Political reform: Take the money and special interests out of the equation

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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It sounds like a good first step to removing the deep hooks "special interests" have in the American political landscape is by instituting some sort of campaign finance reform. Institute a cap, allow individuals-only donations, or finance it publicly somehow - each idea has its advantages and disadvantages, but I think the editorial below is illustrative of the basic problem that is crying out for a solution.

In Congress, fundraising's steep price

When all is said and done - and by the time you read this, it might be - the 2010 elections will have cost more than $2 billion, or even twice that amount, by some estimates. Those are staggering sums, leading some observers, such as Yahoo's Daniel Gross, to wonder whether, in a weak economy, we shouldn't have elections every year.

Some of that money has come from small donors, people who felt strongly about the direction of the country and dug into their own pockets to make it better. That's all for the good. But much of it has come from corporations trying to buy access with winners, secret donors trying to purchase the votes that will make them richer and ideological hit-groups that delight in the scurrilous attacks that candidates themselves would never make. I almost feel bad for our politicians - it's an unpleasant business they've chosen.

Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Ind.) is retiring this year. He didn't lose his race, and he wasn't down in the polls. He's just, well, leaving. And one of the reasons is that he's tired of raising money. "It's miserable," he said. "It is not uncommon to have a fundraiser for breakfast, for lunch and for dinner, and if you have spare time in between, you go to an office off Capitol Hill and you dial for dollars. Then the weekend rolls around, and you get on a plane and travel the countryside with a tin cup in your hand. And it gets worse each cycle."
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The problem, he argued, isn't just that raising money is unpleasant, or just that it gives the rich too much sway, or just that it makes the public cynical ("You want to be engaged in an honorable line of work," Bayh said, "but they look at us like we're worse than used-car salesmen"). The real problem is that it means lawmakers can't do their jobs.

"When candidates for public office are spending 90 percent of their time raising money," Bayh said, "that's time they're not spending with constituents or with public policy experts."

So, why don't the politicians do something about it? If raising money is so miserable and corrupting and distracting and discrediting, why not publicly finance campaigns? Or strip away the anonymity of outside groups? Or pass a bill that matches small-donor contributions, thus making it easier for politicians to fund their candidacies by exciting voters rather than lobbyists?

The answer is depressing: Few politicians in office like the current system, but they're better at it than everyone else is. They've got donor networks, relationships with lobbyists, corporate friends and activist groups that will help them out. Their potential challengers don't.

"The people in the position to make these rules have succeeded in the system as it exists," Bayh said. "Asking them to change the rules from which they've benefited is difficult."

Consider the lifestyle Bayh outlined: fundraisers three times a day and more on the weekends. Dialing for dollars. And we've not even talked about the money you're supposed to raise for your party to help others get elected.

"The United States Senate is a dues-paying organization now," Bayh lamented. "Junior members have to raise this much, committee chairs have to raise that much. Find that in a civics book."

...

So for all that the incumbents dislike the system, they tend to like the idea of reforming it even less. Dave Durenberger, a Republican who represented Minnesota in the Senate from 1978 to 1995, told me about his experience trying to reform campaign finance laws. "Phil Gramm was our campaign committee chair back then," he remembered, "and he tore my picture down in the campaign committee office. Connie Mack and Mitch McConnell came to me and said, 'You're going to kill us.'"
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
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"Take the money and special interests out of the equation"

The question to ask is, "why is it there in the first place?"

Remove the incentive, and it won't be there anymore.
 
Jun 27, 2005
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I don't know... people gathering to pool resources to promote views they share seems to be the purpose of the first amendment. I say take the chains off campaign spending. Make spending unlimited but accountable. If you or your group posts an ad it has to be clear that your group ran the ad and your group has to clearly account where and from who their money comes from.

Other than that... I say go for it.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,765
614
126
And just who will institute this political reform? The bought and paid for dudes in charge? LOL, the show is over.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
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McCain tried that. Obama decided that using his special interest money was more important.

LOL
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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"Take the money and special interests out of the equation"

The question to ask is, "why is it there in the first place?"

Remove the incentive, and it won't be there anymore.

That's a fair point. Shifting control and money downwards to the states/provinces would probably be quite effective in increasing accountability. Those state reps would actually be in their home office more to take care of constituent needs, too.

I don't know... people gathering to pool resources to promote views they share seems to be the purpose of the first amendment. I say take the chains off campaign spending. Make spending unlimited but accountable. If you or your group posts an ad it has to be clear that your group ran the ad and your group has to clearly account where and from who their money comes from.

Other than that... I say go for it.

Don't you end up incentivizing the best campaigner to take office, rather than the best people's representative? Or perhaps the person who best cozies up to very large organizations or particular market sectors, as companies could entirely fund their own hand-picked candidates into office?
 
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PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,765
614
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A major scandal won't even force it. They'll pass a bill called "Making Elections Fair Act of 2xxx" that will somehow include language that gives lobbyists even more influence, or at best does nothing but maybe require some different forms to be filled out. They'll claim victory, the show will continue.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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I don't know... people gathering to pool resources to promote views they share seems to be the purpose of the first amendment. I say take the chains off campaign spending. Make spending unlimited but accountable. If you or your group posts an ad it has to be clear that your group ran the ad and your group has to clearly account where and from who their money comes from.

Other than that... I say go for it.

Pretty much this. If someone wants to spend money on something let them. After all, it is theirs.

Patranus' point is spot on - McCain wanted to constrain spending and Obama said he did, until he figured out that he would have more money to spend if he didn't.

When Obama went back on his commitment we knew we had a politician that was just another unprincipled hack in contention.
 

kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
21,019
156
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How can you restrict spending on campaigns? If I want to spend $1,000 to send campaign literature to some people in my neighborhood, how can you outlaw that?

The ONLY reason big money wins elections is the laziness and apathy of the public. If people were sufficiently motivated to research candidates, then reach a conclusion based on their own research, the billions spent on attack ads and the like wouldn't even matter, and they would go away.

In my town it's not unusual for people to go vote for a straight party ticket without even looking at the names. They don't know very much because they haven't done any legwork on their own, so they figure whoever the candidates are from their party must be the right ones.

About a month before elections, I get calls from "polling research firms" who ask a bunch of questions about who I plan to vote for. After a few questions, they start asking questions like, "which of these issues concerns you the most about Joe Smith... his support of President Obama, his support for the healthcare bill, or his support of the stimulus bill?"

All they are doing is trying to find out what turns people off about a certain candidate so they can make new attack ads which pound on that topic. There were damn few political ads that actually told me what a candidate was FOR. I had to go to various voters guides online to find out.

When that type of campaigning doesn't work, and people refuse to be manipulated by half-truth ads, then the spending on campaigns will plummet because it will be seen as a waste of money.

One congressional winner in the area hammered his opponent in ad after ad, saying his opponent wanted to implement a 23% across-the-board sales tax "in this economy! How does he think we can afford that? We can't afford paying 23% more for medicine! Or food!" It made you think the opponent was crazy. The ads never mentioned that the 23% tax proposal would have also meant the ELIMINATION of the income tax.

If you didn't know the positions of the candidates, and were only guided by the mass media ads, you'd never have voted for the opponent. The ads were patently half-truths. And I didn't here one ad from the winner pointing out his agenda if elected.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
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Pretty much this. If someone wants to spend money on something let them. After all, it is theirs.

Patranus' point is spot on - McCain wanted to constrain spending and Obama said he did, until he figured out that he would have more money to spend if he didn't.

When Obama went back on his commitment we knew we had a politician that was just another unprincipled hack in contention.

Source?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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There is no way to limit campaign spending when government threatens to control virtually everything from people's ability to marry to people's ability to earn a living. Reduce the scope of government and the money will automatically lessen, but as long as government picks winners and losers among groups, industries, and even individual corporations, money will continue to rule. The stakes are simply too high to do otherwise.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,355
1,867
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I don't know... people gathering to pool resources to promote views they share seems to be the purpose of the first amendment. I say take the chains off campaign spending. Make spending unlimited but accountable. If you or your group posts an ad it has to be clear that your group ran the ad and your group has to clearly account where and from who their money comes from.

Other than that... I say go for it.

I disagree.
The First amendment is there to make sure everybody has a right to free speech. (note: PEOPLE not DOLLARS have the right to free speech.)

Otherwise, the system will work out such that the people with more resources have more speech rights, and that clearly goes against the grain of the constitution!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,876
6,784
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When you the brainwashed brain-dead take it upon yourselves to brainwash the millions of others that lobbyist money has to stop maybe it can be done by Constitutional amendment, but I'll believe it when I see it. It's pretty hard to revive the brain-dead.

One good thing about lobbyists, however, is that they have selfish aims, like corporate profit. If the people were able to get what they want we can see it's fear and death. Maybe for the sake of American children who aren't yet guilty of much, it is better that money controls everything. The American people themselves look to be very sick and self destructive.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
There is no way to limit campaign spending when government threatens to control virtually everything from people's ability to marry to people's ability to earn a living. Reduce the scope of government and the money will automatically lessen, but as long as government picks winners and losers among groups, industries, and even individual corporations, money will continue to rule. The stakes are simply too high to do otherwise.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

GaryJohnson

Senior member
Jun 2, 2006
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as long as government picks winners and losers among groups, industries, and even individual corporations

Isn't that the whole of what government does? If you removed their scope to do that, wouldn't that remove the need for any government at all?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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There is no way to limit campaign spending when government threatens to control virtually everything from people's ability to marry to people's ability to earn a living. Reduce the scope of government and the money will automatically lessen, but as long as government picks winners and losers among groups, industries, and even individual corporations, money will continue to rule. The stakes are simply too high to do otherwise.

Good point.

--------------------

I think given the SCOTUS's rulings on this we may have to have a constitutional amendment to affect any big reforms.

Fern
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Limiting special interest sounds nice, but no idea how it would ever be done. What people do with their money doesn't matter to me, in the current age if you can't use the available resources to see past the campaign $$$$ then perhaps you should save the effort of voting.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Good article, Yllus. It at least scratches the surface of how our democracy is not only broken but getting more broken.

We're on a road to where the ability of a small group can so effectively control public opinion, and who is elected, that as a practical matter it's hard to say we have democracy. It'll all be about being 'selected' by the powers behind the scene for a virtual 'appointment' to office, with the people given phony 'choices'.

To the extent that a large majority of Repulicans and many Democrats perhaps a smaller majority, are already well compromised and make a majority, we're there.

One by one, the people who aren't so bought and paid for can be picked off by anonymous, organized, out of distrcts/state contributions - this time was Grayson.

Next time we could lose Bernie Sanders, or Dennis Kucinich - some like Barbara Lee may be well enough entrenched, but when they leave, replaced by a corporatist.

Of course, there will be phony diversity with 'left' and 'right' corporatists who appear to argue a lot, kind of like 'Fox diversity'.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
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How can you restrict spending on campaigns? If I want to spend $1,000 to send campaign literature to some people in my neighborhood, how can you outlaw that?

I think we need to separate the two things, though of course they do get used for the same thing. Still, contributions are one thing and third party advertising is another.

I'm looking over Canada's campaign finance laws and third party advertising laws and they seem to work like this:

  • Individual contributions to political participants are limited to a maximum of $1,000 annually (adjusted for inflation).
  • Corporations, trade unions, and other unincorporated associations are prohibited from making contributions to registered parties, registered electoral district associations, leadership and nomination contestants of registered parties, and all candidates.
And in terms of third party advertising:

  • A third party may independently spend a total of $150,000 on election advertising. It cannot spend more than $3,000 on advertising to promote or oppose the election of one or more candidates in a given electoral district.
I imagine that the net effect is that special interests could still conceivably "buy" a candidate, but they'd have to come cheap ($3k). They could also still buy a party for $150k, but again you'd still see dramatically less cash flowing to parties. (Note: Canada allows unlimited spending on leadership races so I'm not as much holding it up as a model as one example to take note of.)
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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-snip
Don't you end up incentivizing the best campaigner to take office, rather than the best people's representative? Or perhaps the person who best cozies up to very large organizations or particular market sectors, as companies could entirely fund their own hand-picked candidates into office?

Under the system you propose:

- Who now gets "incentivised"?

- Who now has a built-in advantage?

- Are we really getting rid of the corruption etc, or shifting it?

I think limited money is going to greatly benefit those candidates who already have strong name recognition. That's going to be incumbants.

Are potential candidates who can mangage it going to run to cable news shows so they can improve their name recognition factor and better get their positions/ideas known? Will we then be basically voting for the 'talking heads' we're familiar with?

I can see how the constant pressure to raise funds sucks, if we elimnate/reduce it are we now stuck with ultra wealthy candidate (Corzine, Whitman etc) who will spend their own dough?

How will the 'Law of Unintended Consequences' manifest itself if we adopt these type changes?

-----------------

What corruption is being eliminated/reduced?

Will this affect shady land deals (e.g., Harry Reid), or Congresspersons' children getting fat jobs/contracts because of their parent(s) influence, or a spouse getting big gov contracts, or people stashing $100K in their freezers?

I don't think so.

As much as we all dislike the special interest money etc, I sometime think the MAIN problem is the power and influence these politicians have. That's why I think werepossum's point was a good one. When anyone has such power and influence over so many things the money will come to them (or relatives and friends).

Fern
 
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Oct 16, 1999
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Nothing is going to fix the problem as long as the average voter doesn't go beyond cable news, talk radio, and campaign advertisements in deciding their vote.