetry (2 self-published books. Wanted to borrow money from me for a third one) etc etc. Had he been born in the US at the same time, I find it impossible that he would not have been a Tea Partier.

People like him and tea partiers are everywhere, much like liberals (I use that term loosely here) are everywhere - the particulars just manifest themselves differently.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,825
6,374
126
Both sides have made this Political and have attempted to Pigeon Hole him. I too automatically thought "Tea Party" or some Right Wing extremist(still looks most likely). However, these types of labels usually fall short of the clear picture of what's going through such a persons head.

Clearly the guy has Mental/Psychological issues, although I highly doubt he just snapped and started shooting. I really think there was Intent based upon Political belief here and not some random shooting as some want to argue. What those Political beliefs are somewhat align with the Tea Party or are popular with many Tea Party supporters, like Gold Standard for eg, but that doesn't mean he was part of the Tea Party nor does it make the Tea Party responsible. Pasting this on the Tea Party directly is/was certainly a premature mistake and reaction based upon the Times we live in, due to the Tea Parties prominence, mostly.

However, even if all the above is 100% the truth, I think we all should come to an agreement that the popular Rhetoric from Tea Party Candidates, certain Right Wing and Left Wing Media sources, and even Posters in P&N(Right or Left) has got completely out of control. If your side Loses an Election and/or an Issue you hold dear is Legislated completely opposite of your Preference, it is not a sign of the Apocalypse and/or the beginning of Hell on Earth. That kind of reaction is what feeds the guys like Loughner and in fact is the very thinking that makes him "Crazy". Yet daily we here and the Media repeat this nonsense, often semi-humourously, but nonetheless we do. Do we really expect to not influence the unstable by this nonsense?

It's time to fucking stop and to get back to Discussing Issues using Reason and Mutual Respect(aka Civility).
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
We've got a problem and by golly, there'd better be some answers. I'd say restricting more rights and freedoms will put the hurt on them there tea-baggin', Palin worshippin', Glenn Beck lovers.

Please plainly explain to us simple red-necks what the answer is to this problem. How are we to ensure a society in which nothing bad happens? I know you've got some answers. Quit throwing the blame around and let's hear some solutions.

If the problem is Palin, Beck and many others as you've said, surely the answer is obvious.

Frances Fox Piven is as left as they get. She's recently become more vocal about violence as a means to the overthrow of the government. There are a number of videos of her proposing violent revolution in recent history. Should she be silenced too? I mean some mentally ill individual might just be incited to violence by her words and shoot Palin. Surely we can't have that.

You know, there was a "Rally to Restore Sanity" a few months ago that was attended by quite a lot of people, because even before this happened, they thought things were getting out of hand in your country.

Great start will be you know, treating people on the left not as your enemies out to overthrow and destroy your country, but just regular people that have different opinion. Of course, even that is asking too much. Fox News is gonna tone it down for a few weeks, then they'll be back firing on all cylinders within a few months.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
91
You'll find certain truths you cling to are from a certain POV. I've already shown you multiple bullseyes on republicans, not democratic enough and other perceived enemies by progressive outlets. Hate is just as strong you just don't hear it when you agree with it.

There is a difference between presenting symbols to considerate individualistic intellectuals and sending commands to a drunken redneck army.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Most wouldn't define her as "liberal'.

She was a gun owner and supporter of 2nd amendment rights.

She was also strongly opposed to illegal immigration and had been pressuring the Obama admin to do something. (Her district is on the border).

I.e., I think your anology fails.

Fern

Yes, she definitely wasn't a liberal in Arizona. And Obama is a Keynian born Marxist Muslim atheist.

You birthers are a riot.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,371
12,515
136
You know, there was a "Rally to Restore Sanity" a few months ago that was attended by quite a lot of people, because even before this happened, they thought things were getting out of hand in your country.

Great start will be you know, treating people on the left not as your enemies out to overthrow and destroy your country, but just regular people that have different opinion. Of course, even that is asking too much. Fox News is gonna tone it down for a few weeks, then they'll be back firing on all cylinders within a few months.

I see you are living in the reality that I see.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
Guy was already a nut and already angry with Giffords long before there was a tea party and long before the examples of violent rhetoric that are supposedly the cause of his behavior.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_gunman

TUCSON, Ariz. – At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and had nothing to say.

"He was like ... 'What do you think of these people who are working for the government and they can't describe what they do?'" one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday. "He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy."
...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
You know, there was a "Rally to Restore Sanity" a few months ago that was attended by quite a lot of people, because even before this happened, they thought things were getting out of hand in your country.

Great start will be you know, treating people on the left not as your enemies out to overthrow and destroy your country, but just regular people that have different opinion. Of course, even that is asking too much. Fox News is gonna tone it down for a few weeks, then they'll be back firing on all cylinders within a few months.

I see what you're arguing here, but you're giving the "other side" too much credit (or too little, depending on how you think about it). Among a great many people in America, fervor is considered an acceptable substitute for a good argument. Or in other words, if your point of view lacks support, TALK LOUDER.

The TEA Party, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, "OMG MARXISM" people are an example of this...but nothing more. Feigned anger, feigned outrage, feigned angst about alleged violations of the constitution that could not be pinned down to actual legal arguments...this isn't actual extremism. Instead, it's an example of people trying to yell loudly enough that you don't notice how much detail their arguments are actually lacking. I'd argue that the "Rally to Restore Sanity" isn't to much an argument against extremism as it is an argument against piss-poor debating skills. Why else do you think the Glenn Beck crowd is so in love with words like "honor", "Constitution", "freedom", etc? It's because they have incredibly positive connotations that hopefully distract from the fact that there isn't a real argument there.

If it's not obvious by now, I very much disagree with TEA Party rhetoric, and I think it appeals to people for whom I have very little intellectual respect. But honestly, blaming them for this kind of violence is equally moronic, and I'm ashamed that many liberals are taking the all too obvious political approach here. You wouldn't catch me dead at a TEA Party rally, but after this event, I'm not feeling too good about my liberal ideology either.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
91
If it's not obvious by now, I very much disagree with TEA Party rhetoric, and I think it appeals to people for whom I have very little intellectual respect. But honestly, blaming them for this kind of violence is equally moronic, and I'm ashamed that many liberals are taking the all too obvious political approach here. You wouldn't catch me dead at a TEA Party rally, but after this event, I'm not feeling too good about my liberal ideology either.

If Nazi propaganda had been linked to the actions of the Sturmabteilung, and through outrage at the actions of the Sturmabteilung the effectiveness of Nazi propaganda was broken, would that have been a bad thing, even if the Sturmabteilung was more on the causative side than reactive side so the propaganda was not really a strictly linear causative factor?

Conservative propaganda may or may not have been responsible for this one event, but isn't it enough to see that it may as well have been, because that is the point of such propaganda?
That this one person may have been outside the particular pathway of conservative propaganda is not to say that conservative propaganda is not 100% aligned with this exact thing.
Control at all costs is the maxim, and the death of a 9 year old girl doesn't even cause them the slightest blip of reconsideration even when this is their path as well.
They just cast about for excuses instead.
"Not us!"
But it will be.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,371
12,515
136
Instead, it's an example of people trying to yell loudly enough that you don't notice how much detail their arguments are actually lacking. I'd argue that the "Rally to Restore Sanity" isn't to much an argument against extremism as it is an argument against piss-poor debating skills. Why else do you think the Glenn Beck crowd is so in love with words like "honor", "Constitution", "freedom", etc? It's because they have incredibly positive connotations that hopefully distract from the fact that there isn't a real argument there.

If it's not obvious by now, I very much disagree with TEA Party rhetoric, and I think it appeals to people for whom I have very little intellectual respect. But honestly, blaming them for this kind of violence is equally moronic, and I'm ashamed that many liberals are taking the all too obvious political approach here. You wouldn't catch me dead at a TEA Party rally, but after this event, I'm not feeling too good about my liberal ideology either.

Nice breath of fresh air. Koodos!
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
See, this is the reason I *HATE* politics. A person guns down innocent civilians and all everyone can talk about is political ambitions- that makes me SICK.

I read a quote once a while back that said"
"Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people."

People who vote Liberal and who vote Conservative are just that, STILL PEOPLE!! It's about time some people in this thread put aside their political affiliation and mourn in whatever way seems best for everyone whose life will be forever changed by this.

-Kevin
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
At this early time, the shooter appears pretty clearly to be a deranged individual, so I suppose it is possible that if he had not happened to open fire at a Democrat, he might have instead found a Republican (or Libertarian/Green/whatever) to fill with lead instead. I don't suppose we can ever know, unless the shooter himself says so, how much of an influence the overheated, falsely apocalyptic partisan rhetoric of the past few years may have affected his action. Nevertheless, most of that rhetoric has come from self-professed Media darlings of the right, and a common feature of persons with disordered thinking of the shooter's type seems to be an obsessive search for facts and patterns that support their odd interpretations of the world around them and how they percieve America through this rhetoric. While it's still too early to know for sure whether, say, for example: Angle's comment about 'second amendment solutions' may have directly influenced the shooter, but it is safe to say it surely doesn't help, especialy if some one this disturbed is listening and would be swayed as such. It's still gasoline being tossed in the direction of lit crazies.

I don't believe any politician is seriously inciting people to shoot other people, not even Sharron Angle. I think they're just playing with fire in the form of violent revolutionary rhetoric which serves to intimidate liberals into expressing public fear, knowing that liberal expressions of fear are to conservatives like the scent of blood in the water to sharks. But as far as sane people go, I'm not going to blood-libel even the craziest Liberal or conservative by saying that they would go around assassinating their political enemies.

Let us assume that much of the rhetoric that comes off as violence inspiring is not intended to actually incite violence, but is just used because using rhetoric like that gets attention, gets listeners and viewers, and sells books. They don't really want some one to rid them of these meddlesome politicians anymore then Henry II really wanted Beckett murdered.

The issue still remains that such extreme rhetoric and graphics, even if meant only as rhetorical devices, are being sold to crowd that you know contains an overrepresentation of those who are as unstable as this young man is and more.

A variety of commentators have been expressing concern for months that the sort of rhetoric being used by some elements of the Right (not all of the Right, but some), the portrayal of those who are not as Right as they are as "the enemy" that is in our sights, would inspire some crazy to do something like just like this. The response to those concerns has been to continue with the same inflammatory rhetoric.

If my initial impressions are correct, and this young man is a victim of schizophrenia, then his political opinions or associations don't matter. If you've ever known an actual full-blown schizophrenic, you know what I'm talking about, their thinking is a strangely warped imitation of rational thought. Its like they take the bird house kit, put it together according to the instructons, which they can read and understand, but cannot fathom why it won't fly.

If such is the case, then blaming anyone for influencing him is nonsense, his dog could have told him who to shoot just as easily as Rush or the Queen Sarah. I do blame the extreme right and the media talking heads on either side for poisoning our political dialogue, but that already was, is, and probably will continue to be.

As an Independent who leans slightly right on some issues and I would like to see a rise of some form of a legitimate Republican party. What I do hope to hear going forward is frequent, unequivocal denunciation of these violent tactics from the mainstream of the Republican party.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,371
12,515
136
At this early time, the shooter appears pretty clearly to be a deranged individual, so I suppose it is possible that if he had not happened to open fire at a Democrat, he might have instead found a Republican (or Libertarian/Green/whatever) to fill with lead instead. I don't suppose we can ever know, unless the shooter himself says so, how much of an influence the overheated, falsely apocalyptic partisan rhetoric of the past few years may have affected his action. Nevertheless, most of that rhetoric has come from self-professed Media darlings of the right, and a common feature of persons with disordered thinking of the shooter's type seems to be an obsessive search for facts and patterns that support their odd interpretations of the world around them and how they percieve America through this rhetoric. While it's still too early to know for sure whether, say, for example: Angle's comment about 'second amendment solutions' may have directly influenced the shooter, but it is safe to say it surely doesn't help, especialy if some one this disturbed is listening and would be swayed as such. It's still gasoline being tossed in the direction of lit crazies.

I don't believe any politician is seriously inciting people to shoot other people, not even Sharron Angle. I think they're just playing with fire in the form of violent revolutionary rhetoric which serves to intimidate liberals into expressing public fear, knowing that liberal expressions of fear are to conservatives like the scent of blood in the water to sharks. But as far as sane people go, I'm not going to blood-libel even the craziest Liberal or conservative by saying that they would go around assassinating their political enemies.

Let us assume that much of the rhetoric that comes off as violence inspiring is not intended to actually incite violence, but is just used because using rhetoric like that gets attention, gets listeners and viewers, and sells books. They don't really want some one to rid them of these meddlesome politicians anymore then Henry II really wanted Beckett murdered.

The issue still remains that such extreme rhetoric and graphics, even if meant only as rhetorical devices, are being sold to crowd that you know contains an overrepresentation of those who are as unstable as this young man is and more.

A variety of commentators have been expressing concern for months that the sort of rhetoric being used by some elements of the Right (not all of the Right, but some), the portrayal of those who are not as Right as they are as "the enemy" that is in our sights, would inspire some crazy to do something like just like this. The response to those concerns has been to continue with the same inflammatory rhetoric.

If my initial impressions are correct, and this young man is a victim of schizophrenia, then his political opinions or associations don't matter. If you've ever known an actual full-blown schizophrenic, you know what I'm talking about, their thinking is a strangely warped imitation of rational thought. Its like they take the bird house kit, put it together according to the instructons, which they can read and understand, but cannot fathom why it won't fly.

If such is the case, then blaming anyone for influencing him is nonsense, his dog could have told him who to shoot just as easily as Rush or the Queen Sarah. I do blame the extreme right and the media talking heads on either side for poisoning our political dialogue, but that already was, is, and probably will continue to be.

As an Independent who leans slightly right on some issues and I would like to see a rise of some form of a legitimate Republican party. What I do hope to hear going forward is frequent, unequivocal denunciation of these violent tactics from the mainstream of the Republican party.

Although I marginally disagree with the last two paragraphs, to me you have eloquently discribed the situation.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
91
See, this is the reason I *HATE* politics. A person guns down innocent civilians and all everyone can talk about is political ambitions- that makes me SICK.

This event doesn't exist in a vacuum. The sad fact is that we live in a society which has seen the growth of a propaganda system into a massive juggernaut. The affiliation doesn't even matter, what matters is that that system is pushing for EXACTLY what we have just witnessed.
If this does not break the unquestioning loyalty to a system that wants these things to occur, what will? If we whitewash that the system is calling for this exact same thing and just wave away the events with the excuse of "unconnected individualism," then there is no lever by which the slumbering can be roused out of their dream-state.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
This event doesn't exist in a vacuum. The sad fact is that we live in a society which has seen the growth of a propaganda system into a massive juggernaut. The affiliation doesn't even matter, what matters is that that system is pushing for EXACTLY what we have just witnessed.
If this does not break the unquestioning loyalty to a system that wants these things to occur, what will? If we whitewash that the system is calling for this exact same thing and just wave away the events with the excuse of "unconnected individualism," then there is no lever by which the slumbering can be roused out of their dream-state.

I have yet to hear any Liberal or Conservative politician lobby their supporters to incite violence (*Save for the obvious examples of Hitler et al)

Are we to define the Virginia Tech shooter as a Conservative? After all he meets quite a few things on some sort of Conservative check-list.

On the other hand I can see what you are saying. There has to be a stressor of some kind. I am just tired of hearing the "Are you happy now, Palin?" and the equivalent response from the right. I'm tired of seeing every little thing in society reduced down to politics (ie: I'm a Christian, therefore I must hate Obama... completely non-sequitor)

Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but I would argue that "massive juggernaut" you speak of is the media. A politician can say something completely benign, yet be, in essence, crucified for it. The same applies here- politicians arguing over fundamental beliefs and somehow it gets blown out of proportion enough that this happens.

-Kevin
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,390
29
91
Are you fucking stupid? The guy was far from a "godless liberal". A "liberal" would believe in a large government with central planning. This guy hated cops, said that almost all laws and "federalism" is unconstitutional, and wanted a gold standard currency. That is *FAR* from being a "liberal".

But don't let that stop you.

As far as these calls for a "paranoid schizophrenic", almost all of the Teabaggers can be called this for all of the bullshit they have been spewing about deal panels and conspiracies.

But don't let that stop you either. Deflect...deflect...

LOL, they don't build 'em much dumber than you.

Woops, looks like they do:

If Nazi propaganda had been linked to the actions of the Sturmabteilung, and through outrage at the actions of the Sturmabteilung the effectiveness of Nazi propaganda was broken, would that have been a bad thing, even if the Sturmabteilung was more on the causative side than reactive side so the propaganda was not really a strictly linear causative factor?

Conservative propaganda may or may not have been responsible for this one event, but isn't it enough to see that it may as well have been, because that is the point of such propaganda?
That this one person may have been outside the particular pathway of conservative propaganda is not to say that conservative propaganda is not 100% aligned with this exact thing.
Control at all costs is the maxim, and the death of a 9 year old girl doesn't even cause them the slightest blip of reconsideration even when this is their path as well.
They just cast about for excuses instead.
"Not us!"
But it will be.
 
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exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
It's time to fucking stop and to get back to Discussing Issues using Reason and Mutual Respect(aka Civility).

People still don't get it. You can discuss and respect and reason all you want with just words, but eventually one side or the other becomes law and has REAL effects and consequences on individual lives, and people are going to be angry and not want to give up what they have rightfully earned.

Until this is realized, the political divide in this country will continue to grow. I don't care how civil you are when you agree to disagree, but when it becomes a law and somebody somewhere ends up losing something personally valuable to them, it becomes REAL and is no longer just 'lively debate'; they are going to get angry. Politics isn't arguing about whether the color red or blue is better than the color green, and agreeing to disagree and walk away. Politics creates laws and uses threat of force to take things from people, tell them what they are allowed to own, what kind of car they are allowed to drive, how to raise their family, how much energy they are allowed to use, how much income they are allowed to earn, etc. People can't just walk away and agree to disagree when things are taken from them or their life altered negatively in some way.

Hence, government that governs least governs best. Lay out the basic rules about keeping your hands to yourself, but otherwise allow people to make their own decisions and don't interfere or force someone to take sides.

It's painful listening to how many people spout off about liberty and freedom and being a proud American on the 4th of July, or whenever there is a war, or disaster, but then these freedom loving wannabes will turn right around and bitch and moan about how there should be a law against something somebody 1000 miles away from them is doing.
 
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DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
91
I have yet to hear any Liberal or Conservative politician lobby their supporters to incite violence

You have missed where Republican politicians gave the party over to the conservative talk system. They are no longer in control of anything.

Without conservative talk beating the drums of, "Armageddon lies the way of the Liberal," Republicans have nothing. Their fortunes are thus linked to a system that can and will incite violence to further itself towards absolute, unquestioning power.

Are we to define the Virginia Tech shooter as a Conservative? After all he meets quite a few things on some sort of Conservative check-list.

It doesn't matter what he was. His actions show no sign of a greater system at work.
Until science tells us a way to make a fusion bomb out of a toaster and tap water, a lone wolf cannot hold a society hostage.
It is systems that control masses of people that are worrisome.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
It is systems that control masses of people that are worrisome.

Yes, TV and news media is very worrisome. :sneaky:

Can't just report the facts, that X and Y happened. Always have to put in their emotional 2 cents and put political emphasis on everything and tell you how you should feel about it.

For example, how many times are they going to emphasize "semiautomatic" and "extended capacity magazine" when covering the Tucson shooting this weekend? I mean really? Can it be any more obvious that the leftist news empire is planting scary keywords into their blind and brain dead viewer's heads in hope and anticipation of gun legislation being brought to the table again?

The scary thing is how many people don't know jack shit about the world and believe everything they see on TV. "It wasn't a movie, the NEWS said it, so it must be true!"

Yes, it's very worrisome to have mass media abused by irresponsible jack asses trying to build a case for their political agenda instead of just covering the event.
 
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DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
91
For example, how many times are they going to emphasize "semiautomatic" and "extended capacity magazine" when covering the Tucson shooting this weekend? I mean really? Can it be any more obvious that the leftist news empire is planting scary keywords into their blind and brain dead viewer's heads in hope and anticipation of gun legislation being brought to the table again?

On 9/11 Islamic terrorists got a hold of commercial airliners. Should the media have covered up this fact so as not to push the agenda that maybe we should limit their access to these types of objects?

I'm going to point out right now that he didn't have access to nukes. Dunno about you, but I'm rather glad about it.
Look out! Scaaaary liberal!
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
16,005
8,597
136
Yes, TV and news media is very worrisome. :sneaky:

Can't just report the facts, that X and Y happened. Always have to put in their emotional 2 cents and put political emphasis on everything and tell you how you should feel about it.

For example, how many times are they going to emphasize "semiautomatic" and "extended capacity magazine" when covering the Tucson shooting this weekend? I mean really? Can it be any more obvious that the leftist news empire is planting scary keywords into their blind and brain dead viewer's heads in hope and anticipation of gun legislation being brought to the table again?

The scary thing is how many people don't know jack shit about the world and believe everything they see on TV. "It wasn't a movie, the NEWS said it, so it must be true!"

Yes, it's very worrisome to have mass media abused by irresponsible jack asses trying to build a case for their political agenda instead of just covering the event.

Abuse of the mass media by the consumer, yes. But even before the viewer of said news has a chance to abuse the mass media to forward an agenda, the people who control the mass media, eg - Murdock, etc. will have interpreted and portrayed the news to forward an agenda of their very own.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,825
6,374
126
People still don't get it. You can discuss and respect and reason all you want with just words, but eventually one side or the other becomes law and has REAL effects and consequences on individual lives, and people are going to be angry and not want to give up what they have rightfully earned.

Until this is realized, the political divide in this country will continue to grow. I don't care how civil you are when you agree to disagree, but when it becomes a law and somebody somewhere ends up losing something personally valuable to them, it becomes REAL and is no longer just 'lively debate'; they are going to get angry. Politics isn't arguing about whether the color red or blue is better than the color green, and agreeing to disagree and walk away. Politics creates laws and uses threat of force to take things from people, tell them what they are allowed to own, what kind of car they are allowed to drive, how to raise their family, how much energy they are allowed to use, how much income they are allowed to earn, etc. People can't just walk away and agree to disagree when things are taken from them or their life altered negatively in some way.

Hence, government that governs least governs best. Lay out the basic rules about keeping your hands to yourself, but otherwise allow people to make their own decisions and don't interfere or force someone to take sides.

It's painful listening to how many people spout off about liberty and freedom and being a proud American on the 4th of July, or whenever there is a war, or disaster, but then these freedom loving wannabes will turn right around and bitch and moan about how there should be a law against something somebody 1000 miles away from them is doing.

You can't have everything you want, sorry. Complete Freedom is not possible. The best you can strive for is maximizing Freedom.
 
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boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
You know, there was a "Rally to Restore Sanity" a few months ago that was attended by quite a lot of people, because even before this happened, they thought things were getting out of hand in your country.

Great start will be you know, treating people on the left not as your enemies out to overthrow and destroy your country, but just regular people that have different opinion. Of course, even that is asking too much. Fox News is gonna tone it down for a few weeks, then they'll be back firing on all cylinders within a few months.
You know, I just can't get enough of foreigners telling me what they feel is wrong in my country. :rolleyes:

What's amazed me over the years is how the liberal mind feels that others are as easily influenced as they are. The idea that every thought, feeling and desire has been brought upon by some influence, some external force and that if that force is controlled and channeled in the proper way, that the outcomes will be different. Social engineering. You're practicing it here.

Violent acts of this nature are very few and far between. But in the liberal mind, these cannot be accepted as simply the acts of madmen, there must be an explanation. A reason and a "cure" must be found. No cost is too great either.

I have a sister who is bipolar. Manic depressive was the term used for many decades prior. The earlier term describes it far, far better. My wife had a terrible time trying to figure out why my sister did and said the things she did. My wife kept saying things like "it just doesn't make any sense." She was right of course, but the flaw in her thinking was that she was trying to apply reason to behavior that is unreasonable by its very nature. She was trying to apply the form of logic a sane person uses to the behavior of someone who is insane.

There are bad people in this world. Always have been and always will be. That is the explanation for the shootings in Arizona.

Your attitude that those of us that don't agree with your view of the world should roll over and adapt to your ways is unrealistic. Your post I quoted above is all over the map. You applaud the efforts of Glenn Beck and then later in the post belittle him. You are guilty of what you accuse those on the right of doing. You too, should learn to treat those on the right not as your enemy. Or is your side the one of "correctness"?

Within minutes of this event occurring, the media, the bloggers, the pundits on the left were all over this story with the angle that the shootings were the responsibility of the right. The name of the shooter wasn't known and the fate of those shot was not either. With virtually no information, the left had already made up its mind.

If you want to foist the blame for the state of my nation on my ideology, I will not accept that. But I will be more tolerant of your opinion than you sir, are of mine.