Police Tasers Nude Mentally-Ill Man

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: Nik

I didn't call for his death, so don't put words in my mouth.

You said "Nah, he should be put up on a railing, cuffed so he can't stop his fall, and tazed "
implying that the same outcome would occur.
Self-righteous much?

That's what I and others have implied from your posting (among other things).
If you say we can't imply your thoughts then you can't imply the thoughts of the officers involved in this.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: waggy
ugh those pictures are nasty.

presonally i think to many police really on the tazer far to much. this was one instance they shouldnt have used it. he was not in a position to hurt them.

Tasers are now used as a replacement for officers wrestling a person to the ground and handcuffing them. The problem with this is that they should be used as a replacement for firing a gun only. There are a number of medical conditions where a taser can have crippling or lethal effect.


So let's think about these exact circumstances. Would officers have EVER shot the person? Hell no, there was no call for it. So why did they use lethal force?


Sadly, officers are almost never held accountable for their actions.

Um, don't commit crime, don't get tasered?
You say officers aren't held accountable, what about criminals? To many times peoples 1st action is to blame a cop because you can't get over the fact that one caught you speeding. You fail to understand that they wouldn't be in the position they are in to use the taser if the criminal didn't do criminal things. But lets stop blaming bad guys since there is always an explanation as to why they acted the way they did.
If the guy in this incident was a mentally disturbed individual was it not HIS or HIS MOTHERS responsibility to make sure he was on his meds or was under control? If he ran out into traffic and a cop car happened to be driving by would you hold that cop responsible? What if it was just some poor shmuck?

police also have to take into account the guys mental state. they knew he had problems.

they also have regulations.

both of wich were ignored.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Terrible. It's too bad the art of communicating has been lost. I'm not saying the police could have successfully talked him down, but all they did was bark orders at him. I don't know whether the police feel pressure to deal with situations as quickly as possible, but it would have been beneficial for everyone involved if the police could have simply talked to him for a bit it would have bought them some time to consider a course of action. If they couldn't talk him down from the roof then it would have allowed them time to find something to cushion his fall.

Is 40 minutes not enough time? It's not like the walked up to the guy and tased him instantly.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: dbk
Originally posted by: waggy
ugh those pictures are nasty.

presonally i think to many police really on the tazer far to much. this was one instance they shouldnt have used it. he was not in a position to hurt them.

The man was out of control, ranting on for 40 minutes. He was nude, busted through some lady's apartment and was wielding an 8 ft flourescent light tube.

I think all they had to do was brace the man's fall. I would not usually consider 10-ft falls to be fatal but without the ability to brace yourself and falling headfirst - well, that's a whole different outcome.


AND none of that justified a tazer of a man on a ledge.

it was 10 feet, who would have thought a 10 feet fall would be fatal.

You don't know many dead roofers do you? I know (knew) two who fell a grand total of 15 feet. One slipped off his ladder carrying a bundle of shingles up one story and the other fell just over a story when the toe board gave out. Both hit the back of their head on concrete. Even without this direct knowledge, it pretty common sense when you constantly hear stories about people fall and do horrid shit to themselves. My mom slipped on ice three years ago and the wrist she broke is still bigger than the other one, and she still has a lump on her forehead, and her whole face was black the day after, and she could hardly even talk due to the pain, and she 5'2"!

I fell off a 2nd story roof as a kid. I'm still alive. I watched a roofer fall off the roof of a 4 story apt building and get up and go back to work. You can't say that just because one person fell 3 feet and died that that's the norm, nor can you say that someone has fallen 40 feet and lived is the norm, but being NYP they probably have bit mor edealings with people falling from heights, IE fire escapes ect and living thus they didn't think it would be a serious problem.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: dbk
Originally posted by: waggy
ugh those pictures are nasty.

presonally i think to many police really on the tazer far to much. this was one instance they shouldnt have used it. he was not in a position to hurt them.

The man was out of control, ranting on for 40 minutes. He was nude, busted through some lady's apartment and was wielding an 8 ft flourescent light tube.

I think all they had to do was brace the man's fall. I would not usually consider 10-ft falls to be fatal but without the ability to brace yourself and falling headfirst - well, that's a whole different outcome.


AND none of that justified a tazer of a man on a ledge.

it was 10 feet, who would have thought a 10 feet fall would be fatal.

You don't know many dead roofers do you? I know (knew) two who fell a grand total of 15 feet. One slipped off his ladder carrying a bundle of shingles up one story and the other fell just over a story when the toe board gave out. Both hit the back of their head on concrete. Even without this direct knowledge, it pretty common sense when you constantly hear stories about people fall and do horrid shit to themselves. My mom slipped on ice three years ago and the wrist she broke is still bigger than the other one, and she still has a lump on her forehead, and her whole face was black the day after, and she could hardly even talk due to the pain, and she 5'2"!

I fell off a 2nd story roof as a kid. I'm still alive. I watched a roofer fall off the roof of a 4 story apt building and get up and go back to work. You can't say that just because one person fell 3 feet and died that that's the norm, nor can you say that someone has fallen 40 feet and lived is the norm, but being NYP they probably have bit mor edealings with people falling from heights, IE fire escapes ect and living thus they didn't think it would be a serious problem.

people have survived falling out of a plane. does not mean it safe.

a person has a good chance of dieing from 10 ft if they can't control how they are falling or anything.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: FallenHero
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: FallenHero
Man, lots of monday morning quartbacking in this thread with a bunch of people that know nothing about tasers or police work.

so what they did was right?

In hindsight? Maybe so, maybe not.

On scene? I probably would have done the same thing. There is no way to predict 100% how a person is going to fall.

Had they charged him and a cop and the crazed man went over the edge in a wrestling match, would that have been better? What if the man stabbed the officer in the neck with a broken end of the light? (In which case lethal force is justified) What if the man jumped anyway?

There are tons of different scenarios which could play out, and I don't see how it actually did shows any level of incompetence or eagerness by police to want the man to die.

How many of these types of situations have you dealt with? What is your personal experience in dealing with suicidal people?

:laugh:

So you'd still taze him and let him free fall instead of cushining his fall or even fucking catching him instead of talking him down or wrestling him back in or even controlling the fall in any way?

Man, cops RULE.

The cops took a perfectly innocent situation and killed a man without provocation, without threat to themselves or anyone around them in any way.

Good job.

Ha this just proves how fucking stupid you are. This is the real world. You don't catch people falling from that height without posing risk to yourself.

If it was an innocent situation the cops wouldn't have been called. But I guess in your pathetic piss ant world, if you can't catch law breaker without any risk what so ever to the offender you should just let him go.
Go back to your 7th grade lit class.

 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Terrible. It's too bad the art of communicating has been lost. I'm not saying the police could have successfully talked him down, but all they did was bark orders at him. I don't know whether the police feel pressure to deal with situations as quickly as possible, but it would have been beneficial for everyone involved if the police could have simply talked to him for a bit it would have bought them some time to consider a course of action. If they couldn't talk him down from the roof then it would have allowed them time to find something to cushion his fall.

Is 40 minutes not enough time? It's not like the walked up to the guy and tased him instantly.

No kidding, they should have just shot him on sight. Mentally challenged people are a detriment to our country. We should award these brave officers medals for this!

As a matter of fact, they should go upstairs and blow the mother away as well, she's obviously of inferior genetic / ethnic status, and the lawsuit she might bring would just be a nuisance.

Maybe we can mark the windows of these people, or make them wear some kind of marking so we can know who they are immediately.

Oh yeah, vote McCain!
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: hungfarover
Originally posted by: FallenHero
Man, lots of monday morning quartbacking in this thread with a bunch of people that know nothing about tasers or police work.

What are you trying to say? People are reacting to the tragic ending to this guy's life because some cop made a bad choice.

Call me nuts, but I don't think a degree in criminology is required to see how poorly this situation was handled.

People are over reacting acting like this guy was not at fault in any way shape or form.
 

thepd7

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2005
9,423
0
0
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: waggy
ugh those pictures are nasty.

presonally i think to many police really on the tazer far to much. this was one instance they shouldnt have used it. he was not in a position to hurt them.

Tasers are now used as a replacement for officers wrestling a person to the ground and handcuffing them. The problem with this is that they should be used as a replacement for firing a gun only. There are a number of medical conditions where a taser can have crippling or lethal effect.


So let's think about these exact circumstances. Would officers have EVER shot the person? Hell no, there was no call for it. So why did they use lethal force?


Sadly, officers are almost never held accountable for their actions.

Wrong. I do not want cops to have to risk their lives, they do it enough. Someone has to get him eventually, why should a cop have to endanger their life (with this guy threatening to "take everyone with him") when they have a tool to subdue him?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: thepd7
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: waggy
ugh those pictures are nasty.

presonally i think to many police really on the tazer far to much. this was one instance they shouldnt have used it. he was not in a position to hurt them.

Tasers are now used as a replacement for officers wrestling a person to the ground and handcuffing them. The problem with this is that they should be used as a replacement for firing a gun only. There are a number of medical conditions where a taser can have crippling or lethal effect.


So let's think about these exact circumstances. Would officers have EVER shot the person? Hell no, there was no call for it. So why did they use lethal force?


Sadly, officers are almost never held accountable for their actions.

Wrong. I do not want cops to have to risk their lives, they do it enough. Someone has to get him eventually, why should a cop have to endanger their life (with this guy threatening to "take everyone with him") when they have a tool to subdue him?

I think most sane people here agree with you. It's just the timing of the tazer strike. It's been determined that they already violated police procedure with this instance, when all they had to do was wait for the mats to arrive.

Now, the only qualifying aspect that would justify this is if an officer or bystander was in immediate danger.

That brings up a question. Was someone trying to approach him? If so, why? If he was obviously irrational and determined to be mentally handicapped, why not wait for the mats and then pop him with the tazer?

If he was moving towards an officer or bystander, then I have no problem with the actions taken.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: spidey07
This is what is called "suicide by cop". Nothing new or unusual about it.

It seems that way. It seems a lot of people are posting based on the pictures but did not read the article.

"Morales was heard yelling, "You're going to kill me. I'm going to take everyone with me."

He also screamed, "I'm going to die. You're all going to die with me."
"He tried to come into my window and I ran out," said 40-year-old Tonya Wright.

He then picked up the light tube and waved it in the air before jabbing cops who had climbed out of the windows above.

Any bets if he worked at Lehmans Brothers? :D
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: spidey07
This is what is called "suicide by cop". Nothing new or unusual about it.

err thats not suicide by cop. he was mentally ill and not a danger to anyone but himself.

Because his mommy said he's sick? Just the facts ma'am.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: Psynaut
Ya know, I have consistently used as an example of how stupid 1/3rd of the US population is, that Bush could come onto tv and pull the heads off of kittens, and 1/3rd of the popluation would still vote for him, believing that "if Bush killed the kittens, then clearly the kittens deserved it."

Many of the responses in this thread are tthe same. It's like people think, that if the cops did something so obviously short-sighted, that the guy must have deserved it. For Pete's sake, it isn't like he was a suicide bomber. I can't believe how many people are willing to go along with the new 'violence first-ask questions later' policy of the US police.

This guy had clear mental problems. Tazering him and making him fall to his death was not the best way to handle the situation.

So what 1.3rd do you fall in? The 3rd that would allow someone to commit crime and harm others because you feel they have the right to act out and do whatever they want with no repercussions?
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
If he was naked with a florescent tube, yelling "your all going to die." It's hard to take him seriously. He was mentally Ill FFS, this was in no way suicide by cop. It's not like a mentally ill man thought "Gee I'm going to stand 10 feet off the ground and then stand there naked with a light bulb to make them taze me. Then when I have no control over my body maybe I'll randomly fall on my head." What kind of retarded suicide by cop plan is that?

In terms of his threat level, he was jabbing at the officer who was trying to encroach on him. They needed to back off and wait for the air cushion. Duh. He would obviously fall hard when tazered since he would lose control of his body. I swear common sense is like a #$%&ing super power these days.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: Eli
This makes me fairly angry. What the FUCK is wrong with the cops that did this?

I hope they are charged with manslaughter! An innocent man is dead for no god damn reason!

I don't even care if he wasn't mentally ill in any way, shape or form. His only weapon was a freakin' fluorescent tube.

This is absolutely ridiculous... Someone needs to get in extraordinary amounts of trouble for this.

Wow.

HE'S NOT INNOCENT. I would agree he is innocent if the cops kicked his door in and tased him while he was playing with his rubber ducky in the bath tub, but that's not what happened here.

You may see it as a light bulb, but in reality anything can be used as a weapon.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: dbk
Originally posted by: spidey07
Suicide by cop wikipedia. Seems to fit the defintion perfectly here. He announced he wanted them to kill him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop

"The factor that the entire phenomenon hinges on is the person's state of mind, and their desire to end their own life. This can be difficult to determine after the fact if they have died. Some cases are obvious, such as pointing an unloaded or non-functioning gun (such as a toy gun or starter's pistol) at officers, or the presence of a suicide note. Some suspects brazenly announce their intention to die before they act (e.g., the iconic declaration, "You'll never take me alive!"). However, many cases can be more difficult to determine, as some suspects with the desire to die will actually use deadly force on and even kill people before being killed (often romanticized by the expression "to die with one's boots on"). Many law enforcement training programs have added sections to specifically address handling these situations if officers suspect that the subject is attempting to goad them into lethal force."

What about the mentally-ill like this man? Grant you, we don't know exactly what was wrong with this man or if he were even mentally impaired, but that had to have played a part, right?

Did he know that his behavior would be considered as a threat to the police and result in the subsequent treatment by the police and ultimately to his death?

I guess we all need to know more about his mental history. Again, it's tragic that the mom had to witness his death. Wouldn't surprise me if a lawsuit is filed against the city. :(
Doesn't matter. His mental capacity is not the foremost concern of the officers. The safety of the officers and the other people around trump the safety of the OFFENDER 100% of the time. You can not put the OFFENDERs safety above anyone else, ever.

 

LS21

Banned
Nov 27, 2007
3,745
1
0
Originally posted by: thepd7

Wrong. I do not want cops to have to risk their lives, they do it enough.
Comes with the territory. Its a job, not volunteer work.


Originally posted by: thepd7

why should a cop have to endanger their life (with this guy threatening to "take everyone with him") when they have a tool to subdue him?

yeah, a fat man standing on a balcony with a light bulb

well fuck lets just shoot everything that looks mildly threatening. why waste time and take risks
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: Eli
This makes me fairly angry. What the FUCK is wrong with the cops that did this?

I hope they are charged with manslaughter! An innocent man is dead for no god damn reason!

I don't even care if he wasn't mentally ill in any way, shape or form. His only weapon was a freakin' fluorescent tube.

This is absolutely ridiculous... Someone needs to get in extraordinary amounts of trouble for this.

Wow.

HE'S NOT INNOCENT. I would agree he is innocent if the cops kicked his door in and tased him while he was playing with his rubber ducky in the bath tub, but that's not what happened here.

You may see it as a light bulb, but in reality anything can be used as a weapon.

He wasn't an immediate threat to anyone IMO.

Edited because it wasn't making any sense when I re-read olol. That was the basic gist.
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
80
91
Originally posted by: OverVolt


In terms of his threat level, he was jabbing at the officer who was trying to encroach on him.

Actually, in accordance with deadly physical force laws in NY he could have been shot at this point.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: Eli
Do you people saying he was making threats not have a brain?

He was naked. He was holding a fluorescent bulb. He was on a ledge. Does the ledge give him a tactical advantage or something? No. It gives him a disadvantage. There was no danger to anybody except himself.

Clearly, he was going to slay everybody! He could have jumped off the ledge and lunged at someone!

Training? You braindead folks keep mentioning training. Isn't this what your training is supposed to do? Do you really feel threatened by a naked mentally ill man with a fluorescent tube?

Why don't you let him jump, and when he breaks his legs, take the tube away from him?

Why don't you let him jump, and when he doesn't break his legs, use this training you speak of to disarm him?

An 8' long stick would be a better weapon than a fluorescent tube! He could have broken it over an officers head and it would have shattered. He would no longer be holding it, and the officer would be lucky to have a single cut.

He could have then lunged at an officer he was lucky enough to still be holding a piece of the tube. Oh noes! I am sure this man has cat like reflexes and agility. Oh wait, that's what your training is supposed to provide you with.

This is disgusting.

Cool this is off topic and I can throw insults.
Are you brain dead people that think cops are evil and do everything with the intention of killing and harming people that stupid?
Are you brain dead apologists so concerned about OFFENDERS that you think their rights trump law abiding citizens rights and safety?

Let me smash a 8 foot rob of glass over your head and you not be concerned about getting glass in your eyes. We have amazing medical technology but if you lose and eye or 2 you don't get new ones.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: OverVolt


In terms of his threat level, he was jabbing at the officer who was trying to encroach on him.

Actually, in accordance with deadly physical force laws in NY he could have been shot at this point.

Isn't it an example of pure idiocy to try to approach a mentally-ill naked dude on a ledge who is waving a light bulb around? I put the blame on the rank responsible for the orders.

Plan was simple :

Keep him jabbering, get some mats, zap him down, put the bracelets on, and take him to the loony bin.

 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: waggy
ugh those pictures are nasty.

presonally i think to many police really on the tazer far to much. this was one instance they shouldnt have used it. he was not in a position to hurt them.

Tasers are now used as a replacement for officers wrestling a person to the ground and handcuffing them. The problem with this is that they should be used as a replacement for firing a gun only. There are a number of medical conditions where a taser can have crippling or lethal effect.


So let's think about these exact circumstances. Would officers have EVER shot the person? Hell no, there was no call for it. So why did they use lethal force?


Sadly, officers are almost never held accountable for their actions.

Um, don't commit crime, don't get tasered?
You say officers aren't held accountable, what about criminals? To many times peoples 1st action is to blame a cop because you can't get over the fact that one caught you speeding. You fail to understand that they wouldn't be in the position they are in to use the taser if the criminal didn't do criminal things. But lets stop blaming bad guys since there is always an explanation as to why they acted the way they did.
If the guy in this incident was a mentally disturbed individual was it not HIS or HIS MOTHERS responsibility to make sure he was on his meds or was under control? If he ran out into traffic and a cop car happened to be driving by would you hold that cop responsible? What if it was just some poor shmuck?

The tools at an officers disposal are NOT there for his convenience. Here is a simple question for you: Could this situation have been resolved WITHOUT the death of anyone? The answer is absolutely YES. Officers have turned into a bunch of pansies who are too chicken to rick getting injured. How the hell do you think it has worked for the last thousand years?
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
JeffreyLebowski, you seem to think that if someone breaks the law, that provides total justification for the cops to do anything they want to that person, up to and including behaving in a negligent manner that leads to that person's death. You're so hung up on the fact that the guy was an "OFFENDER" or "CRIMINAL" (as you put it) that you aren't thinking straight (not to mention he is neither of those things until he is convicted in court; at the time he died, he was a suspect).

I don't know about other people, but I'm not an apologist by any means. I think it's unfortunate that the cops used poor judgment in this situation. I'm not calling for them to be strung up, but are you able to at least acknowledge that this was not the smartest course of action? Or are you going to keep insisting that the cops should be completely absolved of any blame for the simple reason that they are cops? Remember, they are people to, and they can make mistakes. Argue all you want that their mistake wasn't that large, but don't argue that it wasn't a mistake at all. Anytime someone dies as a result of police actions, unless that death was the only way to protect someone else, it means that at least a small mistake was made.