Police didn't know about cigar theft till after Browns death, and clerk didn't call

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LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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Explain the bullet wound in the palm of the hand? The shots in the arm.. which are all consistent with someone having their hands up.

In addition, the Ferguson police wouldn't and still haven't released the clothing Brown wore so that the 3 ME's can test for gun powder residue. If there is gun powder residue then Brown was very close up and personal with the officer, but if there is none, then those shots were fired at a distance. They are also withholding the number of bullet casings from the investigators, and that would give a clearer picture of the actual number of shots fired. They pulled one bullet out of the brick in a nearby building so that makes 7 shots so far.

The county ME has the clothing. It's evidence in a criminal case. They can't hand it over to Baden. The Federal ME will get it, though.

The county ME has finished the official autopsy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...t-from-the-front-had-marijuana-in-his-system/

That's two autopsies down, and one to go, with nothing damning for the officer.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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Right, makes it seem like the kid was facing him, but it's really allll speculation at this point, I get that. Either way I find it very hard to believe anybody could get shot in the crown of the head while running away, even if you were in the process of falling down.

I'm not a cop and I don't know standard procedure, but generally speaking aren't people asked to face AWAY from police and do the whole, lock your fingers, place on your head and walk backwards toward me, type of thing? Only way I could see getting shot in the crown of the head from behind is if you were on your knees and very close to the gun.

In which case we'd have very obvious signs of a closely fired handgun on the top of the head, which we don't have.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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Explain the bullet wound in the palm of the hand? The shots in the arm.. which are all consistent with someone having their hands up.

I don't agree with you. I don't think they are consistent with hands up. That's what I'd say in court.

Let it go.

I can't explain this to you.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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LTC86 whoever you are, I completely disagree with you, and I suspect more info will come out, and as I said before I don't think it will be so easy to let this officer just go. They are going to have to arrest him. It will happen, mark my words.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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The county ME has the clothing. It's evidence in a criminal case. They can't hand it over to Baden. The Federal ME will get it, though.

The county ME has finished the official autopsy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...t-from-the-front-had-marijuana-in-his-system/

That's two autopsies down, and one to go, with nothing damning for the officer.
I dunno. If he was shot from the front, but NOT at very close range, then he was neither attacking nor escaping. Even accepting that he had slugged the officer (not really proven, but alleged from the report about the officer having to get medical treatment for swelling on his face) it's difficult to see how an unarmed young man should be shot. Hard to accept the officer being stunned from the blow and yet also landing so many shots unless it's very close.

The palm shot is a classic defensive injury, holding up the hand to ward off the attack. The arm wounds may (or may not) be the same. Unless the wounds demonstrate stippling, I'm guessing the officer faces federal charges.

The OP did take me in with his "cheap cigars" ploy. A $50 box of cigars is a blow to a small business and not something we should accept as a gimme.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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Ferguson_Autopsy_By_Dr_Baden.JPG


My observations of Dr. Micheal Baden's preliminary autopsy on the unarmed teenager, Michael Brown, who was shot and killed by Ferguson Officer Darren Wilson:

1) Three bullets entered the inside arm and one bullet entered in right palm: suggesting Brown had his arms in the surrender position.

2) Bullet in the top of Mike Brown’s head was "likely the last of bullets to hit him" illustrating his head was down which supports an eyewitness statement that

"when Brown then raised his arms, the officer shot him two more times, killing him"

and another eyewitness who said:

"Brown turned around with his hands in the air and said, 'I don't have a gun. Stop shooting!' The officer then shot Brown several more times, killing him"
and another eyewitness who said

"As he runs the police get out of his vehicle and he follows behind him, shooting. And the kid's body jerked as if he was hit from behind, and he turns around and puts his hands up like this, and the cop continued to fire until he just dropped down to the ground and his face just smacks the concrete."

3) Dr. Baden said the bullet entering the top of Michael Brown's head "likely the last of bullets to hit him" which also supports statements by eyewitnesses.

Brown’s skull, suggesting his head was bent forward when it struck him and caused a fatal injury, according to Dr. Michael M. Baden, the former chief medical examiner for the City of New York, who flew to Missouri on Sunday at the family’s request to conduct the separate autopsy. It was likely the last of bullets to hit him

4) The autopsy suggests Michael Brown did not, I repeat, did not have control of Darren Wilson's gun because no gun shot residue was found anywhere on Brown's body and that includes Michael Brown's hands.
DR. BADEN: no gunpowder was present on his [Brown's] body.
Baden's statement seems to contradict Chief Belmar who said:

“Within the police car there was a struggle over the officer’s weapon,” Chief Belmar said. “There was at least one shot fired in the car.” At that point, the police said, Officer Wilson left his vehicle and fatally shot Mr. Brown.

Since no gunpowder was present on Brown's hands, and if a "shot fired in the car" was it fired as Officer Wilson was trying to pull his gun to shoot Brown? Or, was a "shot fired in the car" after the car had left the scene and after

Brown was already dead?

Or, was not shot fired "in" to the car, but rather did Officer Darren Wilson fire his gun at Mike Brown while Wilson was still sitting "in the car" as eyewitnesses have stated?

Dr. Baden went on to say

“In my capacity as the forensic examiner for the New York State Police, I would say, ‘You’re not supposed to shoot so many times,’"

Great point. "You’re not supposed to shoot so many times."

I should note here that Dr. Baden's autopsy is only preliminary, due, in part, to the fact that Dr. Baden was not allowed to examine Michael Brown's clothing nor allowed to examine X-rays of Brown.

Many questions are still unanswered.

UPDATE: I am including a link to Barbara Morrill's diary that covered the press conference Dr. Baden gave today:

7:58 AM PT: From the press conference, saying the two shots to the head were both "back to front" and "supports what witnesses said," and "that this officer should have been arrested."

8:11 AM PT: Says shot to lower arm "consistent" with either facing away or having arms up to surrender.

8:13 AM PT: Dr. Baden says there was no evidence on Brown's body of a struggle.

Link Source
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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LTC86 whoever you are, I completely disagree with you, and I suspect more info will come out, and as I said before I don't think it will be so easy to let this officer just go. They are going to have to arrest him. It will happen, mark my words.

If every piece of demonstrable evidence is scrupulously examined, if the very best of forensic science is applied, if the facts clearly show innocence and that's determined by the wisest, most knowledgeable, least prejudiced minds and all is plainly laid out with the inescapable conclusion that the officer did no wrong, you'd not easily let this officer go. You would find some conspiracy, some evil intent, something- anything- to slander, malign and wrong. If that fails you'll simply repeat your attempts at injustice on another.

Heaven help the officer if the slightest, most miniscule, the most ridiculous argument can be made for guilt, you'll seize on it like you did the stupendous gaff in saying the police didn't know simply because one specific person didn't make the call although no one in the story says that a call wasn't made.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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The OP did take me in with his "cheap cigars" ploy. A $50 box of cigars is a blow to a small business and not something we should accept as a gimme.

You didn't notice "Police didn't know about cigar theft till after Browns death" and the basis for that is the clerk didn't call, but then we learn that a customer did and the OP clearly states this fact?
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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If every piece of demonstrable evidence is scrupulously examined, if the very best of forensic science is applied, if the facts clearly show innocence of Michael Brown and that's determined by the wisest, most knowledgeable, least prejudiced minds and all is plainly laid out with the inescapable conclusion that the officer did do wrong, you'd not easily let this officer go to jail. You would find some conspiracy, some evil intent, something- anything- to slander, malign and wrong. If that fails you'll simply repeat your attempts at injustice on another and continue your character assassination of Brown.

Heaven help the family if the slightest, most miniscule, the most ridiculous argument can be made for guilt of Brown, you'll seize on it like you did the stupendous gaff in saying the police did know simply because one specific customer made the 911 call although and not the store clerk or employees, you will look for any reason to protect a corrupt cop.

There fixed that for ya...tit for tat.. eh?
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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7:58 AM PT: From the press conference, saying the two shots to the head were both "back to front" and "supports what witnesses said," and "that this officer should have been arrested."

I can't see any holes in the back of the head on the drawing. Not even one, let alone two.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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I'm going to need to hear Baden say that the head shots were back to front.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
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I think it is clear that many of you have made up your mind, just like in the Trayvon case, he is a thug therefore he deserved to die.. all of this is BS.

Neither of the kids deserved to die. But as with Trayvon Martin, this Brown kid put himself in a bad situation. Sure Trayvon martin was profiled by Zimmerman.... because it turned out Trayvon was an experienced thief. He confronted Zimmerman by bashing his head and the rest his history.

This Brown kid lifted some cigars, was shown in pictures flashing gang symbols, and was not the totally innocent kid everyone is portraying.

I can't comment on the later case because we still don't know 100% what transpired. But if it turns out Brown attacked the police officer, tried to get his gun, and then was shot by an adrenaline filled police officer... I won't have a whole lot of sympathy. The police officer wants to go back to his family after work as well.

We all make choices. Now if I got shot by a police officer tomorrow it will likely be cause the officer fucked up in some bad way... not because I was out stealing cigars, attacking a cop, etc.

There are too many cases of police using deadly force when it is not warranted. This is a growing problem in the U.S. as more people have been killed by police in the last decade then U.S. soldiers who were killed in Iraq. If this turns out to be a malicious act by the police officer... then I hope he gets prison time since he should have picked a different line of work if he couldn't handle it.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
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I don't know how anyone can watch Crump (Brown Family Attorney) at work and take that guy seriously.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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There are too many cases of police using deadly force when it is not warranted. This is a growing problem in the U.S. as more people have been killed by police in the last decade then U.S. soldiers who were killed in Iraq. If this turns out to be a malicious act by the police officer... then I hope he gets prison time since he should have picked a different line of work if he couldn't handle it.

Agreed...
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
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I can't see any holes in the back of the head on the drawing. Not even one, let alone two.

It doesn't seem like any of the markings are on the back, for any of the wounds. This could be all of them grazed the kid (minus the apparent fatal head shot), or assuming the officer was holding JHP, the bullets mushroomed, fragmented and stayed within the body.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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It doesn't seem like any of the markings are on the back, for any of the wounds. This could be all of them grazed the kid (minus the apparent fatal head shot), or assuming the officer was holding JHP, the bullets mushroomed, fragmented and stayed within the body.

I'm going with "Baden never said that." until I hear him say it.
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
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I'm going with "Baden never said that." until I hear him say it.

Yeah I'm just speculating at this point which is kind of not a great idea. I just found it peculiar that there didn't seem to be any markings on the autopsy sheet indicating wounds on the rear side of his body.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Agreed...

Of course no recognition from the OP about the rest of the post he quoted, just the part that fits with his cop hate. It's rather ghoulish how much he's desperately hoping for a Hail Mary that vindicates his worldview that the officer in premeditation killed Brown in cold blood.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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I don't agree with you. I don't think they are consistent with hands up. That's what I'd say in court.

Let it go.

I can't explain this to you.


Here is what Dr. Michael Baden said in a conference with the media:

Dr. Michael Baden said no signs of a struggle were revealed in his autopsy of Brown's body, conducted after an official examination by the St. Louis County medical examiner's office.
And forensics consultant Shawn Parcells, who assisted Baden, said the findings are consistent with witness reports that Brown may have been shot as he walked away and that he was shot again with his hands up.


New source link
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Of course its relevant.

The fact that Brown was robbing stores mere minutes before his police confrontation shows that he was not some little innocent boy.

It also establishes that Brown might have reasons for acting badly when confronted by the police.
not relevant at all as far as the Cop who shot Brown in cold blooded murder knew...
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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It's clear to me that you've already made up your mind on this and you're simply using this and any other piece of news as confirmation bias to support your predetermined conclusion. And predictably the other side (see Nehalem) is doing the same thing in response but in the opposite direction.

I wonder what made the OP so hateful and distrustful of the police to the point of assuming they routinely murder black suspects and recommending blacks resist arrest as a matter of course. Did a cop fuck his wife, kick his dog, or is he simply a neckbeard rebel wannabe trying to gain street cred by adopting a "down with the pigs!" posture?

fair question....simple answer--Police are Not to be trusted!!